Elizabeth Warren’s Wealth Tax

[cernjSHU]

Warren wants to tax anyone who has over $50 million 2% tax and anyone over a billion a 3% tax which would happen every year. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/02/eli...ple-would-rather-be-rich-and-pay-the-tax.html

Sounds like a ridiculous plan for many reasons. I have no idea why they would not concentrate on fixing the tax code by doing a multiple of things like raising the corporate tax to something reasonable like 28%, instituting the Warren Buffet rule. There is no question that the super wealthy are paying too little in taxes in terms of percentage of their earnings. But this is just makes a joke out of The Whole discussion. I hope Biden puts the quick end to this legislation.

 

[shu09]

It's pure resentment and jealousy of people who have done well for themselves.

 

[SHUSA]

i like it with one change, the money goes directly to st jude and local childrens hospitals.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

i like it with one change, the money goes directly to st jude and local childrens hospitals.

Now this is a great idea.

 

[SHUSA]

Now this is a great idea.

these people have more money then they even know what to do with, or could ever use.

i did the math that bezos could spend $120k per day for the next FIVE THOUSAND YEARS.

 

[shu09]

i like it with one change, the money goes directly to st jude and local childrens hospitals.

Why just there? Why not checks to people making under $50K? Why not other charities? See the can of worms this stuff opens up....

 

[SHUSA]

Why just there? Why not checks to people making under $50K? Why not other charities? See the can of worms this stuff opens up....

easy and worthy can on worms. were about to fly a remote helicopter on mars, i think we can tackle this mountain.

lazy answer.

 

[ed odowd]

Ridiculous high income tax rates never bring in the amount proponents anticipate.Does Warren believe super rich will not figure out ways to avoid this.They have found ways with high income tax rates in the past.

 

[cernjSHU]

It's pure resentment and jealousy of people who have done well for themselves.

See this is why when Warren proposes something like this, it takes the discussion off the rails. It allows you to say it is about jealousy of the rich instead of addressing the real issue of closing loop holes and changing the rates so that The super rich will pay more of an effective tax percentage than I do. Currently, I pay more of an effective tax rate than Buffet. That’s ridiculous. None of the posts talk about the real issue. It all gets sidetracked which makes me angry at Warren.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

It's pure resentment and jealousy of people who have done well for themselves.

Shouldn't the most well doing people pay their fair share?

 

[Merge]

Shouldn't the most well doing people pay their fair share?

Yep, they should and the problem is that they don't earn wages like the rest of us. Warren is trying to address that, but her plan is not very well thought out from my view.

 

[shu09]

Shouldn't the most well doing people pay their fair share?

They already do.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

They already do.

In spirit not reality

 

[cernjSHU]

They already do.

So the super rich who make money on their money are taxed on capital gains tax at 20%. No matter how many billions they make that year. Meanwhile, my effective tax rate because my income comes from a salary pay an equal or higher amount in effective tax rates. This is the inherent unfairness in the system. There has to be a point where capital gains gets treated as ordinary income. That figure can be at $1 million a year for example as suggested by Warren Buffet. .

 

[shu09]

So the super rich who make money on their money are taxed on capital gains tax at 20%. No matter how many billions they make that year. Meanwhile, my effective tax rate because my income comes from a salary pay an equal or higher amount in effective tax rates. This is the inherent unfairness in the system. There has to be a point where capital gains gets treated as ordinary income. That figure can be at $1 million a year for example as suggested by Warren Buffet. .

I don't believe capital gains should be treated as ordinary income. I believe people should be encouraged and rewarded for investing. If you want to introduce a higher tax at extremely high levels, that's something I wouldn't necessarily fight against.

 

[HALL85]

How about an overall tax strategy instead of cherry picking?

How about we look at the spending side?

This is just another dumb idea to pick on somebody and make them look like the villain.

 

[cernjSHU]

I don't believe capital gains should be treated as ordinary income. I believe people should be encouraged and rewarded for investing. If you want to introduce a higher tax at extremely high levels, that's something I wouldn't necessarily fight against.

You can tax it up to 99%. It won't matter when capital gains tax is at 20% for all money made. Wall St takes full advantage of this tax break. For an example, What is Tim Cook's base salary? Its like $3 million a year. Big bucks but paltry when compared to his overall compensation But his overall compensation is $155 million which is comprised of stock awards.. When that is converted into cash, that is only taxed at 20%.

