Another no knock warrant fatality

[SHUSA]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Recently our team decided to conduct some research. We distributed a survey designed to help us learn more about where and how gun owners keep their firearms during the night. We isolated the responses to just those from gun owners who say they do keep the gun near or on the bed when sleeping...

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ahh there it is. but i was told law abiding citizens dont do that? how could that be?

he used the term "law abiding citizens" , but we all know hes talking about something else. hard to come back from that.

 

[SHUSA]

So you are insinuating that I assume he is not law abiding because of his race. Let me demonstrate how wrong you are. First, I said assume he was a law abiding citizen in my post. However, there was 9 seconds of the police shouting their presence and shouting search warrant before the police shot him. He reached for his gun and grabbed it during this time. That actually makes him not law abiding because a law abiding person would raise their hands in the air not grab a gun.

Second, when people come to burglarize you or kill you in your home, they do not make a bunch of noise. It is quite the opposite, they come in with stealth and silence in order not to alert you to what is about to go down. Does it make any sense that someone comes in looking to kill a person shouting "hey, I am coming to kill you!"

Third, what makes you so knowledgeable about no-knock warrants that it is moronic? Have you ever been on a raid? Or would you rather put an officer's life in danger even more than what it is. Perhaps you just want the criminals to get rid of all incriminating evidence before the police come in. Lets actually make it harder to prosecute people. Law enforcement is a tough job. They are dealing with criminals. In this specific case, they are looking for evidence of a murder or the actual murderer himself. Do you have any idea how dangerous of a situation this is for police. They are going into an apartment looking for a guy who committed a murder and a guy comes grabs a gun when you enter?

so you think this is working? you want prosecution? america is built on innocent into proven guilty, not the other way around. no knocks have proven to condemn the innocent. in a virtual entrapment sort of way. if its dangerous for the officers, dont do it.

did they have the right house? could they not fathom that other people will be there?

and btw law abiding citizens are allowed to defend themselves from intruders. absolutely nobody would realize those are policeman in the dark while waking up abruptly from sleep. just a bunch of noise. and its laughable anyone thinks otherwise. he had 9 seconds to reach or he slept with the gun? his finger wasnt on the trigger. oops!

theres got to be a better way. i mean, did they catch the murderer??

 

[Pirata]

that video doesn't show any of that.

Did you watch the video?

It absolutely shows it.

also tells you he wasnt ready to shoot anybody. hes sleeping on the couch with other belongings next to him.

You can't look at that picture and conclude he was not ready to shoot. That is exactly where yo hand and trigger finger would be. The movement from where his trigger finger was to firing would take less than a second.

Black man shot to death by Minneapolis police wasn't named in warrants

Authorities identified him as Amir Locke, 22. Body cam video shows him wrapped in a blanket on a couch, then displaying a handgun when officers entered.

www.cbsnews.com

The question I have is about the warrant. Was it Locke's apartment? If so, why a no-knock on that apartment? If it was not Locke's apartment, was it the apartment of the person name in the warrant. If so, what was Locke doing in that apartment.

The articles I have seen are silent on these questions. Depending on the answers, it completely changes the situation.

From: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisaki...ooting-by-minneapolis-police/?sh=43e8ee723ec0

WHAT WE DON’T KNOW​

Locke’s connection, if any, to the homicide investigation that precipitated the police raid. Huffman said the homicide investigation was being handled by the St. Paul Police Department. The Minneapolis Police Department did not immediately respond to a Forbes request for comment.


The thing they are not silent on is that he was Black. It plays to certain narratives but has nothing to do with why he as shot.

 

[cernjSHU]

so you think this is working? you want prosecution? america is built on innocent into proven guilty, not the other way around. no knocks have proven to condemn the innocent. in a virtual entrapment sort of way. if its dangerous for the officers, dont do it.

did they have the right house? could they not fathom that other people will be there?

and btw law abiding citizens are allowed to defend themselves from intruders. absolutely nobody would realize those are policeman in the dark while waking up abruptly from sleep. just a bunch of noise. and its laughable anyone thinks otherwise. he had 9 seconds to reach or he slept with the gun? his finger wasnt on the trigger. oops!

theres got to be a better way. i mean, did they catch the murderer??

