Ferguson

[Shuathelete]

Is anybody following the Ferguson, Missouri situation? I thought I might put up a topic. Im reading the book about Newark that was recommended by SnakeTom, and there seems to be a striking similarity between whats going in Ferguson and the Newark riots of 67.

Any thoughts?

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by Shuathelete:
Is anybody following the Ferguson, Missouri situation? I thought I might put up a topic. Im reading the book about Newark that was recommended by SnakeTom, and there seems to be a striking similarity between whats going in Ferguson and the Newark riots of 67.

Any thoughts?

First of all, that's a great book about Newark...glad you're enjoying it.

I'm not sure what to make of the situation yet, outside of a ton of over-reaction until all the facts are in, which my favorite rant: the media, is doing a great job in feuling the fire. It's disturbing on many levels and it seems like there is a lot of informaion missing and people rushing to judgement on both sides. If I had to guess the truth is somwhere in the middle. The kid probably got overly aggressive and tangled with the cop (who does that?) and I'm going to bet that he was approaching/rushing the cop when he was fired upon and that the cop thought he was in danger since the kid was pretty big and had already did some damage. Doesn't it seem odd that the officer had a pristine service record and would all of a sudden just want to drop a kid that was standing, not moving with his hands up? I also think once he started firing, the adrenaline kicked in and shot more rounds than he should have.

I think the big difference is in 67, the National Guard and Police were definitely more aggressive and initiated a ton of the fire. Disturbing to see looting and shots at police cars in Ferguson with no action being taken by law enforcement.

Clearly it was a bad idea to release that video in that it incited the rioting, but why the media also decided to give credibilty to the witness account of the same kid that was part of the robbery is beyond me.

Where is the media outrage for the murder of Brendan Tevlin or the young African-American girl who were both killed for their cell phones?

 

[shu09]

This is another instance of the media and race baiters like Sharpton, Jackson and that attorney Crump fanning the flames. The media and these people would love nothing more than to see more crazy rioting by people who don't seem to know any better.

The facts are not in on this yet. This day in age in this country, it seems like we rush to judgement before the facts are known. It's a shame. From what little I've read, I have been finding myself siding with the police on this one, although more facts coming in could change that. I think HALL85's post is highly accurate.

This post was edited on 8/18 6:49 PM by shu09

 

[Shuathelete]

Yes I thought one of the more ridiculous parts of 67 was that State Police were sometimes firing at the National guard and vis versa. But the racial tension, the spark, the police force being 95% white, the rioting being completely counterintuitive... made the obvious connection.

I was also going to mention how the media/social media is effecting this situation. I wouldnt be surprised if this happened again.

 

[SHUMike]

The reason the Police Force is 95% white is because they require a college degree. Should they lower their standards just to hire minorities? I feel that the should keep their college degree standard but maybe appeal to black colleges while recruiting officers.

The new information is starting to prove that the cop was justified in shooting Michael Brown.

 

[Shuathelete]

hey im not on either side of this, but i do think if a white man did the same thing he would be alive.

 

[SHUMike]

I don't. If a 6'6" 290 lb white man was charging the police, he would have been shot too.

Now they are saying when the cop approached him the second time he knew Big Mike had just robbed the store. Big Mike first wouldn't allow the cop to get out of the car than struggled for the cops gun. After the gun went off, Big Mike started to flee than turned around to bull rush the cop. At that point, the cop did his job.

6 shots isn't an issue. Cops are trained to shoot until the threat is gone. IMO it took 6 shots to stop the threat.

 

[HALL85]

I agree. Need to wait for facts but if that's how it played out, you likely get the same result black or white. Would the kid have reacted to a black cop differently? You would think that after a week if this cop had a racist bone in his body someone would have found a picture, a comment, interview etc. likely he's never fired his weapon on duty like most suburban cops. The sad thing is the rush to judgement that s being made by the instigators and media before facts come out.

This post was edited on 8/19 9:39 AM by HALL85

 

[Shuathelete]

Originally posted by SHUMike:

I don't. If a 6'6" 290 lb white man was charging the police, he would have been shot too.

Now they are saying when the cop approached him the second time he knew Big Mike had just robbed the store. Big Mike first wouldn't allow the cop to get out of the car than struggled for the cops gun. After the gun went off, Big Mike started to flee than turned around to bull rush the cop. At that point, the cop did his job.

6 shots isn't an issue. Cops are trained to shoot until the threat is gone. IMO it took 6 shots to stop the threat.