 

[cernjSHU]

How about an overall tax strategy instead of cherry picking?

How about we look at the spending side?

This is just another dumb idea to pick on somebody and make them look like the villain.

I am giving examples of what needs to be corrected. I am not tax expert but these few examples are painfully obvious. I am sure there are tons of other loopholes that should be closed and other regs to be dealt with.

With regard to spending, what does that have to do with taxes? Now, if you want to talk about the national debt, sure that is a discussion. However, all these debt hawks from the Republican Party, where were they in last 4 years where they spent like drunken sailors even though there were no earth shattering events like 9/11 and war or the financial crisis?

 

[Hallsome]

I am giving examples of what needs to be corrected. I am not tax expert but these few examples are painfully obvious. I am sure there are tons of other loopholes that should be closed and other regs to be dealt with.

With regard to spending, what does that have to do with taxes? Now, if you want to talk about the national debt, sure that is a discussion. However, all these debt hawks from the Republican Party, where were they in last 4 years where they spent like drunken sailors even though there were no earth shattering events like 9/11 and war or the financial crisis?

Trump and all Rs spent lot. What say you now?

 

[dehere23]

Shouldn't the most well doing people pay their fair share?

Many of the uber-wealthy have all kinds of loopholes, investments and ways to protect their ultimate taxable income.

The people in the $300,000/400,000 - $1 million range get destroyed with taxes because most of them don't have the options to protect wealth like those who have millions or inherit a bunch of family money, property and/or trusts. Especially if you are a W-2 worker and don't have your own business and creative options to reduce taxable income. Confession - I am one of these people. I work my a** off - nights, weekends, vacations and holidays. My best year to date (this year) I'm at the top of that range, and coming up the ranks I was at the bottom. More recently, before this year, I was in the middle-upper-half of that range.

I'm not "rich", and I don't consider myself "rich". If you live in Bergen County with that type of money (as I do), and have multiple kids (as I do), and don't come from family money or wealth (whether via investments, trusts, property, etc) (as I don't), you aren't rich. You are comfortable, and perhaps very comfortable if like me you live very much within your means.

When I hear people say I'm not "paying my fair share", I go ballistic. That is complete BS. Without being precise, I'm pretty sure I paid somewhere in the range of approximately $420,000-$440,000 in federal and state income taxes last year, excluding my property taxes (which are high). All so the government can cut stimulus checks to people who don't need it or don't deserve it (and many who have received shouldn't have), and so many (not all) the teachers in my district can put in 1/4 to 1/2 the job over the past year. So don't tell me I didn't pay my freaking fair share. I paid my "fair share" and the "fair share" of many others.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

How much does the US government stand to lose if a few people follow the lead of Jim Ratcliffe? I think politicians forget wealthy people have the means to pick up and leave. What would happen if Bezos moved to Monaco tomorrow?

 

[cernjSHU]

Many of the uber-wealthy have all kinds of loopholes, investments and ways to protect their ultimate taxable income.

The people in the $300,000/400,000 - $1 million range get destroyed with taxes because most of them don't have the options to protect wealth like those who have millions or inherit a bunch of family money, property and/or trusts. Especially if you are a W-2 worker and don't have your own business and creative options to reduce taxable income. Confession - I am one of these people. I work my a** off - nights, weekends, vacations and holidays. My best year to date (this year) I'm at the top of that range, and coming up the ranks I was at the bottom. More recently, before this year, I was in the middle-upper-half of that range.

I'm not "rich", and I don't consider myself "rich". If you live in Bergen County with that type of money (as I do), and have multiple kids (as I do), and don't come from family money or wealth (whether via investments, trusts, property, etc) (as I don't), you aren't rich. You are comfortable, and perhaps very comfortable if like me you live very much within your means.

When I hear people say I'm not "paying my fair share", I go ballistic. That is complete BS. Without being precise, I'm pretty sure I paid somewhere in the range of approximately $420,000-$440,000 in federal and state income taxes last year, excluding my property taxes (which are high). All so the government can cut stimulus checks to people who don't need it or don't deserve it (and many who have received shouldn't have), and so many (not all) the teachers in my district can put in 1/4 to 1/2 the job over the past year. So don't tell me I didn't pay my freaking fair share. I paid my "fair share" and the "fair share" of many others.

