Confederate Flag no more

[Halldan1]

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/i...ves-signs-bill-officially-changing-state-flag

Mississippi Gov. Tate Reeves signs bill officially changing state flag

8:00 PM ET

• ESPN News Services

Mississippi Gov. Tate Reeves on Tuesday signed a bill to retire the last state flag in the U.S. with the Confederate battle emblem following widespread, increased pressure that came in part from the sports world.

"This is not a political moment to me but a solemn occasion to lead our Mississippi family to come together, to be reconciled, and to move on," Reeves said in a statement. "We are a resilient people defined by our hospitality. We are a people of great faith. Now, more than ever, we must lean on that faith, put our divisions behind us, and unite for a greater good.''

Mississippi has faced increasing pressure to change its flag since protests against racial injustice have focused attention on Confederate symbols.

Earlier this month, NASCAR banned the Confederate flag at its races two days after Bubba Wallace, the lone Black driver in NASCAR's three national series, called for the organization to remove it.

SEC commissioner Greg Sankey threatened on June 18 to not host any future conference championship events in Mississippi until the state changed its flag. The SEC last ran a championship event in Mississippi in May 2016.

A day after the SEC's warning, the NCAA expanded its Confederate flag policy to prohibit all of its championship events from being held in states where the flag is flown.

A broad coalition of legislators on Sunday passed the landmark legislation to change the 126-year-old Mississippi state flag, capping a weekend of emotional debate and decades of effort by Black lawmakers and others who see the rebel emblem as a symbol of hatred.

The Confederate battle emblem has a red field topped by a blue X with 13 white stars. White supremacist legislators put it on the upper-left corner of the Mississippi flag in 1894, as white people were squelching political power that African Americans had gained after the Civil War.

Critics have said for generations that it's wrong for a state in which 38% of the people are Black to have a flag marked by the Confederacy, particularly since the Ku Klux Klan and other hate groups have used the symbol to promote racist agendas.

Mississippi voters chose to keep the flag in a 2001 statewide election, with supporters saying they saw it as a symbol of Southern heritage. But since then, a growing number of cities and all the state's public universities have abandoned it.

A groundswell of young activists, college athletes and leaders from business, religion, education and sports called on Mississippi to change its flag, finally providing the momentum for legislators to vote.

A commission will now design a new flag, one that cannot include the Confederate symbol and must have the words "In God We Trust.'' Voters will be asked to approve the new design in the Nov. 3 election. If they reject it, the commission will draft a different design using the same guidelines, to be sent to voters later.

Said Reeves in signing over the flag's demise, "We are all Mississippians and we must all come together. What better way to do that than include "In God We Trust'' on our new state banner."

He added: "The people of Mississippi, black and white, and young and old, can be proud of a banner that puts our faith front and center. We can unite under it. We can move forward together."

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

They’ve given the confederate flag a meaning it never had and made it into something it never was. They are trying to change history which will not end well. We all know that slavery is wrong but that will never change the fact that it was legal and that the majority of the people, especially in the south, owned slaves. We also know that some slave owners were horrible and abusive but not all were. If we keep trying to suppress or erase our history we are destined to repeat it.

 

[Piratz]

Is the Confederacy the most romanticized violent insurgency in world history?

 

[HallLine69]

They’ve given the confederate flag a meaning it never had and made it into something it never was. They are trying to change history which will not end well. We all know that slavery is wrong but that will never change the fact that it was legal and that the majority of the people, especially in the south, owned slaves. We also know that some slave owners were horrible and abusive but not all were. If we keep trying to suppress or erase our history we are destined to repeat it.

Yes, let's all hear it for those slave owners who were not horrible and abusive and who simply bought and sold other human beings.

 

[ceballoj]

They’ve given the confederate flag a meaning it never had and made it into something it never was. They are trying to change history which will not end well. We all know that slavery is wrong but that will never change the fact that it was legal and that the majority of the people, especially in the south, owned slaves. We also know that some slave owners were horrible and abusive but not all were. If we keep trying to suppress or erase our history we are destined to repeat it.