Youre talking as if you were there.

First off, Mike Brown was 6'4'' not 6'6''. Does that have to do with anything? Maybe not, but its in the same boat as skewing numbers such as "it was more than 2 bullets, but not much more than 2 bullets"

The cops didn't know of Mike's attempted robbery during this situation. He was being stopped for jaywalking (who gets stopped for that?) "the police officer stopped the victim because the victim was walking in the middle of the street" SERIOUSLY? And it was a bit odd how they threw in that newly found irrelevant footage after admitting it unrelated... just another piece that can skew the case.

Its not known whether he was actually charging the cops or if he was giving himself up. The lethal bullet hit in the top of his skull, clearly he was either down, going down, or not charging at all.

6 shots is an issue... dont we train our police force at a satisfactory level? Clearly that answer is no. In my opinion police forces arent well equipped to do anything but bust teenagers for weed, suburbanites for speeding, and according to the St Louis county police chief, arrest black people for, well, anything. Im just shocked they actually hit him, as past instances have shown cops can be the second coming of stormtroopers spraying bullets all over the place... oh wait the 6 bullets were all over the place? Nevermind.

I'm not necessarily siding with Mike Brown (an apparent criminal), but im far from siding with the police on this one. If you believe anything the police tell you than I got a bridge to sell you. If you don't want to get shot, dont wrestle with police. I agree (if that indeed happened). But I believe that once the suspect was no longer a threat our police force should be able to deal with it differently than nailing him 6 times twice in the head. Dont they learn other tactics?

The racism in that county is what leads me to believe the police dont just get a free pass here. What about the case in 09 where Henry Davis was badly beaten in a jail cell in Ferguson? Police said they were provoked yet they conveniently have no footage from the multiple cameras they have inside every cell. How about the St. Louis county police telling his men to "have a black day" and "lets make the jail cells more colorful"...

while this specific instance might very well be all on Mike Brown for his own death, I wanted more of an opinion on the obvious racial tension between the Ferguson people and the local/county officials.

 

[Shuathelete]

Originally posted by HALL85:
I agree. Need to wait for facts but if that's how it played out, you likely get the same result black or white. Would the kid have reacted to a black cop differently? You would think that after a week if this cop had a racist bone in his body someone would have found a picture, a comment, interview etc. likely he's never fired his weapon on duty like most suburban cops. The sad thing is the rush to judgement that s being made by the instigators and media before facts come out.

This post was edited on 8/19 9:39 AM by HALL85

I think if it was a white person they wouldnt fire 6 shots. that is my opinion.

I also dont think a white man gets stopped for "being in the middle of the street"

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by Shuathelete:

Originally posted by SHUMike:

I don't. If a 6'6" 290 lb white man was charging the police, he would have been shot too.

Now they are saying when the cop approached him the second time he knew Big Mike had just robbed the store. Big Mike first wouldn't allow the cop to get out of the car than struggled for the cops gun. After the gun went off, Big Mike started to flee than turned around to bull rush the cop. At that point, the cop did his job.

6 shots isn't an issue. Cops are trained to shoot until the threat is gone. IMO it took 6 shots to stop the threat.

Youre talking as if you were there.

First off, Mike Brown was 6'4'' not 6'6''. Does that have to do with anything? Maybe not, but its in the same boat as skewing numbers such as "it was more than 2 bullets, but not much more than 2 bullets"

The cops didn't know of Mike's attempted robbery during this situation. He was being stopped for jaywalking (who gets stopped for that?) "the police officer stopped the victim because the victim was walking in the middle of the street" SERIOUSLY? And it was a bit odd how they threw in that newly found irrelevant footage after admitting it unrelated... just another piece that can skew the case.

Its not known whether he was actually charging the cops or if he was giving himself up. The lethal bullet hit in the top of his skull, clearly he was either down, going down, or not charging at all.

6 shots is an issue... dont we train our police force at a satisfactory level? Clearly that answer is no. In my opinion police forces arent well equipped to do anything but bust teenagers for weed, suburbanites for speeding, and according to the St Louis county police chief, arrest black people for, well, anything. Im just shocked they actually hit him, as past instances have shown cops can be the second coming of stormtroopers spraying bullets all over the place... oh wait the 6 bullets were all over the place? Nevermind.