So why are you angry about those who get stimulus checks and not with the uber wealthy who although are much more wealthy than you, but they pay an effective tax rate much less than you? Perhaps a 1/3 less. If you are making close to a Million a year congratulations, you are wealthy.

I gave you my examples above of how people get away with taxes. I understand that you are pissed,but it’s misdirected.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

Many of the uber-wealthy have all kinds of loopholes, investments and ways to protect their ultimate taxable income.

The people in the $300,000/400,000 - $1 million range get destroyed with taxes because most of them don't have the options to protect wealth like those who have millions or inherit a bunch of family money, property and/or trusts. Especially if you are a W-2 worker and don't have your own business and creative options to reduce taxable income. Confession - I am one of these people. I work my a** off - nights, weekends, vacations and holidays. My best year to date (this year) I'm at the top of that range, and coming up the ranks I was at the bottom. More recently, before this year, I was in the middle-upper-half of that range.

I'm not "rich", and I don't consider myself "rich". If you live in Bergen County with that type of money (as I do), and have multiple kids (as I do), and don't come from family money or wealth (whether via investments, trusts, property, etc) (as I don't), you aren't rich. You are comfortable, and perhaps very comfortable if like me you live very much within your means.

When I hear people say I'm not "paying my fair share", I go ballistic. That is complete BS. Without being precise, I'm pretty sure I paid somewhere in the range of approximately $420,000-$440,000 in federal and state income taxes last year, excluding my property taxes (which are high). All so the government can cut stimulus checks to people who don't need it or don't deserve it (and many who have received shouldn't have), and so many (not all) the teachers in my district can put in 1/4 to 1/2 the job over the past year. So don't tell me I didn't pay my freaking fair share. I paid my "fair share" and the "fair share" of many others.

It sounds like you're paying a fair share. I would say anyone making upwards of 500K a year is very wealthy. Even after taxes, 401K, etc you've gotta be clearing 250K+. I'd imagine you live a very comfortable lifestyle. That shouldn't be held against you btw.

 

[shu09]

Many of the uber-wealthy have all kinds of loopholes, investments and ways to protect their ultimate taxable income.

The people in the $300,000/400,000 - $1 million range get destroyed with taxes because most of them don't have the options to protect wealth like those who have millions or inherit a bunch of family money, property and/or trusts. Especially if you are a W-2 worker and don't have your own business and creative options to reduce taxable income. Confession - I am one of these people. I work my a** off - nights, weekends, vacations and holidays. My best year to date (this year) I'm at the top of that range, and coming up the ranks I was at the bottom. More recently, before this year, I was in the middle-upper-half of that range.

I'm not "rich", and I don't consider myself "rich". If you live in Bergen County with that type of money (as I do), and have multiple kids (as I do), and don't come from family money or wealth (whether via investments, trusts, property, etc) (as I don't), you aren't rich. You are comfortable, and perhaps very comfortable if like me you live very much within your means.

When I hear people say I'm not "paying my fair share", I go ballistic. That is complete BS. Without being precise, I'm pretty sure I paid somewhere in the range of approximately $420,000-$440,000 in federal and state income taxes last year, excluding my property taxes (which are high). All so the government can cut stimulus checks to people who don't need it or don't deserve it (and many who have received shouldn't have), and so many (not all) the teachers in my district can put in 1/4 to 1/2 the job over the past year. So don't tell me I didn't pay my freaking fair share. I paid my "fair share" and the "fair share" of many others.

I'm normally with you and I agree in principle with what you're saying, but if you're paying over $400K in taxes then your salary is approaching a million. I don't know your entire situation and apologize if this sounds crass, but I'd say you're more than comfortable. Most people will never make that much money in a year. For some it could take over a decade to upwards of a good chunk of your working life. I make far, far less than you do (not even the same zip code lol), and would describe my situation as comfortable.

Kudos to you for earning the life you have, but I would be a little more sensitive to those who aren't quite as fortunate.

