Fan safety during COVID
- Thread starter BILL BELFER
- Start date
Lots of people suffered and died at home from emergency medical conditions, such as heart attacks, because they were scared into submission. They did not seek the care they needed at hospitals, which is why you're now seeing these PSA's encouraging people to go to the hospital if they need care. Hospitals are ghost towns today and very few were actually overwhelmed. Most were able to handle this perfectly fine.
The virus is going to run its course whether we lock down or not. It started with a few imported Chinese cases in Washington, but it really came hard from Europe into the NY area. We got it first, saw a spike and it receded. Now it is running its course through the rest of the country. You will see spikes in AZ, TX, etc., places that didn't have a problem in March and April as the virus has now reached them. Then it will eventually recede there as well, like it did here.
Never before has this country locked down healthy people and shut down business. This epidemic is a drop in the bucket compared to the Spanish Flu and is much more comparable to the Hong Kong flu of 1968. The US didn't lock down then. Coincidentally, we had riots and protests in the streets that year too. We still sent troops to Vietnam. It was business as usual and 100,000 Americans died in that epidemic (by 1968 population, a larger percentage than the percentage of the US population who has died this year).
If you peel back the onion on the last three months, it's really quite disturbing. Locking down was political opportunism at its boldest. Why is Andrew Cuomo threatening business owners and to even roll back NY's opening when they have hardly any cases now? This is in response to some video about people congregating on the street. Yet there are these huge protests and gatherings where, if what we had been told is true, the virus should be spreading like wildfire.Yet it isn't and governors aren't calling for those gatherings to disperse or be shut down. Ask yourself, why is that? When the government governs based on emotion, it is never good. Government needs to govern based on facts, and the facts say this is something to keep an eye on but life should go on as usual.
HALL85 works in healthcare from what I have gathered. He is in a position to understand this quite well.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
I can't believe anyone is defending these governor's anymore. Murphy has kept the state locked down, but violated his order to take part in a BLM protest. Asbury park stated they were opening resteraunts and Murphy is now suing Asbury Park.
It's reached a point where based on your political affiliation you are being allowed to practice your rights or not, and that's 100% not okay.
It's reached a point where based on your political affiliation you are being allowed to practice your rights or not, and that's 100% not okay.
Could turn out to be both. We were totally unprepared with testing, supplies, whatever. That was one of the major reasons there had to be a shutdown (right move, IMO). We have been playing catch-up since day one.
This country pays for an entire department of the Federal Government to be on top of these sorts of things. The CDC fiasco with the initial testing is an epic blunder.
The curve was flattened. NJ positive rate is down from 40%+ to 15%. Now it's political, so I have no idea where we are anymore and it gets tedious to follow because of all the politics.
This is a fair point and reasonable minds can differ. You do make a good argument about being unprepared. My feelings are this turned into a political stunt as well, but I think it happened far earlier than you do. It is fine to have disagreements like that and I respect it.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Absolutely a political aspect to this now. First there was the Russian collusion, couldn't get Trump there, then there was impeachment, that failed as well. Now there is Covid, a convenient time to levy unprecedented shutdowns for 3 months on a nation with a political election in 5 months, great way to shutter a great economy. If Covid doesn't defeat Trump, there will be something new in January.
Please, let's not get too political here or this will be another thread sent to Off the Ship.
Agreed.
Beyond the testing and preparation, another point that is not seeing enough light of day is what % of these deaths were the result of mismanagement at long-term care facilities? For example, in NJ, the State is publishing 12,625 deaths, of which 5,927 came from staff or patients in long-term care facilities. It's shocking, it's sad, it's outrageous to the extent there should be universal outrage, not just political.
https://www.nj.gov/health/cd/topics/covid2019_dashboard.shtml
Yep, really sad. Governors who are being praised in the media are solely responsible for this decision. It's despicable.
I didn’t know Rivals turned into Facebook. Can’t wait to see what everyone cooked for dinner. This is fun!!!!
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Agreed, although I have commented I think all of these threads should be on Life off the ship. All they do is divide the community on here.
Interesting to understand Vietnams strategy in dealing with COVID and seeing their incredible results. Stopped all flights/travel into the country, isolated villages/neighborhoods immediately after showing a few cases, contact surveillance and testing.
Care to actually discuss what you agree/disagree with instead of this immature reply?
And yet on the stories/interviews that are provided with in depth details about SHU BB there are very few responses and little feedback??????
Back to the question of fans, I would assume part of the analysis would be to gauge how many would actually attend? This virus has been such a moving target that it's difficult to judge that for November on June 15th (plus transmission difference in humid summer vs. cold), but they also have to make plans ahead of time.
