Back Nine

[mjs428]

5 of the next 7 are at home with a road game at St John's.

This is the time to make a run.

At 5-4, anything less than 10-8 would be quite disappointing. Remember we already played Nova twice, at X, at Prov, & Creighton twice who people said we match up poorly with.

Seton Hall should make the NCAA tournament.

 

[statenman]

We've been here before.

 

[Hall91]

Our expectation now should be to get 10 Big East wins, maybe a trip to BET semis and that should be a lock for us.

Let's hope Willard believes in himself and the team and that they keep the foot on the gas. I think for better or worse were going to continue to play in a uptempo run and gun offense to keep us from stagnating in the half court. Our defense for the most part has been solid for last 6 weeks. Our biggest dilemma is that we're not a good 3 pt shooting team but with the slashers we have we might be able to mitigate that to some degree.

We should be optimistic right now with the favorable part of the schedule ahead.

 

[sportsfantatic44]

Worried about playing Butler twice. Butler has had our number the last 2 years (1-4 vs them, beat them by 1 in opener in BE tourney the year we beat Nova w/Gibbs buzzer beater). Need to somehow split with them. Think that's a matchup nightmare for us.

Marquette/St. John's at MSG/at DePaul are absolute must wins. Lose to any of them and I think we sweat until selection Sunday.

 

[shu09]

While that's absolutely true about Butler in the past, it isn't the case this year. The games will not be easy by any means, but they don't play the tough, physical brand of defense they've been known for in the past. They are also undersized, which benefits us in the frontcourt.

A split with them would be fine and that's what I expect. Dunham will be a problem for us because of his size and ability to get a shot off quickly but we should be able to beat them at least once. The overall matchup is much better this time around.

 

[ncaaball2]

Butler is reeling, but for you guys to dance you only need to split with them. I posted your projections in another thread that had you finishing 9-9 in conference, and that included two losses to butler. So even if you get swept you are still in play. But a split and you guys are looking good.

 

[Halldan1]

We've been here before.

No we haven't

This group has never been here. Gordon, Ish and Nzei have never been involved in Big East play minus a few meaningless minutes for Ish last year.

The rest of the starters were freshmen with two mostly coming off the bench. One at a position he should not have been playing.

 

[Bud Boomer]

No we haven't

This group has never been here. Gordon, Ish and Nzei have never been involved in Big East play minus a few meaningless minutes for Ish last year.

The rest of the starters were freshmen with two mostly coming off the bench. One at a position he should not have been playing.

This group has most certainly been here before. KC, IW, AD and DR were huge rotation players during last year's collapse. That said, I don't see past why past experience should be a negative. Knowing how quickly things can go south keeps egos in check. Our guys have responded much better to losing this year, and I think last year's experience has a lot to do with that.

 

[Halldan1]

This group has most certainly been here before. KC, IW, AD and DR were huge rotation players during last year's collapse. That said, I don't see past why past experience should be a negative. Knowing how quickly things can go south keeps egos in check. Our guys have responded much better to losing this year, and I think last year's experience has a lot to do with that.

Being here and playing as a group are two different things.

Of the rotation players only Delgado has a full Big East season under his belt as a starter.

Carrington mostly came off the bench last year playing behind Sina, Gibbs and Whitehead.

Whitehead was injured and missed the beginning of the Big East season and often played out of position at the 3 when healthy.

Desi never started and played exclusively at the 4 when he did.

Gordon never played a Big East game.

Nzei never played a Big East game.

For all intents and purposes Ish never played a Big East game.

If you don't think the above is relevant, especially when you consider the seven players above minus Gordon are playing in their first or second year of college then we really disagree.

Experience is crucial and of our rotation players only Gordon has enough to say he's been in this position before and he's a transfer playing with these teammates for the first time. The others are in the process of gaining that experience.

Last week in talking to Carrington in a post game presser he told me 'we' look to Gordon all the time in the locker room because he's been through what we haven't. He then said that next season he expects to lead the team along with Whitehead after Gordon leaves.