I am assuming you are not African American?

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

Yes, let's all hear it for those slave owners who were not horrible and abusive and who simply bought and sold other human beings.

What don’t you get about it being a legal and accepted practice back then? Times have I obviously changed and we know it is wrong and therefore illegal and no longer acceptable. That doesn’t mean that every slave owner was a piece of crap who abused their slaves. You also cannot ignore all of the good some of these people did for our country outside of their slave ownership, which again was perfectly legal at the time!

 

[JRSlim2284]

What don’t you get about it being a legal and accepted practice back then? Times have I obviously changed and we know it is wrong and therefore illegal and no longer acceptable. That doesn’t mean that every slave owner was a piece of crap who abused their slaves. You also cannot ignore all of the good some of these people did for our country outside of their slave ownership, which again was perfectly legal at the time!

 

[NittanyPirate]

This should have been done a long time ago.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

I am assuming you are not African American?

You can assume whatever you like, doesn’t mean you are right or wrong. I would ask if you’ve ever spoken to anyone from the south, black or white, whose families have been there since the Civil War and see what they have to say. I think you’d be surprised. The flag is a source of southern pride for a lot of people. Others have decided to change what it means and make it negative. I’d also suggest you look around and see what some do to the American flag because the same thing could happen.

Also, when Mississippi voted on their flag the last time do you honestly think that no black people voted to keep it?

 

[ceballoj]

You can assume whatever you like, doesn’t mean you are right or wrong. I would ask if you’ve ever spoken to anyone from the south, black or white, whose families have been there since the Civil War and see what they have to say. I think you’d be surprised. The flag is a source of southern pride for a lot of people. Others have decided to change what it means and make it negative. I’d also suggest you look around and see what some do to the American flag because the same thing could happen.

Also, when Mississippi voted on their flag the last time do you honestly think that no black people voted to keep it?

Wow. Ok. I actually do have several black friends (one from deep south) who are very hspoy about this. They have said that they definitely feel uncomfortable and sometimes scared when they see that flag.

 

[SHUHitman]

The problem with cancel culture is that there is no satisfaction. While this was a good and appropriate decision, no one will be satisfied with this. It should have been done years ago before it served to be more fuel to the current fire. Our country and its history are under attack. And while this is an easy case to side with what I feel is the appropriate side, many of the demands and actions going on are not, IMO.

The American Flag will come under fire next, mark my words on that one.

 

[ceballoj]

I wonder how SHU student athletes like MP, Quincy and Cale feel about the confederate flag?

 

[cernjSHU]

You can assume whatever you like, doesn’t mean you are right or wrong. I would ask if you’ve ever spoken to anyone from the south, black or white, whose families have been there since the Civil War and see what they have to say. I think you’d be surprised. The flag is a source of southern pride for a lot of people. Others have decided to change what it means and make it negative. I’d also suggest you look around and see what some do to the American flag because the same thing could happen.

Also, when Mississippi voted on their flag the last time do you honestly think that no black people voted to keep it?

The confederate flag is a traitorous flag. when I was growing up it was referred to as a rebel flag. Don’t know how northerners from Ny and NJ can ever talk that it’s southern pride. thsts BS. Some of that has evolved into it. But that will always be about the rebellion. Just like the swastika will always represent fascism, Hitler and genocide.

I always remembered when I was a kid, my father saying that when he went down South, a lot of people think that they won the war.

 

[thehall07]

The confederate flag is a traitorous flag. when I was growing up it was referred to as a rebel flag. Don’t know how northerners from Ny and NJ can ever talk that it’s southern pride. thsts BS. Some of that has evolved into it. But that will always be about the rebellion. Just like the swastika will always represent fascism, Hitler and genocide.

I always remembered when I was a kid, my father saying that when he went down South, a lot of people think that they won the war.