This whole post is idiotic.
1) "No-knocks condemn the innocent, in a virtual entrapment sort of way" ????
No offense, but this makes no sense and and you are spewing words you have no idea what their meaning is. Condemn he innocent? How, the search warrant by having it a no knock makes them guilty before a trial? lol. Virtual entrapment? lol. this is nonsense.
2) "if its dangerous for the officers, don't do it."
So, you would rather let murderers get away than apprehending them because it is dangerous. Sorry, this is just so ridiculous to say that we should let the dangerous criminals be free because it is dangerous. Here is a news headline. Police officer's jobs are dangerous. You know why? Cause they are trying to catch and arrest dangerous people.
3) "nobody would realize those are policeman in the dark while waking up."
Hmm, does the shouting of police repeatedly may have given a clue about that.
Again what experience do you have to say that it is laughable. Let me guess, none.
4) "His finger wasn't on the trigger."
So what? He grabbed a gun. In the thousandth of a second of when police see the gun, you think they are able to see or have time to judge whether his finger is on the trigger? Or do you think they are just looking at the fact that he reached for a gun.
5) "did they catch a murderer?"
You have not the slightest clue of how difficult it is to not only find out suspects of who may have done the murderer but to find the evidence in order to charge and try the murderer. No-knocks are an important tool needed for officer safety when confronting a possible dangerous situation. btw, Not all search warrants are no-knock.

 

[HALL85]

yea , you did. youre clearly implying it. law abiding citizens store their guns in a safe place, and this guy isnt doing that. so why say that? hmm? youre implying hes not a law abiding citizen. based on what? his legal gun and non criminal record? or is it something else? now im implying something about you, dont worry i didnt say it.

Implying…lol. At least you’re consistently ignorant about gun ownership.

 

[SHUSA]

This whole post is idiotic.
1) "No-knocks condemn the innocent, in a virtual entrapment sort of way" ????
No offense, but this makes no sense and and you are spewing words you have no idea what their meaning is. Condemn he innocent? How, the search warrant by having it a no knock makes them guilty before a trial? lol. Virtual entrapment? lol. this is nonsense.
2) "if its dangerous for the officers, don't do it."
So, you would rather let murderers get away than apprehending them because it is dangerous. Sorry, this is just so ridiculous to say that we should let the dangerous criminals be free because it is dangerous. Here is a news headline. Police officer's jobs are dangerous. You know why? Cause they are trying to catch and arrest dangerous people.
3) "nobody would realize those are policeman in the dark while waking up."
Hmm, does the shouting of police repeatedly may have given a clue about that.
Again what experience do you have to say that it is laughable. Let me guess, none.
4) "His finger wasn't on the trigger."
So what? He grabbed a gun. In the thousandth of a second of when police see the gun, you think they are able to see or have time to judge whether his finger is on the trigger? Or do you think they are just looking at the fact that he reached for a gun.
5) "did they catch a murderer?"
You have not the slightest clue of how difficult it is to not only find out suspects of who may have done the murderer but to find the evidence in order to charge and try the murderer. No-knocks are an important tool needed for officer safety when confronting a possible dangerous situation. btw, Not all search warrants are no-knock.

1) So Locke was guilty of something? you just said that. wow.
2) youre the one using "its dangerous" as your argument for no knocks. if you say police
officers jobs are dangerous, then ok put them out in the field or knock.
3) this is so idiotic, just shows how delusional you are. nobody would have any clue its police. they are sleeping, THEY ARE NOT AWARE.
4) his finger not being on the trigger isnt an argument for the police shooting. if he has the gun the police have to assume hes shooting. but the fact he did NOT have it on the trigger meant he was not planning to shoot. innocent man. he wasnt intending to fire, he just didnt know what was going on. further proof. if he was with his gun "for a reason" then he would be blasting, not exercising proper trigger control. again, many times people have said hes not an abiding gun owner.
5) so they didnt catch the murderer? he wasnt even there? how do you explain an innocent man dead for doing nothing illegal?

if this happened to your family youd be singing a different tune. thats for damn sure.

 

[SHUSA]

Implying…lol. At least you’re consistently ignorant about gun ownership.

youre the one who just got hit with being totally wrong about gun ownership. amd also nice deflection for the fact you got caught assuming things about this man for a certain unsaid reason. red handed. sad but not surprised for this board.