 

[dehere23]

So why are you angry about those who get stimulus checks and not with the uber wealthy who although are much more wealthy than you, but they pay an effective tax rate much less than you? Perhaps a 1/3 less. If you are making close to a Million a year congratulations, you are wealthy.

I gave you my examples above of how people get away with taxes. I understand that you are pissed,but it’s misdirected.

Oh I have a major problem with the tax code as it relates to the highest earners as well. Trust me. And I’m not angry per se with those that received stimulus checks when there was no basis for that or others who reap the benefit of our ridiculous government spending sprees. Some of my immediate family and friends fall into that bucket. But I know loads of people that got multiple $1400 checks who have been gainfully employed, paid in full, have great benefits and a cushy job. Those checks should have been directed at the people and businesses impacted negatively by the lockdowns and pandemic.

 

[dehere23]

I'm normally with you and I agree in principle with what you're saying, but if you're paying over $400K in taxes then your salary is approaching a million. I don't know your entire situation and apologize if this sounds crass, but I'd say you're than comfortable. Most people will never make that much money in a year. For some it could take over a decade to upwards of a good chunk of your working life. I make far, far less than you do (not even the same zip code lol), and would describe my situation as comfortable.

Kudos to you for earning the life you have, but I would be a little more sensitive to those who aren't quite as fortunate.

I hear you. But in my profession what I earn ebbs and flows and I could make 1/4 this year of what I made last just as easily. I’m grateful of course and I work my a$$ off in a stress filled job that is hard and requires all kinds of sacrifice away from time spent with family and friends.

What I was trying to express, and what gets me incensed, is when I hear that people who fall into my bucket aren’t paying their “fair share”. I made a lot of money last year and I paid not only my fair share but that of many others. Paying taxes is patriotic, at least to some extent, in my view. And if I thought my tax contribution was going to help people who are less fortunate and truly needed it, I could live with that, because rising tides lift all boats, and I care about people who are struggling. But I have siblings, in-laws, and friends who are comfortable, weren’t impacted job-wise one iota by the pandemic, and collected multiple stimulus checks this past year when they hardly worked at all. My youngest brother is a single guy/guidance counselor, making just under the thresholds set for those checks, was paid fully throughout, has great benefits, and whose job had admittedly (by him) to be a cushy, joke over this past year because of what’s going on with education. Those checks shouldn’t have gone to people like him, any they were funded or will be funded by tax dollars from people in my group. And there are countless examples of that with government spending. If you told me that I paid a boatload in tax this year and that money went to people living below the poverty line, folks who were unemployed because of COVID, to business owners who had their lives wrecked, etc, I’d be OK with that. But the reality is it doesn’t.

 

[shu09]

You're not wrong. The dirty little secret about the stimulus checks is they are sold by the politicians and media as "aid" to the people but the real purpose is to have them be spent on products. Where does most of that money end up? You guessed it - Target, Walmart, Apple, you name it. In the end, it's a massive transfer of wealth from the government to the biggest corporations.

 

[SHUSA]

Many of the uber-wealthy have all kinds of loopholes, investments and ways to protect their ultimate taxable income.

The people in the $300,000/400,000 - $1 million range get destroyed with taxes because most of them don't have the options to protect wealth like those who have millions or inherit a bunch of family money, property and/or trusts. Especially if you are a W-2 worker and don't have your own business and creative options to reduce taxable income. Confession - I am one of these people. I work my a** off - nights, weekends, vacations and holidays. My best year to date (this year) I'm at the top of that range, and coming up the ranks I was at the bottom. More recently, before this year, I was in the middle-upper-half of that range.

I'm not "rich", and I don't consider myself "rich". If you live in Bergen County with that type of money (as I do), and have multiple kids (as I do), and don't come from family money or wealth (whether via investments, trusts, property, etc) (as I don't), you aren't rich. You are comfortable, and perhaps very comfortable if like me you live very much within your means.