 

[Bud Boomer]

Being here and playing as a group are two different things.

Of the rotation players only Delgado has a full Big East season under his belt as a starter.

Carrington mostly came off the bench last year playing behind Sina, Gibbs and Whitehead.

Whitehead was injured and missed the beginning of the Big East season and often played out of position at the 3 when healthy.

Desi never started and played exclusively at the 4 when he did.

Gordon never played a Big East game.

Nzei never played a Big East game.

For all intents and purposes Ish never played a Big East game.

If you don't think the above is relevant, especially when you consider the seven players above minus Gordon are playing in their first or second year of college then we really disagree.

Experience is crucial and of our rotation players only Gordon has enough to say he's been in this position before. The others are in the process of gaining that experience.

Last week in talking to Carrington in a post game presser he told me 'we' look to Gordon all the time in the locker room because he's been through what we haven't. He then said that next season he expects to lead the team along with Whitehead after Gordon leaves.

No, I don't think any of that has much relevance to the question of whether this team is going to be mentally tough enough to withstand the rigors of losing, and the pressure of making an NCAA tournament for the first time (which I think was the point of the post you responded to). Parsing the minutes/games/positions played by each guy you identify misses the broader point that our big four were all a major part of the team last year, and all played a part in the collapse. It happened. Like I said, though, I don't view that as a bad thing. Judging by the way these guys have responded after losses this year, they seem to have learned from it.

 

[Halldan1]

Here's the above comment I responded to.

We've been here before.

My response to that had nothing to do with being mentally tough.

Again I say no we have not been here before. Not this group for all the reasons I noted above.

This is their first experience playing meaningful Feb games.

 

[Section112]

I've been seeing steady improvement which I have always said has been our problem in the last 6 years. We need to keep that steady improvement moving forward knowing that now the games mean so much more to us and the other teams.

I saw a team that was well prepared Sat night and that was playing hard and doing the little things that win games (rebounding, sharing the ball etc) which was great. We need to improve our FT shooting because we drive the ball so well.

I also noticed a little something different about Isaiah when he shoots the ball. He seemed relaxed vs. being amped up. I really hope that continues. Sometimes a player starts to mature and the good ones say the game slows down a little bit for them. I'm really hoping that is what is happening to him. I'm afraid to say much more but love how hard these kids are working. Guys like Ish and Desi and Khadeen are making a huge difference. And if we can get the bench contribution from kids like Mike and Veer and Derrick and even Anthony we can continue to improve. I don't think we are close to peeking yet. I said too much....

 

[ncaaball2]

maybe these kids will be stronger and more focused because of what they went through their freshman season?

 

[Halldan1]

maybe these kids will be stronger and more focused because of what they went through their freshman season?

Agreed. For the ones that were here. That's the experience I was talking about. But it's not a lot and it doesn't including winning or playing important February games. Thus I stand by the comment that this particular group has not been 'here' before.

That said, they are learning on the fly and doing a helluva job so far.

 

[Hall91]

To me, I think we got the signal this team turned the corner from the issues of years' past the way we responded coming off the Creighton loss. Team could have got downhill, but instead they did pull together and moved on. It appears on the surface (fingers crossed) that Desi has got his head on his shoulders here and that sans the occasional IW bad shot selection (which will go with the territory of him being THE guy) we're looking solid as a team.

 

[The SHUttle]

I think the more appropriate way of taking the phrase garnering so much attention is more of a fans have been here before or a Willard team has been here before...and fell flat. That is very true. I did not take it as a "this exact group of players" has been here before.

 

[halltheway]

To me, I think it's a completely different team without Gibbs and Sina...throw in Mobley as a senior.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

No we haven't

This group has never been here. Gordon, Ish and Nzei have never been involved in Big East play minus a few meaningless minutes for Ish last year.

The rest of the starters were freshmen with two mostly coming off the bench. One at a position he should not have been playing.