I'm not necessarily siding with Mike Brown (an apparent criminal), but im far from siding with the police on this one. If you believe anything the police tell you than I got a bridge to sell you. If you don't want to get shot, dont wrestle with police. I agree (if that indeed happened). But I believe that once the suspect was no longer a threat our police force should be able to deal with it differently than nailing him 6 times twice in the head. Dont they learn other tactics?

The racism in that county is what leads me to believe the police dont just get a free pass here. What about the case in 09 where Henry Davis was badly beaten in a jail cell in Ferguson? Police said they were provoked yet they conveniently have no footage from the multiple cameras they have inside every cell. How about the St. Louis county police telling his men to "have a black day" and "lets make the jail cells more colorful"...

while this specific instance might very well be all on Mike Brown for his own death, I wanted more of an opinion on the obvious racial tension between the Ferguson people and the local/county officials.

I'm not siding with anyone yet and I don't believe everythng the police tell me (in fact, it's pretty obvious, they blundered by releasing the tape of Brown robbing) , but you're making some assumptions like you've made up your mind. I agree that it seems odd to stop someone for "just walking in the street", but there was some reports that Brown was holding up traffic. We know very little about Brown or Officer Wilson, but like I said before, it also seems odd that an officer with no history of complaints and not a spec of data to support he was racist thus far, found it necessary to stop a kid for just walking and then shoot him 6+ times in broad daylight with no threat to his life. (I also believe four of those shots were in his arm...I don't shoot guns often nor have had to ward off an attack, so I don't know how many shots are appropriate....do you?).

Regarding racism, you'd be naive to think it doesn't still exist across all races in all walks of life...police, physicians, TSA workers, fast food handlers, etc.. Amazed that the media doesn't demonstrate any outrage over the "Knock-out" crimes where Blacks are specifically targeting Jews. If that's not racism and a hate crime, I don't know what is.

 

[Old_alum]

Originally posted by Shuathelete:
hey im not on either side of this, but i do think if a white man did the same thing he would be alive.

An interesting statement. What, exactly, is the 'same thing'? If your hypothesis has ever been effectuated, how would we know if it did not make the news?

The specifics of the case are tragic and I trust a full and thorough investigation is demanded.

The reaction of the community and the media might also be termed tragic on a different plane, a social plane. Why does that African-American community have so little trust in the judicial system that it will take up weapons against it?

What will it take to meld the psychology of so many urban African Americans into a belief in the American system and principles. Don't jump down my throat. I am as aware as any of the centuries-old prejudice, discrimination and torment with which African Americans have had to deal. My point is that the social changes we have witnessed in the last 50 years have been monumental. Is there some sociological or psychological distinction between African-Americans and, say, Pakistani/Indian-Americans, or Chinese-Americans, or Mexican-Americans. Virtually every racial minority seems to have made immense progress in economic and cultural terms (look at the CEOs of powerful banks and corporations who are racial-minorities). But why does it seem to be that the African-Americans react to criminal injustices to their own with rioting more often than other minority groups seem to?


This post was edited on 8/19 11:34 AM by Old_alum

 

[shu09]

I was recently in Atlantic City where I saw it all over the place and you also see it all the time in Newark. Dozens of people just walking through the street with no regard for traffic signals or other cars. They are a danger to themselves and drivers on the road.

 

[Section112]

I watched a Boston cop rip into a white girl a few weeks ago for having her car a few inches into the cross walk. There are laws and some cops actually enforce them.

Some cops are racists and some cops are not. The problem is the rush to judgment and the words the press and the race baiters use to get everyone started. More and more it looks like this officer was being attacked by a guy who just robbed a store. He ups his risk of getting injured when he robs a store and attacks a cop. His choices had a lot to do with the end result but no one wants to admit that.

 

[Shuathelete]

Originally posted by shu09:
I was recently in Atlantic City where I saw it all over the place and you also see it all the time in Newark. Dozens of people just walking through the street with no regard for traffic signals or other cars. They are a danger to themselves and drivers on the road.

I mean look at New York, you have anyone and everyone walking in traffic. It happens in Hoboken just the same. It happens anywhere there is a dense population, but in Newark the population is over 50% black so it seems exclusive to black people. Through history african americans are the ones moving in to densely populated areas and white folks moving out.

But I understand your feeling. I always got the feeling that they stray in the streets with intent to get hit and cash in on a settlement. I cant say its true, and I dont feel good about having that particular thought, but you see similar cases all the time in Russia and other eastern countries.