 

[HALL85]

youre the one who just got hit with being totally wrong about gun ownership. amd also nice deflection for the fact you got caught assuming things about this man for a certain unsaid reason. red handed. sad but not surprised for this board.

Several knowledgeable posters have called you out for your ignorance. Keep trying.

 

[SHUSA]

Several knowledgeable posters have called you out for your ignorance. Keep trying.

only cern has called me ignorant but failed in all his points. he even went as far as to call the man guilty lol. pushing his delusion that barging in at 3am pitch black is fine because they yelled "police" to someone in REM sleep. who is ignorant?

theres no trying, its your words. keep deflecting. weather nice up there?

 

[cernjSHU]

1) So Locke was guilty of something? you just said that. wow.
2) youre the one using "its dangerous" as your argument for no knocks. if you say police
officers jobs are dangerous, then ok put them out in the field or knock.
3) this is so idiotic, just shows how delusional you are. nobody would have any clue its police. they are sleeping, THEY ARE NOT AWARE.
4) his finger not being on the trigger isnt an argument for the police shooting. if he has the gun the police have to assume hes shooting. but the fact he did NOT have it on the trigger meant he was not planning to shoot. innocent man. he wasnt intending to fire, he just didnt know what was going on. further proof. if he was with his gun "for a reason" then he would be blasting, not exercising proper trigger control. again, many times people have said hes not an abiding gun owner.
5) so they didnt catch the murderer? he wasnt even there? how do you explain an innocent man dead for doing nothing illegal?

if this happened to your family youd be singing a different tune. thats for damn sure.

SHUSA, I am trying to not be mean to you. However, either you do not live in reality or you have reading comprehension issues or a combination of both. First, I never said Lock was guilty of anything. I rebutted your argument in which you said no-knocks condemn the innocent. I said how do no-knocks search warrants make him guilty before trial? the answer is that it does not and thus does not condemn a person.

I don't know of any cop who want to try to go and arrest a murderer and knock on the door and say "Police here! We are here to arrest you." If you do not see the danger in this, you clearly have no regards for police. And you have no regard in capturing dangerous criminals.

I'm delusional. Ok, I have been on no-knock raids. I have talked the officers on no-knock raids. The people whose house is being searched absolutely know it is the police within a matter of a couple of seconds. Now, will there be a small percentage of cases in which a person is very confused and does not realize it, that may be true. However, when weighing officer safety with this is infintisimal percentage of people that may just not get it, I am going to weigh on the side of the officers.

Somehow you know what the that his finger not on the trigger means that he was not planning to shoot. This is contradictory to all his other actions by grabbing the gun in the first place. Perhaps when he grabbed the gun in his haste, that is where is finger landed just before switching it to the trigger. But you obviously could read minds through a video tape.

How do you know that this person wasn't trying to grab a gun to shoot the police knowing full well that it was indeed the police? Do you not see that as a possibility? Do you need a criminal conviction in order not to have this desire or outcome? Or would you rather have a police officer shot and perhaps murdered before the police fire at an armed person?

There was a nurse working at Hackensack Hospital who lit a co-worker on fire and then hit her in the head with a wrench. Presumably, he had no record in order to pass a background check. Are you saying that a person without a record can't commit a crime?

He died not for nothing? His actions did not cause his death? He died because he picked up a gun when the police were there. That is why he died. This is not for nothing. If he didn't pick up the gun, he would be alive.

 

[SPK145]

3) this is so idiotic, just shows how delusional you are. nobody would have any clue its police. they are sleeping, THEY ARE NOT AWARE.

Add from that video, how could anyone tell it's the police, they were all screaming together, I couldn't make out what they were screaming.

4) his finger not being on the trigger isnt an argument for the police shooting. if he has the gun the police have to assume hes shooting. but the fact he did NOT have it on the trigger meant he was not planning to shoot. innocent man. he wasnt intending to fire, he just didnt know what was going on. further proof. if he was with his gun "for a reason" then he would be blasting, not exercising proper trigger control. again, many times people have said hes not an abiding gun owner.

As soon as the cops see the gun, they have no choice to shoot, who wouldn't?

 

[SHUSA]

Add from that video, how could anyone tell it's the police, they were all screaming together, I couldn't make out what they were screaming.



