And that is just as wrong as if we had a Jewish President and there was a group of Rabbis threatening to take away something spiritual from the Jewish President because they are not forcing their beliefs on the entire country.
Bishops denying communion to catholic pols
- Thread starter ed odowd
- Start date
And that is just as wrong as if we had a Jewish President and there was a group of Rabbis threatening to take away something spiritual from the Jewish President because they are not forcing their beliefs on the entire country.
That makes no sense. Why would the church, who is against ALL abortions, be OK with a catholic politician who is FOR abortion but may be for policies that may result in less abortions than current? And is Biden really for that?
It's not about forcing beliefs onto other people. It's about standing up for what you believe in. If abortion is wanted by the majority of the country so be it. But I can stand up and say I think this is wrong, but implement the policy the country desires. That's part of being a leader.
Biden is so reckless and extreme on abortion policy that he has managed to even scandalise readers of Newsweek with his permissiveness on abortion laws, creating common ground between pro life and women's health lobbies:
https://www.newsweek.com/biden-admi...ry-profits-over-womens-safety-opinion-1583995
Biden Administration Puts Abortion Industry Profits Over Women's Safety | Opinion
Far from governing as a unifying president, Joe Biden has pushed a radical abortion agenda that places profits for the abortion industry above the health and safety of women. The Biden administration's abortion extremism was on full display when, as we predicted this week in an online event, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) decided to stop enforcing critical in-person health and safety requirements for the chemical abortion drug mifepristone.
This decision puts politics over science, risks women's lives and future fertility and creates a deadly new market for do-it-yourself abortions online and by mail. This is a disaster in the making for millions of women across America who can now be sold life-ending drugs and abandoned to whatever happens next.
The Biden administration's chemical abortion gambit also reveals a deep hypocrisy. Consider that on the same day news was breaking about the gutted health and safety standards for chemical abortion, the FDA also announced it was pulling the Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine because, out of 7 million people who had taken it, six had suffered blood clots and one person died. Yet despite the fact that chemical abortion pills have been a factor in the deaths of more than 20 women and millions of unborn children, Biden's FDA not only kept the drugs on the market, but authorized, in effect, a nationwide experiment in do-it-yourself abortions. There was no semblance of an "abundance of caution" in the FDA's abortion pill announcement.
Far from being a safe and easy way to end a precious preborn life, chemical abortion pills lead to complications four times as frequently as surgical abortion. Pregnant mothers need to be screened in person for ectopic pregnancy and the age of their baby, as well as for blood type, because women's fertility can be lost if they are Rh-negative and go untreated after an abortion. They must also be examined after taking the chemicals because of the risk of infection from an incomplete abortion. And they need to be protected from abusers who have given such drugs to women without their knowledge and consent.
False arguments about "access" ignore the need to be certain that when deadly chemicals are sold, people won't be harmed. We don't allow people to self-diagnose cancer, order chemotherapy through the mail and then start self-treating. The life-and-death stakes make examination and careful care and follow up essential.
Even if you support abortion, risking women's lives, health and future fertility to make it easier to sell such drugs through the mail doesn't help women. It profits the abortion industry, which is now able to save on personnel, testing and brick-and-mortar costs.
For years, pro-life members of Congress have been fighting in court against the abortion industry's reckless campaign to keep the abortion pill from being held to basic medical standards. They are also advocating for legislation, like the Support and Value Expectant (SAVE) Moms and Babies Act, to codify these standards. Students for Life and SFLAction have been fighting the distribution of the pills on college campuses as well as in more than ten states and counting.
Numerous states, including most recently Montana, are also fighting back to protect women from dangerous do-it-yourself abortions. Many more states should follow suit.
We cannot allow the COVID-19 crisis to be exploited to create an entirely new, and completely preventable, health crisis through mail-order, do-it-yourself abortions. President Biden must abandon this radical abortion agenda and call on his administration to enforce health and safety standards for chemical abortion pills, to prevent some women from paying the price of death, injury or infertility for a quick sale of chemical abortion pills. If he does not, the legacy of the Biden administration will be the loss of life.fe
Making abortion illegal will do nothing to change why people have abortions. Is pragmatism too much to expect?