I've been a nuisance many times walking the streets of new york but i guarantee i never get apprehended for it

 

[Shuathelete]

Originally posted by Section112:

I watched a Boston cop rip into a white girl a few weeks ago for having her car a few inches into the cross walk. There are laws and some cops actually enforce them.

Some cops are racists and some cops are not. The problem is the rush to judgment and the words the press and the race baiters use to get everyone started. More and more it looks like this officer was being attacked by a guy who just robbed a store. He ups his risk of getting injured when he robs a store and attacks a cop. His choices had a lot to do with the end result but no one wants to admit that.

The cops had no idea he attempted to rob a store. and it was not an armed robbery. to include the attempted robbery is pointless. it also doesnt look more and more like the officer was being attacked. that part of the story is still in question.

while its clear there is racial profiling going on in that dept/county/state, i think this could be an overall example of police incompetence. I dont think anyone can truthfully admit his choices that led to the result of the situation. So far we know he was walking in the street and may or may not have gotten into an altercation with a cop (depending on if you believe witnesses or police) which resulted in his death. I think police should be held to a higher standard with a small margin of error. Thats what comes with the responsibility.

Old Alum: I definitely see your point. But is there any group larger and more oppressed historically in america than the african americans? personally i think its hard to compare them to any other group, but in no case should rioting ever be the answer. Its tough to actually put myself in their shoes, but rioting always seems counterproductive.

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by Shuathelete:

I've been a nuisance many times walking the streets of new york but i guarantee i never get apprehended for it

You keep making the same assumption like it was fact. Suppose he was blocking traffic which has been reported (not saying that's fact, but a possibility). We also don't know how he conducted himself when asked to move tot he sidewalk. Clearly, the video showed he is not above doing something physical.

I was picking my daughter up at the airport the other night and was parked on the curb at arrivals and an officer told me to move and either circle the airport or wait in the cell lot. Guess what, I did what he asked me to do. Part of the issue we have today as well is that there is very little respect for authority. Some of these kids (black or white) feel that it's OK to talk back to a cop or be physical.

 

[SHUMike]

The cop had 2 dealings with Big Mike. The first time he rolled up next to him and told him to walk on the sidewalk. Big Mike chose not to listen.

New evidence is saying that on the 2nd approach by the officer, he was aware of the strong arm robbery. Big Mike chose to fight the cop and go for his gun. Big Mike is dead because of his own actions.

I am all for peaceful protest, but this is a riot.

I have to give credit to all the protestors. They work all day and protest all night. That is some stamina.

Police will tell you that there is a range of about 21 feet. Anyone who enters that zone is capable of getting to a cop and either slashing him or fight him for his weapon in an instant. Studies show this fact. If that drug induced robber entered that zone and was steaming toward the officer that he already assaulted than the officer should be given a medal for bravery.
Next these clowns will be saying that the officer should have ran away.





This post was edited on 8/19 2:44 PM by SHUMike

 

[SHUMike]

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/169172-officer-wilsons-account-brown-taunted-bum-rushed/

 

[Shuathelete]

Originally posted by SHUMike:

The cop had 2 dealings with Big Mike. The first time he rolled up next to him and told him to walk on the sidewalk. Big Mike chose not to listen.

New evidence is saying that on the 2nd approach by the officer, he was aware of the strong arm robbery. Big Mike chose to fight the cop and go for his gun. Big Mike is dead because of his own actions.

I am all for peaceful protest, but this is a riot.

I have to give credit to all the protestors. They work all day and protest all night. That is some stamina.

Police will tell you that there is a range of about 21 feet. Anyone who enters that zone is capable of getting to a cop and either slashing him or fight him for his weapon in an instant. Studies show this fact. If that drug induced robber entered that zone and was steaming toward the officer that he already assaulted than the officer should be given a medal for bravery.
Next these clowns will be saying that the officer should have ran away.





This post was edited on 8/19 2:44 PM by SHUMike

Let me get this straight, youre adding drug induced because he had marijuana in his system (can stay up to 3 months)? Thats pretty much all i need to know about your opinions mike.

All of this evidence is bogus anyway. How many times does this force have to issue statements and backtrack on them or state something new or irrelevant. The officer didnt know about the robbery, but he did know the man was unarmed WITH HIS HANDS UP. I think a white person with his hands up in that same scenario lives. Thats how I perceive the Ferguson police. The Ferguson police records show its more likely they will find contraband on a white citizen than a black citizen, yet stops for black citizens far outnumber stops for white citizens. We are talking about a police force that beat up a black man in a jail cell, deleted the tapes, and them gave him two charges for GETTING BLOOD ON THEIR SHIRTS. I doubt youll hear of a similar situation with a white man.