When I hear people say I'm not "paying my fair share", I go ballistic. That is complete BS. Without being precise, I'm pretty sure I paid somewhere in the range of approximately $420,000-$440,000 in federal and state income taxes last year, excluding my property taxes (which are high). All so the government can cut stimulus checks to people who don't need it or don't deserve it (and many who have received shouldn't have), and so many (not all) the teachers in my district can put in 1/4 to 1/2 the job over the past year. So don't tell me I didn't pay my freaking fair share. I paid my "fair share" and the "fair share" of many others.

you pay $440k in taxes?

i lost my job but didnt get that large $1200 check. earned enough money in 2018 when the stimulus refrenced. but that wasnt that much and without a job through 2020 i could have easily used the that check.

some people got it that didnt deserve it. some people didnt get it that did deserve it. but a large amount of people got it who DID deserve it.

and im not sure about what shu09 said. for sure the idea and motive is transfer of wealth. but i think most people either saved it or paid bills. hes def right about transfer of wealth.

good on you for being super comfortable. youre in the minority.

 

[dehere23]

And to bailout the underfunded public pensions, the biggest power base of one party. My Mom is a retired inner city public school teacher with a good pension and she thinks it’s criminal. My mother in-law got a stimulus check because of some oddity in what she made last year compared to prior ones, and she donated it to a local shelter because she thought it was BS. I have a friend who has incredible family wealth - millions that are his tied up in family accounts and the like. He’s also a public school teacher - gym - where he basically hasn’t worked the past year. Because the stimulus thresholds were based on his W-2 income from last year (or whatever it was) HE got multiple stimulus checks. He also works on the summer at one of those day camps as one of the “sports guys”. That camp was closed because of COVID. So, guess what - he qualified, filed for and received unemployment checks this summer because of the closure. And, on the side, him and those other camp people contacted the parents of the kids who they know from camp, and collected a good amount of off-the-books cash money running sports activities in the backyards of those families. None of which will be taxed. So a guy who has more money in the bank than anyone I know, got multiple stimulus checks and collected enhanced unemployment benefits, while raking in a good amount of tax-free cash this summer playing with kids outside. This is why I go nuts about this “fair share” tax stuff.

 

[dehere23]

you pay $440k in taxes?

Last year, in that ballpark, perhaps $20k or so less. It was a windfall year and I worked everyday, including weekends, except for Thanksgiving and Christmas. I’m a regular wage earner subject to both NY and NJ state tax, in addition to federal.

 

[SHUSA]

Last year, in that ballpark, perhaps $20k or so less. It was a windfall year and I worked everyday, including weekends, except for Thanksgiving and Christmas. I’m a regular wage earner subject to both NY and NJ state tax, in addition to federal.

you shouldnt get charged nj + ny state tax. wx: if each is 8% you dont owe 16%
eh what do i know im also not even in the ballpark. not even warching the baseball game at that point!

 

[dehere23]

you pay $440k in taxes?

i lost my job but didnt get that large $1200 check. earned enough money in 2018 when the stimulus refrenced. but that wasnt that much and without a job through 2020 i could have easily used the that check.

some people got it that didnt deserve it. some people didnt get it that did deserve it. but a large amount of people got it who DID deserve it.

and im not sure about what shu09 said. for sure the idea and motive is transfer of wealth. but i think most people either saved it or paid bills. hes def right about transfer of wealth.

good on you for being super comfortable. youre in the minority.

I’m sorry you lost your job and hope you get back on your feet soon. The stimulus checks and unemployment benefits related to COVID should go directly to people like you. To help out folks like you. And I’d be happy if my tax dollars flowed that way, because it’s the right moral thing to happen, and the shoe could just as easily be on the other foot. Helping people struggling is patriotic.

I can tell you with certainty that I know dozens of people who received COVID stimulus checks who did not need it.

 

[dehere23]

you shouldnt get charged nj + ny state tax. wx: if each is 8% you dont owe 16%
eh what do i know im also not even in the ballpark. not even warching the baseball game at that point!

You can get some back in the refund, theoretically, but if you are based in NYC and live in NJ, they can get you with certain NYC taxes.

 

[SHUSA]

I’m sorry you lost your job and hope you get back on your feet soon. The stimulus checks and unemployment benefits related to COVID should go directly to people like you. To help out folks like you. And I’d be happy if my tax dollars flowed that way, because it’s the right moral thing to happen, and the shoe could just as easily be on the other foot. Helping people struggling is patriotic.