Yes, he is for policies which will reduce the reasons why people want abortions. Not a coincidence that the decline in abortion rates was the largest decline per year under Obama than any previous president. Expanding access to healthcare, helping pay for daycare & Pre-k, increasing the child tax credit etc...
You can disagree with those policies because you don't believe it is the governments responsibility, but if you are a Catholic and you want to reduce abortions as your number one issue, you should support those and other liberal social assistance programs.
With a fast and hard rule of being staunchly anti-abortion, why would/should the catholic church be pragmatic? I'm staunchly anti-rape, I'm not pragmatic about reducing the number of them, I want all of them to be illegal.
The Church has many rules which they are pragmatic about.
They are not seeking a legal requirement to keep the sabbath holy, or to make it illegal to cheat on your spouse. Though shall not steal, yet they differentiate a tiny theft vs a large one. They take no issue with politicians bearing false witness etc..
A law to make infidelity illegal would not change why people cheat as much as a law to ban abortions would change why people want one.
I don't want to turn this into an abortion thread, but I'll add that (while I abhor abortion and think it is 100% wrong) I tend to agree with Merge here. I don't think that making it fully illegal is the answer. Legally banning anything, be that abortion, drugs, guns, alcohol, whatever NEVER succeeds in getting rid of said thing. All it does is create a black market for it. In the case of abortions, people who want them are going to find a way to get them and will do so in ways dangerous to both mother and child. I think efforts really need to be focused on A: limiting unwanted preganancies (I know the Church also opposes birth control but I see a lesser of two evils and a need to pick your battles) and B: making abortion the absolute last option for people considering it: give these expentent mothers the help they need to make the right choice. The change we need is for nobody to even want abortions, not just to be denied them.
Oh and back on the Eucharist topic, I'll just add that I'm sure there are thousands of Catholics who receive the Eucharist unworthily every week because it just becomes habit to the point that they don't actually stop to consider their state of sin before presenting themselves. I still think it's an overstep for the Bishops to deny anyone, but if this conversation gets anyone back into the habit of discerning their own worthiness week to week, I think that's a positive.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Very poorly informed comment. You will find little overlap between the two groups you cited. In fact, defense of the Eucharist on the one hand and laxity concerning abuse scandals on the other is almost perfectly negatively correlated.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Yeah, these bishops had absolutely no clue, I'm sure. It was the entire catholic church institution and it was swept under the rug. Abortion is sickening and so was the mass abuse of kids at the hands of these perverts.
No one is denying that. The problem with our society is because someone(s) made a mistake the entire group is basically chastized forever. So the church made a mistake, they're all bad. White people made a mistake with slavery, they're all bad too. Men made it tough for women in the workplace, they're all bad as well. One day we'll figure out some Africans sold slaves, they'll all be bad. Some women purposely used sex to get up the corporate ladder, they'll all be bad too. At some point the cycle needs to stop of destroying a group for the acts of individuals.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
This is true, but you're also using examples, like slavery, which are 200 years old. Its ridiculous to blame anyone alive today for slavery. The extent of the abuse in the church was global, and have all parties involved been removed? It was systematic abuse, their stance on Biden is really irrelevant when their institution allowed such horrific abuse to take place.
I'm 100% positive if I think back on some of the crap that I did, most people would consider my stances to be irrelevant. Unless we have modern day saints on here, I'm sure I'm not the only one. So who decides whose stance is relevant and irrelevant.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
You're gonna equate doing dumb stuff as a kid to covering up child abuse? Ok then lol. That's what the church did, on a mass scale. There are many good individuals in the Church, but the institution as a whole has a sketchy track record, and their leadership was/is an abomination.
So does the entire US Government as a whole have a sketchy track record with leadership was/is an abomination. LMAO
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Your cavalier attitude about a disgusting abuse of power against vulnerable children by adults in the Catholic Church is really eye opening.