As soon as the cops see the gun, they have no choice to shoot, who wouldn't?

i agree with both points. hence the problem. if anyone grabs a gun you have to protect yourself. but this innocent man was set up into grabbing his gun.

the trigger finger point im making is reated to those that say "hes sleeping with a gun hes a criminal and is planning for trouble to come" essentially trying to downplay his death by calling him a non law abiding citizen. nobody has yet to actually explain why they view him as such. we all know why though.

if he was actually waiting for danger, hed have the finger on the trigger. this is a case of an innocent man being entrapped into grabbing for his gun.

its crazy that people like cern think that anyone on the planet would wake up in 3am darkness to a bunch of yelling and know it was police.

the end result is an innocent guy got killed doing nothing wrong, and the suspect wasnt even in the house. maybe if it happened in their zip code they could see it differently

 

[SHUSA]

SHUSA, I am trying to not be mean to you. However, either you do not live in reality or you have reading comprehension issues or a combination of both. First, I never said Lock was guilty of anything. I rebutted your argument in which you said no-knocks condemn the innocent. I said how do no-knocks search warrants make him guilty before trial? the answer is that it does not and thus does not condemn a person.

I don't know of any cop who want to try to go and arrest a murderer and knock on the door and say "Police here! We are here to arrest you." If you do not see the danger in this, you clearly have no regards for police. And you have no regard in capturing dangerous criminals.

I'm delusional. Ok, I have been on no-knock raids. I have talked the officers on no-knock raids. The people whose house is being searched absolutely know it is the police within a matter of a couple of seconds. Now, will there be a small percentage of cases in which a person is very confused and does not realize it, that may be true. However, when weighing officer safety with this is infintisimal percentage of people that may just not get it, I am going to weigh on the side of the officers.

Somehow you know what the that his finger not on the trigger means that he was not planning to shoot. This is contradictory to all his other actions by grabbing the gun in the first place. Perhaps when he grabbed the gun in his haste, that is where is finger landed just before switching it to the trigger. But you obviously could read minds through a video tape.

How do you know that this person wasn't trying to grab a gun to shoot the police knowing full well that it was indeed the police? Do you not see that as a possibility? Do you need a criminal conviction in order not to have this desire or outcome? Or would you rather have a police officer shot and perhaps murdered before the police fire at an armed person?

There was a nurse working at Hackensack Hospital who lit a co-worker on fire and then hit her in the head with a wrench. Presumably, he had no record in order to pass a background check. Are you saying that a person without a record can't commit a crime?

He died not for nothing? His actions did not cause his death? He died because he picked up a gun when the police were there. That is why he died. This is not for nothing. If he didn't pick up the gun, he would be alive.

youre the one not living in reality. you think anyone in their right mind could know that was the police barging in at 3am incoherently yelling in the dark to someone who isnt even awake! delusional!!

innocent man dead, who did nothing wrong. police not even at the right place. entrapment. and not even the first time its happened in this specific city.

he died because he picked up his gun when intruders came into his home. intruders, not police to him. they would be intruders to me too. its impossible to know they were police. maybe ill break into your house at 3am when youre sleeping and yell incoherently and see what you do. dont you dare make a move, you should know its just me.

spade is a spade here. this tactic is a complete failure. if this happened in your neighborhood youd be singing a different tune. absolutely.

 

[SHUSA]

the police caused the entire situation. they made this innocent man reach for the gun and some here are saying its the mans fault.

im a big supporter of police but this tactic only breeds disaster. i prioritize innocent people first. i dont support situations where innocent people are essentially bullied into "good shoots". i dont think its good for the officers either.

 

[cernjSHU]

youre the one not living in reality. you think anyone in their right mind could know that was the police barging in at 3am incoherently yelling in the dark to someone who isnt even awake! delusional!!

innocent man dead, who did nothing wrong. police not even at the right place. entrapment. and not even the first time its happened in this specific city.

he died because he picked up his gun when intruders came into his home. intruders, not police to him. they would be intruders to me too. its impossible to know they were police. maybe ill break into your house at 3am when youre sleeping and yell incoherently and see what you do. dont you dare make a move, you should know its just me.

spade is a spade here. this tactic is a complete failure. if this happened in your neighborhood youd be singing a different tune. absolutely.

Please stop using words like entrapment without knowing what the legal meaning. This was not entrapment. Look it up.