Amen

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

Wow. Ok. I actually do have several black friends (one from deep south) who are very hspoy about this. They have said that they definitely feel uncomfortable and sometimes scared when they see that flag.

I never said all black people feel the same way! There are those who will be offended and those who see it as a source of southern pride. I don’t live in Mississippi so it is not up to me to decide what is displayed on their flag, that should be done by the citizens of Mississippi, all of them, not just a small handful of people.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

The American Flag will come under fire next, mark my words on that one.

Agree 100% on that! We’re already start to see it. People want to change the meaning and once that happens then what will people say?

 

[General_Tso]

They’ve given the confederate flag a meaning it never had and made it into something it never was. They are trying to change history which will not end well. We all know that slavery is wrong but that will never change the fact that it was legal and that the majority of the people, especially in the south, owned slaves. We also know that some slave owners were horrible and abusive but not all were. If we keep trying to suppress or erase our history we are destined to repeat it.

The South lost the war. The flag should have went away then.

 

[ceballoj]

I never said all black people feel the same way! There are those who will be offended and those who see it as a source of southern pride. I don’t live in Mississippi so it is not up to me to decide what is displayed on their flag, that should be done by the citizens of Mississippi, all of them, not just a small handful of people.

You are delusional to think most black people see that flag as a symbol of pride.

 

[Seton75]

We cant expect people from centuries ago to pass the smell test we use today. T

But the confederacy is different. They were traitors. We have two US forts named for men who bore arms against us. This is staggering to me.

We cant ignore history and context. A radical gay activist was quoted in the early 70s on a special about Stonewall that was shown in the past 5 yrs on TV that he realized that gays will never be able to marry. Times do change. History cant be forgotten. Our past us what is was, a far cry from our principles, and the majority of men I bet didnt even think about that.

 

[Seton75]

Go read about when some southern states started flying the confed flag. What a coincidence, as the civil rights movement was becoming real they decided to fly it again.

 

[hallgrad80]

Is the Confederacy the most romanticized violent insurgency in world history?

No
The most romanticized violent insurgency was the conflict between the plains Indian tribes and the US Calvary as they tried to keep settlers out and maintain their traditional land and That conflict with its horrible atrocities by both sides has been the subject of numerous movies and TV shows and are incredibly popular through out the world with the Calvary always the good guys and the plains Indian tribes the bad.

 

[SHUSA]

while alot of men defended the south because it was the place they were born (ex: General Lee), the entire reason for the war is that the south didnt want to give up their way of living, which was owning slaves. luckily the north turned to high density urban areas where slaves werent financially necessary so it was easy for them to abolish it.

nonetheless it was a war to keep slavery going. and the side leaving the union lost the war (despite the unions beat efforts to blow it).

get ride of the flags and the statues and put them in the museum. we arent getting rid of history, we are finally making history "history". germany doesnt deny the holocaust, but you dont see any hitler statues around. its a tough issue that will require a complicated solution. if we have to evaluate every statue so be it.

also, its just a state flag. most of them suck anyway.

 

[shu09]

while alot of men defended the south because it was the place they were born (ex: General Lee), the entire reason for the war is that the south didnt want to give up their way of living, which was owning slaves. luckily the north turned to high density urban areas where slaves werent financially necessary so it was easy for them to abolish it.

nonetheless it was a war to keep slavery going. and the side leaving the union lost the war (despite the unions beat efforts to blow it).

get ride of the flags and the statues and put them in the museum. we arent getting rid of history, we are finally making history "history". germany doesnt deny the holocaust, but you dont see any hitler statues around. its a tough issue that will require a complicated solution. if we have to evaluate every statue so be it.

also, its just a state flag. most of them suck anyway.

I agree on putting these things in a museum if necessary, but you and TheGucc used the Hitler comparison which doesn't make much sense to me. Hitler was a psychotic, genocidal maniac who literally killed millions of innocent people and wanted to conquer the world to spread his disgusting vision. He is the worst of the worst.