Hall85, I agree sometimes its easier to just do what the authorities say, but authorities definitely abuse their powers at the expense of regular citizens.

Section, Im sure you did see a cop rip into a white girl over a minor traffic incident. Thats what cops do. They accost regular citizens and collect money. Thats all they care about (not all, but that is the main goal). Take a look at South Orange, one student has a party and theres 3 cop cars on the scene offering up citations. But you wont see them make sure the massive group of kids leaving travel safely. They make more of an effort tracking students whereabouts on the streets than they do looking out for thugs. I have a good friend who is in the police force in a north jersey county near morristown. He HATES his job because he gets shit for not busting regular citzens for frivolous violations. Its all about busting teens for unclear plates or dime bags of weed. Its 100% driven by money and not protection. Then when it comes to a serious situation, they shit bed.

That is why im teetering on the edge of this being a racial issue, and this being an issue of the current state of police competency. I think the initial stop was racially motivated, and the 6 bullet shower was a lack of execution... but i think the in the mind of that officer he wasnt thinking of the consequences of poor execution as much as he would have been with a white man (just an opinion)... if that makes sense.


I do agree with everyone that Brown may have brought some of this on himself, and hes certainly not an ordinary citizen.

 

[Shuathelete]

Originally posted by SHUMike:

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/169172-officer-wilsons-account-brown-taunted-bum-rushed/

If this is true then I 100% agree with the officer's decision to apprehend and then fire his weapon. But im not so sure if this is all true. It seems like they took different pieces of the story and then filled it in after to fit their narrative.

Wouldnt this all have been easily avoided if this came out right away? I mean, the police station was in the know as they did receive a strong arm robbery call, they did know of the officers pursuit of the possible suspect, and they had a clear eye witness account.

Why leak the robbery video and then claim it was only presented because "the people asked it to be." If everything was in order, why did it not come out that way?

 

[SHUMike]

The lack of information cant be blamed on the local police dept. Anytime a death is involved all information has to be disseminated by the county's prosecutor's office. Thee county is to blame for not getting the information out.

There may have been a delay in getting that information out because the cop involved was operated on for a shattered eye socket.


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/
This post was edited on 8/19 3:44 PM by SHUMike

 

[Shuathelete]

Its still a bit fishy. As of now. The police chief said they stopped Mike Brown because he was in the middle of the road, not because he was called in for the robbery. Im not saying they have to release the real info, but dont release false info. Everything must be radio'd in so i dont see why it was such a mystery. This could be a case of the police chief himself making the situation worse. i can only go by what is said by the parties involved, and it seems this police chief (now resigned) was not very fit for this kind of situation.

 

[jcalz88]

Originally posted by Shuathelete:

Originally posted by SHUMike:

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/169172-officer-wilsons-account-brown-taunted-bum-rushed/

If this is true then I 100% agree with the officer's decision to apprehend and then fire his weapon. But im not so sure if this is all true. It seems like they took different pieces of the story and then filled it in after to fit their narrative.

Wouldnt this all have been easily avoided if this came out right away? I mean, the police station was in the know as they did receive a strong arm robbery call, they did know of the officers pursuit of the possible suspect, and they had a clear eye witness account.

Why leak the robbery video and then claim it was only presented because "the people asked it to be." If everything was in order, why did it not come out that way?

I believe the state asked the local cops to hold back the robbery info... This is a complete clusterfk of a situation. I just cant wrap my head around destroying local business and homes where you live, makes no sense to me. Make the area even shittier whose going to want to do business their now? City will be even worse in the shitter i ten years because of this riot mark my words.

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by Shuathelete:

Originally posted by Section112:

I watched a Boston cop rip into a white girl a few weeks ago for having her car a few inches into the cross walk. There are laws and some cops actually enforce them.

Some cops are racists and some cops are not. The problem is the rush to judgment and the words the press and the race baiters use to get everyone started. More and more it looks like this officer was being attacked by a guy who just robbed a store. He ups his risk of getting injured when he robs a store and attacks a cop. His choices had a lot to do with the end result but no one wants to admit that.