The police are trying to capture a murderer, who was Locke’s cousin. The getaway car was tracked back to this apartment complex. One of the murder suspects lives with his mother in that apartment complex along with the suspects brother who lives in the apartment that Locke was in. They were in the right apartment. Suspect wasn’t there.

Lest not forget that a person was murdered and the police are trying to apprehend the murderer. The police are doing their jobs.

Again, it seems like you have never been a victim of a burglary or robbery or worse. Generally, People who break into houses intruders as you call them do not yell and try to make as little as noise as possible.

And I guarantee you if the police raided your house with a no knock you would know. It is absolutely unmistakable. Now, has no one pranked you in your life and woke you up by trying to scare you in the middle of the night? After a second or two didn’t you know it was your friend?

Again thousands upon thousands of no knocks are executed a year in this country. Very few go bad. I saw a stat that up to 50,000 no knocks were done which seems very high over year. Iñ over a 7 year period, 81 people died including 13 police officers. Let’s just say the average is 30,000 have been executed a year, that means .000385% resulted in a death.

If this tactic is so dangerous and it’s a failure that people can’t understand what is happening, don’t you think this percentage would be higher?

 

[Pirata]

to someone in REM sleep.

You peeked inside his brain or something??

 

[SHUSA]

You peeked inside his brain or something??

theyre the ones saying hes awake and alert. that he was completely aware they were the police, and then made a completely aware decision to grab his gun.

but no im the one reaching saying he was sound asleep in the middle of the night. typical from this board going through hoops to justify their biased view on things.

 

[Merge]

You peeked inside his brain or something??

Theoretically he has a point there though. It's not a crazy idea that someone may have no idea what's going on if you startle them out of sleep. I don't think it's supportable either way that he did or did not realize the people coming in were police.

I think two things can be true.
1. No knock warrants have the potential to lead to bad outcomes.
2. There isn't really a better choice in some cases because our priority needs to be on protecting police officers.

 

[SPK145]

i agree with both points. hence the problem. if anyone grabs a gun you have to protect yourself. but this innocent man was set up into grabbing his gun.

I don't fault the deceased or the cops, the problem is the concept of the no-knock raid.

They may be needed but they are ripe for very bad consequences for all involved.

 

[SHUSA]

I don't fault the deceased or the cops, the problem is the concept of the no-knock raid.

They may be needed but they are ripe for very bad consequences for all involved.

it just depends on if youre ok cracking a few eggs as long as theyre in a less desirable area. i mean theyre probably not law abiding citizens anyway.

what are the alternatives? nothing? is nothing better than killing innocent people?

 

[SHUSA]

Theoretically he has a point there though. It's not a crazy idea that someone may have no idea what's going on if you startle them out of sleep. I don't think it's supportable either way that he did or did not realize the people coming in were police.

I think two things can be true.
1. No knock warrants have the potential to lead to bad outcomes.
2. There isn't really a better choice in some cases because our priority needs to be on protecting police officers.

what you mean is 1) no knock have proven to engineer bad outcomes for innocent people.

 

[Merge]

what you mean is 1) no knock have proven to engineer bad outcomes for innocent people.

Yeah you're right, that is a fair criticism. I just don't see a better alternative in some cases.

 

[SHUSA]

Yeah you're right, that is a fair criticism. I just don't see a better alternative in some cases.

can you explain to me those cases?

 

[cernjSHU]

it just depends on if youre ok cracking a few eggs as long as theyre in a less desirable area. i mean theyre probably not law abiding citizens anyway.

what are the alternatives? nothing? is nothing better than killing innocent people?

it just depends on if youre ok cracking a few eggs as long as theyre in a less desirable area. i mean theyre probably not law abiding citizens anyway.

what are the alternatives? nothing? is nothing better than killing innocent people?

So now that I have completely destroyed all of your points, you want to rely on that no-knocks aré a racist practice. You offend every person who dedicated themselves of solving the most atrocious crimes.

I tried to educate you through this but you obviously are too ignorant. Instead of acknowledging the difficulties that occurs during investigating violent crime, you want to rely on a race. You need to go and talk to some family members of people who were murdered. You are clearly a person that never experienced crime and tragedy. Yet you want to pontificate that you know everything about the complicated factors that involve investigating violent crime. Nothing is perfect but people like you are the absolute worst. You don’t have a clue yet you spew off your ignorant rants while your pretend to take the high ground.