To a degree you are correct. However, the Cubs are the Cubs regardless of the players. The Red Sox were the Red Sox for a long time. Until a team or a program actually breaks through it's never different for the fan base. The only thing that's different is how they find a way to screw it up. Let's hope this group and change the culture here and make the NCAA tournament a given from this point on.

 

[shu09]

Agreed. For the ones that were here. That's the experience I was talking about. But it's not a lot and it doesn't including winning or playing important February games. Thus I stand by the comment that this particular group has not been 'here' before.

That said, they are learning on the fly and doing a helluva job so far.

This group absolutely did play meaningful February games last season. Heading into February, Seton Hall has the same exact record as it did last season (both overall and in the Big East). Unfortunately, they lost nearly all of the meaningful games until they were effectively eliminated from tournament contention.

This year seems different, but the next three games will tell the story. I'm confident.

 

[bigraym]

I agree with Dan, this is a virtually new and young team, in a new situation, as well as a new team dynamic. Add to that a leader, I love Derrick Gordon and his defense and leadership skills. Our team the last few years, though targeting good defensive play, failed to stop anyone, especially down the stretch. This year's team plays intense disciplined defense and have a number of players who can finish, and are not afraid of taking a big shot!
Obviously, we have to still prove this down the stretch, but I like our chances. I, for one, am a quite excited Seton Hall Pirate fan!

 

[Halldan1]

This group absolutely did play meaningful February games last season. Heading into February, Seton Hall has the same exact record as it did last season (both overall and in the Big East). Unfortunately, they lost nearly all of the meaningful games until they were effectively eliminated from tournament contention.

This year seems different, but the next three games will tell the story. I'm confident.

1. Last season Sterling Gibbs was the star. He played nearly 34 MPG. he's not on this team.

2. Mobley was the starting PF. When the game was on the line he was on the court playing a very important part.

3. Because of Mobley Ish did not play last season and Desi, who played out of position never sniffed the SF spot and did not have anywhere near the role on the team he has now.

4. Nzei, who was injured and did not play last season is now the first big off the bench averaging 15 MPG.

6. Gordon wasn't on the team last year.

7. Sina started 23 games last year and played in the teams first 12 Big East contests averaging over 32 MPG before quitting.

8. His minutes were then taken by Carrington but by that time SHU had lost 3 Big East games (in Feb) in a row and the season was lost for all intents and purposes.

With all of the above how can anyone say this year's team played meaningful minutes last season in February? Sure for a very short time SOME of the players were on the court in early February, but the season was trending downward and anyone who was watching a couple of games into the the month knew it was over.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

I'm no fan of most of 09's posts, sorry 09 not that you care, but Dan were you that 1 guy standing up saying this Red Sox team isn't cursed in 2003,1999, 1986, or 1975? Programs carry their history. God forbid we lose tomorrow, these guys will face questions about the past. The players on Duke's team last year never won a national championship going into March Madness, yet they still carried the aura of the programs past. I don't remember anyone talking like Duke had never been to a Final Four last year, even though those players never were. Unfortunately just like anyone who signed as a free agent with the Red Sox before 2004, you know the past. When theses sophomores signed their letter of intent they knew we had a 9 year streak without dancing. Until they break the streak or unless the fan base just completely forgets the previous 10 years, it's something that will follow them. I think they will do it, but until they do it, I completely understand we've been here before.

 

[Piratefan2009]

I'm no fan of most of 09's posts, sorry 09 not that you care, but Dan were you that 1 guy standing up saying this Red Sox team isn't cursed in 2003,1999, 1986, or 1975? Programs carry their history. God forbid we lose tomorrow, these guys will face questions about the past. The players on Duke's team last year never won a national championship going into March Madness, yet they still carried the aura of the programs past. I don't remember anyone talking like Duke had never been to a Final Four last year, even though those players never were. Unfortunately just like anyone who signed as a free agent with the Red Sox before 2004, you know the past. When theses sophomores signed their letter of intent they knew we had a 9 year streak without dancing. Until they break the streak or unless the fan base just completely forgets the previous 10 years, it's something that will follow them. I think they will do it, but until they do it, I completely understand we've been here before.