The cops had no idea he attempted to rob a store. and it was not an armed robbery. to include the attempted robbery is pointless. it also doesnt look more and more like the officer was being attacked. that part of the story is still in question.

while its clear there is racial profiling going on in that dept/county/state, i think this could be an overall example of police incompetence. I dont think anyone can truthfully admit his choices that led to the result of the situation. So far we know he was walking in the street and may or may not have gotten into an altercation with a cop (depending on if you believe witnesses or police) which resulted in his death. I think police should be held to a higher standard with a small margin of error. Thats what comes with the responsibility.

Old Alum: I definitely see your point. But is there any group larger and more oppressed historically in america than the african americans? personally i think its hard to compare them to any other group, but in no case should rioting ever be the answer. Its tough to actually put myself in their shoes, but rioting always seems counterproductive.


Trying to be objective without all of the facts in just yet: A "robbery" is defined as using force in the commission of a theft, and the video showed that he had the propensity to use force, just a few minutes earlier. Maybe he's a mean kid, maybe it's drugs, but he did knock the poor storeowner out of the way and bully him before he left the store. Has any evidence been brought forward yet that the officer had used bad judgement in his career, had any complaints, was a racist, or had an anger issue? Just because the police force is 95% white, it's being assumed they are all racist and want to punish blacks. Aren't those sterotypes just as dumb and dangerous as lableling all black kids with baggy pants criminal thugs?

We don't know if Wilson knew about the robbery and his use of force, but if the kid used force to try to attack the officer and take his gun, than all bets are off. When you try to take a gun off a cop, you are putting your life in risk, and rightfully so. Was Wilson trained properly? Don't know, but his record seems to show that he's carried out his service up until this point without any issues. Do you just disregard that because it doesn't fit your story?

 

[Shuathelete]

Originally posted by HALL85:

Originally posted by Shuathelete:

Originally posted by Section112:

I watched a Boston cop rip into a white girl a few weeks ago for having her car a few inches into the cross walk. There are laws and some cops actually enforce them.

Some cops are racists and some cops are not. The problem is the rush to judgment and the words the press and the race baiters use to get everyone started. More and more it looks like this officer was being attacked by a guy who just robbed a store. He ups his risk of getting injured when he robs a store and attacks a cop. His choices had a lot to do with the end result but no one wants to admit that.

The cops had no idea he attempted to rob a store. and it was not an armed robbery. to include the attempted robbery is pointless. it also doesnt look more and more like the officer was being attacked. that part of the story is still in question.

while its clear there is racial profiling going on in that dept/county/state, i think this could be an overall example of police incompetence. I dont think anyone can truthfully admit his choices that led to the result of the situation. So far we know he was walking in the street and may or may not have gotten into an altercation with a cop (depending on if you believe witnesses or police) which resulted in his death. I think police should be held to a higher standard with a small margin of error. Thats what comes with the responsibility.

Old Alum: I definitely see your point. But is there any group larger and more oppressed historically in america than the african americans? personally i think its hard to compare them to any other group, but in no case should rioting ever be the answer. Its tough to actually put myself in their shoes, but rioting always seems counterproductive.


Trying to be objective without all of the facts in just yet: A "robbery" is defined as using force in the commission of a theft, and the video showed that he had the propensity to use force, just a few minutes earlier. Maybe he's a mean kid, maybe it's drugs, but he did knock the poor storeowner out of the way and bully him before he left the store. Has any evidence been brought forward yet that the officer had used bad judgement in his career, had any complaints, was a racist, or had an anger issue? Just because the police force is 95% white, it's being assumed they are all racist and want to punish blacks. Aren't those sterotypes just as dumb and dangerous as lableling all black kids with baggy pants criminal thugs?

We don't know if Wilson knew about the robbery and his use of force, but if the kid used force to try to attack the officer and take his gun, than all bets are off. When you try to take a gun off a cop, you are putting your life in risk, and rightfully so. Was Wilson trained properly? Don't know, but his record seems to show that he's carried out his service up until this point without any issues. Do you just disregard that because it doesn't fit your story?

Im not sure if Brown grabbed for the gun to use it or because the officer was grabbing it. I agree its best not to 1. put yourself in those situations, 2. fight an officer unprovoked.

No. Does his record show hes been in this kind of incident before? I am going off the culture of the police force and the fact they stop 10x as many black people despite finding more contraband on white people. And im not necessarily saying the specific officer is racist. he could have just been following orders to stop shady looking black men.