Perhaps start with some due diligence by polling season ticket holders. While that group is more likely to attend compared to casual fans given the investment, at least it's something.
Perhaps start with some due diligence by polling season ticket holders. While that group is more likely to attend compared to casual fans given the investment, at least it's something.
Just got a call from Bloomfield Township.
Tomorrow, free virus tests for all residents available.
Tomorrow, free virus tests for all residents available.
At this point, I would guess that 75-80% of ticketholders will re-up and go to the games. We are not going to have a vaccine by then and I think there will be a good portion of any fan base that will be cautious.
The state and local governments are really pushing this as they want to show that their test numbers are high. But a test is only a snapshot in time. You could come back negative today, go to the supermarket or a protest tomorrow and come back positive.
I know that this a message board, designed for people to post messages, but don’t think when people don’t post or respond that the interview or news fell flat. A lot of times people will read something that’s really good, and as a sign of satisfaction, think that they have nothing to add to it. I’m sure that’s the case with a lot of the posts here. If you like a interview, but react in disbelief to a comment on a virus thread, we know which one people are more likely to respond to.
ok
1) "people died at home because they were SCARED INTO SUBMISSION" is a totally spurious claim
2) brooklyn hospitals were overwhelmed for a couple weeks, and the rest in the area weren't because masks and lockdowns stemmed the spread
3) "most were able to handle this" another spurious claim because they didn't have to because the lockdowns stemmed the spread
4) "it will recede in other states like it did in new york" -- we'll see. new york is a much denser place than texas or arizona but the lack of restrictions will cause a slow constant burn of hospitalizations that will not end for a while
5) "this is a drop in the bucket compared to the spanish flu" - the spanish flu had a higher IFR and was set in a world ravaged by world war i and killed 3% of the world's population. we would have locked down if we had a better handle on the situation and the world wasn't devastated by war. again 50 MILLION PEOPLE DIED
6) "this is like hong kong flu" no. the hong kong flu had an IFR of 0.06% and covid will likely end up being between 0.3% and 0.5%. also the flu had a seasonality that covid isn't displaying, was much better understood than a novel coronovirus, and they ultimately developed a vaccine for it, which is still a question mark for covid
7) "the virus should be spreading like wildfire" Rt rates around the country have been on the rise for the last few weeks and it can take 4-6 weeks to see the effects of transmission from demonstrations and reopenings. we'll talk in about 3 weeks
1) wrong -- https://www.aei.org/op-eds/the-coronavirus-is-killing-thousands-so-is-the-lockdown/
2) I do not disagree a few (very few in fact) hospitals were overwhelmed. The vast majority of the system was able to handle it, and it wasn't because of lockdowns. The virus was spreading rapidly in early March and you saw those hospitalizations in mid-late March.
3) See above, they were indeed able to handle it.
4) NY IS denser, which is why it spread more rapidly there. Because other places are not as dense, it won't spread as rapidly. The "slow burn" was literally the strategy those who said we had to "flatten the curve" advocated for. This is a good thing as it does not overwhelm the system.
5) It is without a doubt a drop in the bucket compared to Spanish Flu. As you said, 50M died in that worldwide. This event has only killed about 430,000 to date, most of them elderly and with preexisting conditions. The Spanish Flu killed so many young, healthy people, in addition to the elderly. A totally different disease and far more virulent than what we're dealing with today.
6) Bottom line is the HK Flu killed approximately the same number of people when you adjust for population at the time.
7) I thought "wait two weeks" was the standard response among those who think this is the apocalypse. Now it's three weeks, or even 4-6?! LOL!
2) I do not disagree a few (very few in fact) hospitals were overwhelmed. The vast majority of the system was able to handle it, and it wasn't because of lockdowns. The virus was spreading rapidly in early March and you saw those hospitalizations in mid-late March.
3) See above, they were indeed able to handle it.
4) NY IS denser, which is why it spread more rapidly there. Because other places are not as dense, it won't spread as rapidly. The "slow burn" was literally the strategy those who said we had to "flatten the curve" advocated for. This is a good thing as it does not overwhelm the system.
5) It is without a doubt a drop in the bucket compared to Spanish Flu. As you said, 50M died in that worldwide. This event has only killed about 430,000 to date, most of them elderly and with preexisting conditions. The Spanish Flu killed so many young, healthy people, in addition to the elderly. A totally different disease and far more virulent than what we're dealing with today.