I can tell you with certainty that I know dozens of people who received COVID stimulus checks who did not need it.

i have a job now, tough thing to do in a new city during a pandemic. not exactly in the better situation i was lre pandemic, but i wont be broke.

im lucky enough to realize im still relatively well off. i dont need, or deserve an extravagent life. there are people way worse off. at the very least im relatively healthy. im glad your wife donated her check to those who really needed it.

 

[dehere23]

My mother in law, and yes. She never took a cent of that money. Also my father in law who owns a small business was able to basically come out OK despite the pandemic. He had to be creative but he did fine enough. He obtained one very small grant through one of the programs available for small businesses - one he doesn’t have to pay back - and at year-end basically took an amount equal to that from his own pocket and gave it to a local bar/restaurant in our town that was hit hard. The owner was emotional and safe to say my father in law will be drinking their free for a while once it opens back up.

 

[cernjSHU]

And to bailout the underfunded public pensions, the biggest power base of one party. My Mom is a retired inner city public school teacher with a good pension and she thinks it’s criminal. My mother in-law got a stimulus check because of some oddity in what she made last year compared to prior ones, and she donated it to a local shelter because she thought it was BS. I have a friend who has incredible family wealth - millions that are his tied up in family accounts and the like. He’s also a public school teacher - gym - where he basically hasn’t worked the past year. Because the stimulus thresholds were based on his W-2 income from last year (or whatever it was) HE got multiple stimulus checks. He also works on the summer at one of those day camps as one of the “sports guys”. That camp was closed because of COVID. So, guess what - he qualified, filed for and received unemployment checks this summer because of the closure. And, on the side, him and those other camp people contacted the parents of the kids who they know from camp, and collected a good amount of off-the-books cash money running sports activities in the backyards of those families. None of which will be taxed. So a guy who has more money in the bank than anyone I know, got multiple stimulus checks and collected enhanced unemployment benefits, while raking in a good amount of tax-free cash this summer playing with kids outside. This is why I go nuts about this “fair share” tax stuff.

Again, it seems you are more upset that people who didn’t deserve checks that got checks. Well ok, you are right. But the government is trying to help the vast amount of people who did need it. Was the legislation perfect no. However it’s $1400. And it was done in a quick manner. There are a lot of things that piss me off how people take advantage. I have tenant who moved into a condo I own This past November. Paid two months and stopped paying and I can’t evict because of the moratorium. The tenant is working so not affected by CoVid just taking advantage

But, you pay your fair share but so many other in that bracket don’t and they are the ones that can afford it the most to pay taxes. I am not in your bracket but I surely pay enough in taxes and it drives me crazy that those with all the access to the levers of government and power pay the least. They are not getting a $1400 windfall they are getting hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions of dollars windfall.

 

[Pirata]

these people have more money then they even know what to do with, or could ever use.

i did the math that bezos could spend $120k per day for the next FIVE THOUSAND YEARS.

My response is not intended to argue or counter you post.

Your post highlights a fundamental problem with the discussion on this topic.

The issue is not the fact that the ultra wealthy have a lot of money that they could spend and have all kinds of nice things. When your reach a certain level of wealth, spending or wanting is no longer a part of your mentality. I have two friends with net worth more than $1B. Both have long gotten over the fact that they have more money than they can spend. Both have set aside provisions for their families. They both share the challenge of what now do with it. How much philanthropy and to who? How much to continue to invest in their business? What new businesses can be started? etc.

The issue is about who should have control of the assets.

For starters, Bezos net worth is calculated on the stock price of Amazon. He could never liquidate and get 100% of that amount. How much he could get is a matter of debate.

Second, the wealth is not in cash under a mattress. The wealth is scattered into the economy.

The issue is how much should be left in the control of Bezos and others like him and is society better off having him control where the assets are deployed or is it better to have the government control that deployment.

There is some base amount of justifiable taxes that a government should impose. The government does provide services that are required for Bezos and others to make his billions. BTW, I believe that was the essence of the first half of Obama's remarks to Joe the Plumber and I agree with it. I don't agree with the second half that the government then has right to take it and distribute it.

I would argue that taking 28% of profits is too high. I believe that the government does too much that is outside of the scope of necessary things for commerce and the safety and stability of society. I also think they do an abysmal job with regard to prudent financial management and efficiency of services.

IMO, Warren's tax is a state sanctioned shakedown. It is not much different than than organized crime demanding a 10% vig on someone's business.