This pretty much says it all. Never mind the fact that one of the most important pieces of the team has been here 5 times already. The Coach.

Here's what everyone wants and what will not cause a meltdown:

- Go out for the next three games and play their friggin hearts out

No first ten minute sleepy time with 50% effort. No looking like this is the first time they've sat in a half-court offense. No swiss cheese defense using hands instead of feet and then crying to the refs about fouls. Do that and they should win 2 out of the next three at least. I would be happy with that and I think everyone else would too. "eff" the expectations and the inexperience.

Even more so, we haven't "turned the corner" until the above happens.

I will be there on Wednesday cheering like a banshee.

 

[williaza01]

I'm no fan of most of 09's posts, sorry 09 not that you care, but Dan were you that 1 guy standing up saying this Red Sox team isn't cursed in 2003,1999, 1986, or 1975? Programs carry their history. God forbid we lose tomorrow, these guys will face questions about the past. The players on Duke's team last year never won a national championship going into March Madness, yet they still carried the aura of the programs past. I don't remember anyone talking like Duke had never been to a Final Four last year, even though those players never were. Unfortunately just like anyone who signed as a free agent with the Red Sox before 2004, you know the past. When theses sophomores signed their letter of intent they knew we had a 9 year streak without dancing. Until they break the streak or unless the fan base just completely forgets the previous 10 years, it's something that will follow them. I think they will do it, but until they do it, I completely understand we've been here before.

This literally means nothing. The Red Sox couldnt win until they did. Phil Mickelson couldnt win a major until he did. No one took the Panthers seriously until basically last week. They have lost 1 game all year. If they win this weekend they will go down as one of the best NFL teams of all time. If they loose it will be, "The Panthers cant win the big one". The Buccaneers and Saints were both among the worst franchises in sports history, both have won super bowls in recent memory. What you are talking about is standard sports talk radio fanfare speak. It means nothing in competition or sports. Everything is unique to the situation at hand. That is logic 101.

Once again it doesnt mean they cant/wont crash and burn. However, little can be blamed on history.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Williaza which post on here isn't sports radio talk? Which post on here has had any impact once the ball gets tipped? Maybe you prefer all message boards and sports radio be canceled. Until that happens fans will recall the trends until they are broken.

 

[garyshu71]

On most golf courses the back nine is quite a bit harder. But a good player should have found his swing and putting feel by then to play better and improve his score. Let's hope Seton Hall improves the same way. Improving as the season moves along would be another sign the program is turning the corner.

 

[Section112]

On most golf courses the back nine is quite a bit harder. But a good player should have found his swing and putting feel by then to play better and improve his score. Let's hope Seton Hall improves the same way. Improving as the season moves along would be another sign the program is turning the corner.

I agree with this. Most teams now have little nagging injuries, games mean more at this stage and the intensity gets turned up another notch. With that said good teams have found their identity (which I think we have in playing tough D, rebounding and getting second chances) and are building confidence. We are certainly building confidence. This team also knows its roles which is critical. Some guys are doing the dirtywork (Ish, Nzei, Desi, Angel, Derrick). Some guys are the scorers (IW, Khadeem, Angel and Desi). All are playing really tough defense every possession which is what good teams do. And we have seen where we have made TO's on the offensive end only to get back and play good D or get the block from behind which tells me they have short memories and are dedicated to Defense.

February is gonna be hard. But if this team keeps doing what they are doing and continues to play hard and just a little smarter we will continue to improve. I actually saw SHU boxing out during the Creighton game! What a concept!

One thing they have to work on which I fear the most is FTs. Gotta improve our % or it will come back to bite us in one of these tight games. But I like our trajectory and that is what I've been looking for as a fan for soooooo long.

 

[shupat08]

KW, FHJ, Sha, IW, KC, Desi, Angel, Ish (rarely used), Mike (sit out year) were all here last year as well.

KW, FHJ, Sha as the coaches... IW, Angel as starters... KC & Desi as the first 2 off the bench.