People who owned slaves and abused them are certainly bad people in that sense, but there are different degrees here. They certainly can't be compared to Hitler apples to apples. This is an apples to oranges debate. For instance, I believe monuments to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson should stay up because they are two people who were critical to the founding of the United States, despite the fact that they were slave owners.

 

[hinson32]

They’ve given the confederate flag a meaning it never had and made it into something it never was. They are trying to change history which will not end well. We all know that slavery is wrong but that will never change the fact that it was legal and that the majority of the people, especially in the south, owned slaves. We also know that some slave owners were horrible and abusive but not all were. If we keep trying to suppress or erase our history we are destined to repeat it.

It represents a country that went to war against the United States. Plus, the reason it went to war was to preserve slavery. There is no place for this flag.

BTW, Germany has no monuments to Nazis and no one flies a Nazi flag. However, everyone remembers the history of Hitler and the Nazis.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

It represents a country that went to war against the United States. Plus, the reason it went to war was to preserve slavery. There is no place for this flag.

BTW, Germany has no monuments to Nazis and no one flies a Nazi flag. However, everyone remembers the history of Hitler and the Nazis.

the confederacy was barely recognized or accepted by any european nation as a standalone entity.
typically when territories or a country has internal conflict that escalates to war it just means that thousands died on both sides, civilians died and suffered on both sides and in this case african americans were collateral damage in the aftermath

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

I have no problem if people down south have pride in the flag. Hundreds of thousands of men died, and I am sure their relatives see the flag as a tribute to their relatives who fought for their home. Let's remember many of the people who fought did not own slaves. I'm not going to judge a man for doing something that was accepted at the time, which was owning slaves. I do know that the people who enlisted from the south and north had brass balls. You people realize there were slaves in the northern states as well right? NJ had slaves until 1865, so they're as bad as the south. We can all agree in our modern world there is no place for slavery, yet it still happens in Africa and China.

The people of Mississippi should vote on the issue. How is that hard to understand?

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

The South lost the war. The flag should have went away then.

Agreed but for whatever reason it didn’t.

 

[papacheesy2]

Ah yes, this feels like relevant basketball news.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

You are delusional to think most black people see that flag as a symbol of pride.

I never said most black people! Read what I wrote, this is part of the problem. I said southerners, especially southerners whose families can be traced back to the Civil War era and, again, it won’t be everyone. Nothing is ever 100%.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

It represents a country that went to war against the United States. Plus, the reason it went to war was to preserve slavery. There is no place for this flag.

BTW, Germany has no monuments to Nazis and no one flies a Nazi flag. However, everyone remembers the history of Hitler and the Nazis.

Please see shu09’s comments right above yours. It addresses this perfectly.

 

[Seton75]

I have no problem if people down south have pride in the flag. Hundreds of thousands of men died, and I am sure their relatives see the flag as a tribute to their relatives who fought for their home. Let's remember many of the people who fought did not own slaves. I'm not going to judge a man for doing something that was accepted at the time, which was owning slaves. I do know that the people who enlisted from the south and north had brass balls. You people realize there were slaves in the northern states as well right? We can all agree in our modern world there is no place for slavery, yet it still happens in Africa and China.

The people of Mississippi should vote on the issue. How is that hard to understand?

Why are these traitors to be given more respect than other traitors who did violence against America for their cause? They bore arms against America. I dont see why that is not end of story. I shoot an America soldier, I must be judged by that.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

I have no problem if people down south have pride in the flag. Hundreds of thousands of men died, and I am sure their relatives see the flag as a tribute to their relatives who fought for their home. Let's remember many of the people who fought did not own slaves. I'm not going to judge a man for doing something that was accepted at the time, which was owning slaves. I do know that the people who enlisted from the south and north had brass balls. You people realize there were slaves in the northern states as well right? NJ had slaves until 1865, so they're as bad as the south. We can all agree in our modern world there is no place for slavery, yet it still happens in Africa and China.

The people of Mississippi should vote on the issue. How is that hard to understand?

Amen! This is exactly my point.