But but Biden bad, must stop from receiving eucharist.
Again, you are demonstrating a complete ignorance of the way the Church works.
The manner of how the institutional governance works is that individual bishops have an extraordinary degree of authority within their own dioceses on enforcement etc. While the Church SHOULD have unity on issues of doctrine and dogma through the Chair of Saint Peter, sadly the enforcement of these principles varies greatly across individual bishops.
To make a reference to the "entire institution of the Catholic Church" is therefore utterly nonsensical.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Haha are you trying to argue the entire Church wasnt rotting with this scandal? I don't care who runs each individual diocease, the scandal was wide spread, that's an institutional problem.
No my cavalier attitude is the people who are making these decisions are innocent until proven guilty. Do you know for a fact these bishops covered up or abused children? They are not guilty by association which is probably the same principle you were fighting for on different topics.
Was there an abuse problem in the Cathlic Church? Absolutely. And while it certainly took too long, at least there is an effort being made to fix those problems. That's more than can be said for many other religions (Christian or otherwise), government offices, public schools and private corporations that are still in deny and cover up mode. That's not to excuse anything the church let happen and it should be held to a higher standard, but if we're going to disregard the stance of an organization based on something like this, let's at least apply the same criteria across the board.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
I went to Catholic school. I am not a practicing Catholic.
Were obviously not going to agree on the meaning of institutional.
It’s not a matter of opinion or “agreement.” It’s the facts of the legal and authority structure of the Church.
It’s not terribly surprising that one who is not a practicing Catholic would be ignorant of how the institutional church operates.
If you said this about a similar religious “belief”....well, you can’t unless you want to be cancelled.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
You're hiding behind the "institutional structure" to deny abuse of kids took place in various dioceases across the US and around world. This was not limited to NY or NJ, it was EVERYWHERE. It was the whole power structure that failed those kids and enabled pedophiles to operate with impunity, truly sickening.
ill say it about all of them. idk. never really bought in as a child because i guess common sense prevailed. story from a book.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
I think religion is a great thing. It brings communities together, helps people thru thr worst times in their lives and gives us hope/faith that we will see our loved ones again someday.
The bad parts of religion are when abuses happen, which is not just limited to the Catholic church and the radicalization of people.
I dont believe that you need to be part of an institutional religion to get to heaven. I believe if you live a good life you'll be rewarded. Honor your commitments (marriage), treat people well, and work hard for your family with the belief there is a greater power.
The polarization that you see in American society also exists in the Catholic Church. The Church is in the midst of a veritable civil war. It's cardinal against cardinal, bishop against bishop, exactly as one of the approved 20th century apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary prophesized. To claim that there is such a thing as a single "institutional church" is extraordinarily ignorant.
To put that ignorance into context, how would you react to a foreigner who said "Americans are all about guns and weed." Such a statement makes no sense because it is ignorant of the federal legal and authority structure of the United States.
Affinity for guns and weed are in fact negatively correlated if you are properly informed on American politics. Texas may have an affinity for guns but it hates weed; California may have an affinity for weed but it hates guns.
The same is true within the Catholic Church concerning protection of sexual abuse perpetrators and protection of the Holy Eucharist.
Look no further than Seton Hall's own Theodore McCarrick. He is the face of the institutional abuse crisis. As Archbishop of Washington, he blatantly ignored instructions from both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict that he was to deny Holy Communion to DC politicians who publicly supported abortion.
Cardinal McCarrick Continues to Conceal Rome’s Insistence that Pro-Abort Politicians Be Denied Commu - LifeSite
Failure to mention central contents of crucial Ratzinger letter seemingly habitual for McCarrick
www.lifesitenews.com
Cardinal McCarrick and the Concealing of Rome’s Position on Denying Communion - LifeSite
Part II
www.lifesitenews.com
I have no right to call out properly installed bishops, but if you look closely at which bishops are defending Biden and which bishops are obfuscating abuse scandals, you will learn that they are one and the same.
Great, then I presume you faithfully hold true all that the Church has always taught and is contained in its magisterium.