We have 7 integral pieces still left from last years meltdown and 2 more who were witnesses.

 

[shupat08]

This literally means nothing. The Red Sox couldnt win until they did. Phil Mickelson couldnt win a major until he did. No one took the Panthers seriously until basically last week. They have lost 1 game all year. If they win this weekend they will go down as one of the best NFL teams of all time. If they loose it will be, "The Panthers cant win the big one". The Buccaneers and Saints were both among the worst franchises in sports history, both have won super bowls in recent memory. What you are talking about is standard sports talk radio fanfare speak. It means nothing in competition or sports. Everything is unique to the situation at hand. That is logic 101.

Once again it doesnt mean they cant/wont crash and burn. However, little can be blamed on history.

We can't win, until we do... No one takes us seriously, then they do, then we collapse.

So..........

 

[shu09]

When you're 15-6 (5-4), 15-7 (5-5) and 15-8 (5-6), you're playing meaningful games because you're still in tournament contention. Once they lost those first three games in February, it was over. But those first three games were very meaningful.

Minutes played against DePaul. Seton Hall was 15-6 (5-4) heading into that game: Delgado (35), Whitehead (24), Carrington (23), Rodriguez (16).

Minutes played against Marquette. Seton Hall was 15-7 (5-5) heading into that game: Carrington (34), Delgado (31), Whitehead (21), Rodriguez (17).

Minutes played against Georgetown. Seton Hall was 15-8 (5-6) heading into that game: Delgado (30), Whitehead (29), Carrington (22), Rodriguez (17).

Is this year's team different? Absolutely. Different makeup, different mindset, different style of play. But to say the major contributors on this year's team did not play meaningful games/minutes in February last year is not accurate in any way.

It seems like they have learned the lessons of last year. So has the coach. I think it will continue.

 

[shu09]

I'm no fan of most of 09's posts, sorry 09 not that you care

Hey, I've been agreeing with a lot of what you've been posting lately. LOL.

 

[SPK145]

It's still a different TEAM, but it's all about putting up or shutting up. So far not bad, still much work to do, Seton Hall could win or lose to any teams not named Villanova, Xavier, St. John's, and hopefully DePaul.

 

[TheBluePirate]

I've been seeing steady improvement which I have always said has been our problem in the last 6 years. We need to keep that steady improvement moving forward knowing that now the games mean so much more to us and the other teams.

I saw a team that was well prepared Sat night and that was playing hard and doing the little things that win games (rebounding, sharing the ball etc) which was great. We need to improve our FT shooting because we drive the ball so well.

I also noticed a little something different about Isaiah when he shoots the ball. He seemed relaxed vs. being amped up. I really hope that continues. Sometimes a player starts to mature and the good ones say the game slows down a little bit for them. I'm really hoping that is what is happening to him. I'm afraid to say much more but love how hard these kids are working. Guys like Ish and Desi and Khadeen are making a huge difference. And if we can get the bench contribution from kids like Mike and Veer and Derrick and even Anthony we can continue to improve. I don't think we are close to peeking yet. I said too much....

I'm really with 112 here. The incremental improvement mantra is something that was crucial for me all along. The 5 years of implosion pretty much has left me as a significant doubter. That said, this year continues to feel different. We had a fatal swoon - but it was nipped in the bud somehow. Well - I'm good with that, come what may. I'm seeing more fundamentals and team member awareness on the floor and it's building.

We're mad-sick-desperate for success, but it's a good thing to see progress no matter the final record.

 

[Halldan1]

I'm no fan of most of 09's posts, sorry 09 not that you care, but Dan were you that 1 guy standing up saying this Red Sox team isn't cursed in 2003,1999, 1986, or 1975? Programs carry their history. God forbid we lose tomorrow, these guys will face questions about the past. The players on Duke's team last year never won a national championship going into March Madness, yet they still carried the aura of the programs past. I don't remember anyone talking like Duke had never been to a Final Four last year, even though those players never were. Unfortunately just like anyone who signed as a free agent with the Red Sox before 2004, you know the past. When theses sophomores signed their letter of intent they knew we had a 9 year streak without dancing. Until they break the streak or unless the fan base just completely forgets the previous 10 years, it's something that will follow them. I think they will do it, but until they do it, I completely understand we've been here before.