I suspect I will get the "Amazon did not pay any taxes schtick". That is another discussion.

 

[Merge]

Many of the uber-wealthy have all kinds of loopholes, investments and ways to protect their ultimate taxable income.

The people in the $300,000/400,000 - $1 million range get destroyed with taxes because most of them don't have the options to protect wealth like those who have millions or inherit a bunch of family money, property and/or trusts. Especially if you are a W-2 worker and don't have your own business and creative options to reduce taxable income. Confession - I am one of these people. I work my a** off - nights, weekends, vacations and holidays. My best year to date (this year) I'm at the top of that range, and coming up the ranks I was at the bottom. More recently, before this year, I was in the middle-upper-half of that range.

I'm not "rich", and I don't consider myself "rich". If you live in Bergen County with that type of money (as I do), and have multiple kids (as I do), and don't come from family money or wealth (whether via investments, trusts, property, etc) (as I don't), you aren't rich. You are comfortable, and perhaps very comfortable if like me you live very much within your means.

When I hear people say I'm not "paying my fair share", I go ballistic. That is complete BS. Without being precise, I'm pretty sure I paid somewhere in the range of approximately $420,000-$440,000 in federal and state income taxes last year, excluding my property taxes (which are high). All so the government can cut stimulus checks to people who don't need it or don't deserve it (and many who have received shouldn't have), and so many (not all) the teachers in my district can put in 1/4 to 1/2 the job over the past year. So don't tell me I didn't pay my freaking fair share. I paid my "fair share" and the "fair share" of many others.

By any metric, you are rich. You’re earning more than more than 99% of wage earners. Not a knock on you at all. That is great. You might feel you get lumped in with the ”fair share” discussion but if you’re a wage earner, they really aren’t talking about you. The "fair share" discussion is because there are people earning what you make and more who earn their living differently but their effective tax rate starts to go down well below yours.

On the stimulus. I get what you are saying, but it was never designed as replacement money. It was meant as economic stimulus to help the entire country. It was an investment to make sure that consumer confidence doesn't plummet, and to put money into the hands of people who will spend it.

Did some people need it? No.
Did we all benefit because those people in aggregate had more money to spend? Absolutely.

It's easy to look at anything we did as wasteful but much more difficult to understand what things look like had we not sent out that money to everyone. Does consumer confidence go down? Does spending go down? Do more businesses close? Does that create more job loss and more economic uncertainty?

There is a lot to that discussion, but we all benefited quite a bit by those payments, even if you didn't get one.

 

[Merge]

My response is not intended to argue or counter you post.

Your post highlights a fundamental problem with the discussion on this topic.

The issue is not the fact that the ultra wealthy have a lot of money that they could spend and have all kinds of nice things. When your reach a certain level of wealth, spending or wanting is no longer a part of your mentality. I have two friends with net worth more than $1B. Both have long gotten over the fact that they have more money than they can spend. Both have set aside provisions for their families. They both share the challenge of what now do with it. How much philanthropy and to who? How much to continue to invest in their business? What new businesses can be started? etc.

The issue is about who should have control of the assets.

For starters, Bezos net worth is calculated on the stock price of Amazon. He could never liquidate and get 100% of that amount. How much he could get is a matter of debate.

Second, the wealth is not in cash under a mattress. The wealth is scattered into the economy.

The issue is how much should be left in the control of Bezos and others like him and is society better off having him control where the assets are deployed or is it better to have the government control that deployment.

There is some base amount of justifiable taxes that a government should impose. The government does provide services that are required for Bezos and others to make his billions. BTW, I believe that was the essence of the first half of Obama's remarks to Joe the Plumber and I agree with it. I don't agree with the second half that the government then has right to take it a distribute it.

I would argue that taking 28% of profits is too high. I believe that the government does too much that is outside of the scope of necessary things for commerce and the safety and stability of society. I also think they do an abysmal job with regard to prudent financial management and efficiency of services.

IMO, Warren's tax is a state sanctioned shakedown. It is not much different than than organized crime demanding a 10% vig on someone's business.

I suspect I will get the "Amazon did not pay any taxes schtick". That is another discussion.

Good post. I'm with you on pretty much all of that.

 

[Pirata]

Did hell freeze over? LOL