But i think my last comment clears some stuff up. I think the entire situation took a left turn when the police chief started spouting off random statements.

 

[SHUMike]

The store owner would have been justified in shooting Big Mike if he was armed too.

When Big Mike was walking towards him like he was going to beat him would have been his justification that he was afraid for his life.


http://fbshare.me/cPhO
This post was edited on 8/19 6:30 PM by SHUMike

 

[Shuathelete]

Originally posted by SHUMike:

The store owner would have been justified in shooting Big Mike if he was armed too.

When Big Mike was walking towards him like he was going to beat him would have been his justification that he was afraid for his life.


http://fbshare.me/cPhO
This post was edited on 8/19 6:30 PM by SHUMike

Haha he threw them a curveball

but i dont really see how one has to do with the other. hes not wrong, but not exactly relevant. both issues can be addressed.
This post was edited on 8/19 7:27 PM by Shuathelete

 

[shu09]

So Shuathlete is saying cops should not enforce the laws on the books? Last I checked, underage drinking and possession of marijuana were illegal. Cops have every right to issue citations and arrests to people who commit those offenses.

 

[Shuathelete]

Welp I guess I owe $200k for not signing up for the draft... damn

 

[Section112]

SHUathlete the Boston cop I saw was enforcing a law on the books intended to protect pedestrians. He was 100% in the right. Guess who the girl was? It was my daughter and I was following in the car behind her. I did not get out of my car. I wanted to see how the cop was gonna act and how my daughter was gonna act. My daughter was wrong and the cop was right. And by enforcing the law she now knows not to pull into a crosswalk and pedestrians are protected. That is in fact what cops are paid to do and I have no problem with it.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions with this case and the liberal press is doing too much protesting and not enough fact finding. And they are also not covering both sides of the story which is their job. That is what I find most disgusting about this and it is being encouraged by the current Administration who has not chosen to enforce laws on the books and continues to make statements before the facts are out and clear.
This post was edited on 8/20 9:06 AM by Section112

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by Section112:

There are still a lot of unanswered questions with this case and the liberal press is doing too much protesting and not enough fact finding. And they are also not covering both sides of the story which is their job. That is what I find most disgusting about this and it is being encouraged by the current Administration who has not chosen to enforce laws on the books and continues to make statements before the facts are out and clear.

This post was edited on 8/20 9:06 AM by Section112

+1000. Media coverage is a joke...where is the investigative reporting? A week later and you know absolutely nothing more about Brown or Officer Wilson, other than that one was black and one was white. Pathetic...this may have nothing to do with race but the press has played that angle from the start and continues to provide only that one point of view.

 

[Shuathelete]

Media is a joke on all sides. Believe it or not, I think the first report that actually dove deeper than the surface was john olivers team at hbo. that should speak volumes.

i was watching cnn last night and they just had a reporter running around trying to catch footage of anything about to happen. they want the riots to happen just as much as the rioters.

 

[SHUMike]

I'm not of a fan of our governor, but he said it best here:



http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/chris_christie_accuses_tv_anchors_of_making_a_spectacle_of_ferguson_shooting.html

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by SHUMike:
I'm not of a fan of our governor, but he said it best here:



http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/chris_christie_accuses_tv_anchors_of_making_a_spectacle_of_ferguson_shooting.html

Love him or hate him, he's the only politician that has the balls to say it like it is and make any kind of sense. Most of them too chicken-shit to call the press out for anything.

 

[Old_alum]

Originally posted by Shuathelete:
Old Alum: I definitely see your point. But is there any group larger and more oppressed historically in america than the african americans? personally i think its hard to compare them to any other group, but in no case should rioting ever be the answer. Its tough to actually put myself in their shoes, but rioting always seems counterproductive.

Thank-you for that. I agree that African Americans had been ''more oppressed historically in America''. But IMHO the operative word is ''historically''. Currently they are still disadvantaged, but IMHO not at all ''oppressed''.


Why do you ''think its hard to compare them to any other group''? The only historical fact that I see which makes them unique is that the plurality of their forebears were kidnapped and brought to these shores in chains, whereas almost all others (outside of many Chinese Americans, I suspect) immigrated voluntarily. How can one do sociological or economic analyses if one does not compare one group to another?


You continue: ''in no case should rioting ever be the answer. Its tough to actually put myself in their shoes, but rioting always seems counterproductive.'' Hence my question: why do African Americans have such an anarchistic view of American justice?