No offense but what on earth does this have to do with this current Pirate team?

They are creating their own legacy. Do you think Whitehead cares about what Theodore, Nu Nu or any PG before him has done. Do you really believe that when Delgado suits up he is thinking about past Pirate teams. Same question with the rest of the players.

These kids are high quality BB players. History to us is not the same as history to them. They haven't experienced the past failures like we have so as far as I am concerned what's relevant to us is not to them.

Too much over thinking. This team has its own identity. They will sink or swim on their own merits.

 

[shupat08]

Didn't Whitehead say he wanted to bring SHU back to prominence?

These players know that we haven't been to the tournament since they can remember.

And they know it's on them to change SHU's fate.

 

[Halldan1]

Didn't Whitehead say he wanted to bring SHU back to prominence?

These players know that we haven't been to the tournament since they can remember.

And they know it's on them to change SHU's fate.

Never said they were blind to the situation. Just said that our perspective which is littered with losses for more years than most want to remember is not something they experienced short of last season. A season BTW with different teammates and locker room issues.

I really doubt this team is going out each game worrying about what has happened in the past. I know I wouldn't. Why on earth care about a situation you had no control over?

Again, too much overthinking.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Dan the point is as in every situation in the history of sports, a team has to deal with the past they had nothing to do with positive or negative. A slip up here, a slip up there, and you know the kids are going to get questions about another February slip up. All of a sudden a team has additional pressures and distractions. So until we hit that 21 win mark, I think the past is very relevant. Do you honestly think if we go into Depaul needing one more win, 2012 won't be brought up 100 times? Fair or not it's a cloud hanging over us. It's crazy to believe it doesn't exist.

 

[Halldan1]

Actually I could care less what has happened in the past with other teams. That has zero bearing on this squad.

AND

When you think about it this team revels in revenge. I have seen it and heard it first hand.

In the pressers this year there has been talk about three big time revenge games.

Wichita State, Georgia and Creighton. In all cases the players backed up their words.

I have a lot of faith in these guys and I think more of us should understand this team is creating their own history. For better or worse.

I'll go with better.

 

[Seton75]

To me, I think it's a completely different team without Gibbs and Sina...throw in Mobley as a senior.

We are now a team that hangs it hat on rebounding and defense. I assume the change in cast is a large part of the reason, but this new definition of our team makes it completely different than last year. And other than Angel, we have no holdovers at any position.

I am nervous about every game. A win Wednesday night would be wonderful!

 

[lr591902]

Actually I could care less what has happened in the past with other teams. That has zero bearing on this squad.

AND

When you think about it this team revels in revenge. I have seen it and heard it first hand.

In the pressers this year there has been talk about three big time revenge games.

Wichita State, Georgia and Creighton. In all cases the players backed up their words.

I have a lot of faith in these guys and I think more of us should understand this team is creating their own history. For better or worse.

I'll go with better.

Dan you are fighting a useless battle. Those that want to tar this team with the sins of the past will not change their minds until the team has either won enough games to qualify for the tournament or not. You are right that this team does not care about the past. You are right that they bring a different passion and a different skill level to the game than previous teams. That is not the point to many fans. I understand their hesitancy to embrace the team at this point. Last year we were 5-4 with victories over St. John's and Villanova. We had just received a great performance from Whitehead against Xavier and many of us were thinking about what bracket we would be in. The rug was then pulled out from under us by the selfish attitudes of a majority of the players and the team collapsed. While this team is clearly different and seems to have the right attitude it is understandable that some want to wait a little longer before believing we have turned the corner.

I have not missed a game this year and intend to be at every remaining home game rooting the team on to victory as they are fun to watch. I also hope that they keep winning so that they go to the tournament and we can all focus on the team instead of the coach. Thank you for all that you do.