6) Bottom line is the HK Flu killed approximately the same number of people when you adjust for population at the time.
7) I thought "wait two weeks" was the standard response among those who think this is the apocalypse. Now it's three weeks, or even 4-6?! LOL!
That seems about right to me, simply based on conversation.
I wonder what # of tickets sold per game makes it sensible to open The Rock. Or is what @General_Tso posted about all games at Walsh more likely? No clue.
My guess is you would have enough to open The Rock.
lol at linking people to the AEI. gave away the whole game right there
also, it was never "wait 2 weeks". anyone who said that never gave it any thought. the median incubation period for covid is 5 days with a range of 2-14. you'd never see any explosion of cases in 14 days, you'd need time for each infected persion to spread the disease, incubate, spread, incubate. that takes 4-6 weeks to see a real spike. i hope it doesn't happen. but i suspect if we hit 300,000 dead by the fall you'll still be talking about how the lockdowns were not worth it. so what's the number. 400k? 600k? a million? is a million dead not worth having games at walsh? what's the number?
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What is wrong with the article I cited?
What we need to do is look at the facts. Take precautions by sheltering the at-risk population. They should be advised to stay home and not interact with society much. For the vast majority of society that is at little risk of serious complications, it should be business as usual. The virus running through healthy people quickens our journey to herd immunity, which in the end protects the most vulnerable.
In the end, this should come down to each person's risk tolerance. If you're not comfortable going out, that's fine. Stay home. But don't force the rest of us, who aren't at high risk and who accept what little risk there is, to do the same. The country needs its young, healthy people out there working, spending and living life as normal.
answer the question. what is the number of dead before lives become more important than "working, spending" as you put it?
That’s a silly question. Are you as passionate about the 600,000 People that die EVERY year from heart disease that is very preventable?
I reject the premise of your question. It's not a binary trade-off or a numbers game. Every life is important, but so are the livelihoods of millions of Americans that have been severely damaged or even destroyed. Politicians are supposed to work for the common good. The common good would be requesting that the at-risk population lay low until we have a treatment or herd immunity while the low-risk population keeps working and keeps the country afloat economically.
I'm still wondering why you dismissed the article I posted. It was well written and seemed quite reasonable to me.
Oh stop. It took how many times to convict Gotti.
I am sorry that started this post because it digressed so far from my intention. I was hoping to propose a means whereby some fans could be reasonably safe, following CDC social distancing and PPE protocols, could go to games in the Pru Center. Obviously, some of us should not risk it regardless of the methods.
i disagree. lives are more important than businesses. incomes can be supplemented or replaced with government guarantees until treatments or vaccines are available which should come in Q1 2021. there is no price tag on mass death. the death toll is at 110,000 and rising. where does it end?
also your dumb article came from the American Enterprise Institute which is a Koch-funded political organization that is focused on advancing the agenda of american businesses, not medical science or public health. it is literally paid propaganda for corporate interests
To Off the Ship. Pleas keep this stuff off the Trove.
Does that extend to Life Off The Ship?
Dan I have an honest question and I am in no way intentionally needling you...why is LOTS basically not moderated whatsoever?
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Dan he's asking why can people ask legitimately challenhge his perfect worldviews and go unpunished since society is punishing anyone who dissents nowadays from the agenda.
I have never heard of the American Enterprise Institute until now. I did read an article from Scott Gottlieb earlier during this event that had "AEI" listed. It was about his plan for reopening. He is a very respected doctor, although he is a little bit too much of a fearmongerer for my taste when he's on TV.
There is a lot of paid propaganda on CNN, MSNBC, etc as well. You have to cut through it and get to the facts.
I fundamentally disagree with government supplementing or replacing incomes. That is a recipe for disaster and quite simply unrealistic.
There has been no mass death. A little over 100,000 deaths in a country of 327 million, most of them elderly and already not in good shape, is hardly mass death.
Conversations on LOTS are actually more tame than some on the trove or free board!
I fundamentally disagree with government supplementing or replacing incomes. That is a recipe for disaster and quite simply unrealistic.
So you are against unemployment, social security, ssi and ssdi got it
I am talking about for this specific instance. Putting 40M people on government assistance? No thanks, not for a nation already trillions in debt. Let them work, they are fully capable and at low risk of virus complications.
COVID-1984 as I call it has been used as an excuse to put millions of people on the government rolls, to control behavior, thought and other things. It's quite scary. It is a communists/socialists dream come true.
When it comes to those things you mentioned, I am against them if the person doesn't need them. Every dollar of government assistance should be means tested. We need entitlement reform in a major way.