 

[ceballoj]

Ah yes, this feels like relevant basketball news.

And it was started by the moderator

 

[SHUSA]

I agree on putting these things in a museum if necessary, but you and TheGucc used the Hitler comparison which doesn't make much sense to me. Hitler was a psychotic, genocidal maniac who literally killed millions of innocent people and wanted to conquer the world to spread his disgusting vision. He is the worst of the worst.

People who owned slaves and abused them are certainly bad people in that sense, but there are different degrees here. They certainly can't be compared to Hitler apples to apples. This is an apples to oranges debate. For instance, I believe monuments to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson should stay up because they are two people who were critical to the founding of the United States, despite the fact that they were slave owners.

I dont agree with any of what you said and its kind of frightening because it seems you are going out of the way to justify it.

is hitler the bar? its not apples to oranges. it IS apples to apples. theyre both bad apples. just because hitler was atrocious doesnt mean that other people cant also be bad men, and their statues taken down.

thats why i think its fair to assess each statue. make a committee for it. probably not that hard. i dont see any jeff or gw statues being taken down. but if people want to let it be assessed. it will surely lose.

by your logic
"what should we do with the Bedfort Forest statue?"
"eh let it stay its not like he was hitler!"

 

[Piratz]

Man, we need a game. To debate genocide vs. slavery is something. Grim.

 

[Piratz]

No
The most romanticized violent insurgency was the conflict between the plains Indian tribes and the US Calvary as they tried to keep settlers out and maintain their traditional land and That conflict with its horrible atrocities by both sides has been the subject of numerous movies and TV shows and are incredibly popular through out the world with the Calvary always the good guys and the plains Indian tribes the bad.

The glory of imperialism.

 

[sami]

And it was started by the moderator

Basketball relevance is that it was a follow up that the SEC was no longer to hold championships in the state of Mississippi due to the flag. This opens that back up for the NCAA.

It’s up to the whack jobs on this site to get it pushed to LOTS.

 

[Halldan1]

OK, when I posted this ESPN article that did touch on sports I understood eventually it would take the path that it took, and now as many of our readers have had their say here I will be moving this to LOTS in a short while. Continue the debate there.

 

[radecicco]

My goodness. Not all slave owners were horrible and abusive? Please study history seriously before making such statements.

Yes, our history is complicated. But we can safely say no slaves wanted to be in bondage and none would say they weren’t abused. Sure some slavers began treating their slaves a little “better” in terms of food and shelter. Why? because their wealth was invested in them, that’s why. They could work them harder for longer.

But the slavers had the ultimate power, if you didn't stay in line you were severely punished. And if you did stay in line, you were deprived of education, your wife or daughter could be raped, if you tried to escape to freedom you were hunted down, you had to work in gangs under the gaze of overseers, and oh yeah, they could destroy your family at any time by selling off your husband or son. The psychological oppression was as bad as the physical abuse.

It tough enough debating Covid, but I just couldn’t let this one go. Yes, please bring back the games or land a good recruit!

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

My goodness. Not all slave owners were horrible and abusive? Please study history seriously before making such statements.

Yes, our history is complicated. But we can safely say no slaves wanted to be in bondage and none would say they weren’t abused. Sure some slavers began treating their slaves a little “better” in terms of food and shelter. Why? because their wealth was invested in them, that’s why. They could work them harder for longer.

But the slavers had the ultimate power, if you didn't stay in line you were severely punished. And if you did stay in line, you were deprived of education, your wife or daughter could be raped, if you tried to escape to freedom you were hunted down, you had to work in gangs under the gaze of overseers, and oh yeah, they could destroy your family at any time by selling off your husband or son. The psychological oppression was as bad as the physical abuse.

It tough enough debating Covid, but I just couldn’t let this one go. Yes, please bring back the games or land a good recruit!

Any blame for the South's evil lie on northern merchants and leading families who got filthy rich by bringing the slaves to the US? Or are we going to ignore the northern elites who helped supply the slaves?