From the linked article :

Originally from Rasmussen:

When it comes to the mob violence that has occurred in Ferguson since the shooting, 25% of Americans think it has been primarily legitimate outrage over what happened. But 52% think it has been mostly criminals taking advantage of the situation. Another 23% are not sure. The Missouri State Police and the state National Guard have been called in to deal with the ongoing violence in Ferguson.


While most whites (54%) and other minority Americans (53%) believe the violence has been chiefly criminals taking advantage of the situation, just 35% of blacks agree. Slightly more (41%) think the mob violence has been primarily legitimate outrage, a view shared by 24% of whites and 21% of other minorities. Roughly a quarter of all three groups are undecided.

I am shocked that even one in thirty think that ''mob violence'' can EVER be ''legitimate outrage'', but then again--based purely on IQ--psychologists have opined that about 15% of the US population cannot be expected to give consistent responses! ;-(

My question remains: Sociologically and psychologically, why? Sociologically and psychologically, how can this be changed to more normative social behavior?

Where are the responsible African-American leaders?? On Martha's Vineyard? Why do they incite instead of calm?

Rasmussen

 

[HALL85]

I don't see this as some genetic thing, but more of a result of our history.

Living through the 60's at a very young age, but also reading and learning about that time, I think originally, most of the protesting from African-Americans was originally very peaceful and the only way they could rally to get attention to the integration movement. It seems to me that the violent demonstrtions only occurred after the police and those in power did some awful things that were seen on TV (which brought it into everyone's living room).

I think the difference is, back then, that next generation (white and black) saw this and it created the cause to change. A lot of us didn't learn the prejudices that our parents had, but rather see everyone equally. Some white and black chose differently.

If you look at the Millenial's of today, they are mostly color-blind when it comes to friendship and relationships and those that have some level of education or common sense reject the violent protesting that you see. I know my kids all have good friends that are African-American and they in no way support idiots like Sharpton and are embarrassed by what is going on. The behavior you see today are those from that last generation that initiated the rioting and the ignorant from this generation that follow them because they don't know any better.

 

[SHUMike]

We had more of a reason to start mob violence in 1989 after the Clockerty call than they do in Ferguson.

As time goes on, it is starting to look like the cop was justified in taking out Big Mike.

These rioters and reporters all made judgment before getting the facts.

 

[Old_alum]

Originally posted by HALL85:

I don't see this as some genetic thing, but more of a result of our history.

Living through the 60's at a very young age, but also reading and learning about that time, I think originally, most of the protesting from African-Americans was originally very peaceful and the only way they could rally to get attention to the integration movement. It seems to me that the violent demonstrtions only occurred after the police and those in power did some awful things that were seen on TV (which brought it into everyone's living room).

I think the difference is, back then, that next generation (white and black) saw this and it created the cause to change. A lot of us didn't learn the prejudices that our parents had, but rather see everyone equally. Some white and black chose differently.

If you look at the Millenial's of today, they are mostly color-blind when it comes to friendship and relationships and those that have some level of education or common sense reject the violent protesting that you see. I know my kids all have good friends that are African-American and they in no way support idiots like Sharpton and are embarrassed by what is going on. The behavior you see today are those from that last generation that initiated the rioting and the ignorant from this generation that follow them because they don't know any better.

First, I do not infer nor did I see anyone implying that the possible causes might be genetic.

I was at SHU during the 1960s. If by "most of the protesting" you mean MLK and his peaceful movement, then I would agree with the 'most' characterization.

I would not agree that "the violent demonstrtions (sic) only occurred after the police and those in power did some awful things that were seen on TV (which brought it into everyone's living room)", unless you are speaking of the "awful" things perpetrated in Mississippi and to a lesser extent in Arkansas, etc. But I am aware of no specific 'awful things' done by 'police and those in power' in Newark to precipitate the riots. I do know from personal experience valiant firefighters and policemen who were murdered for no cause while they were fighting the fires. Tragic! Unwarranted. But less bewildering then, than now.

I generally agree with the generational changes you describe. Mores and conditions were quantumly worse for African-Americans then than now.

I also acknowledge that many if not most African Americans are troubled both by the shooting AND the riots. As we all should be.

I have no information to substantiate that it was the 'last generation that initiated the rioting '. I cannot opine on that.

My whole point is that such violent anarchy seems to be more significantly present (if not isolated) inside the African-American community. I wonder what sociological and psychological cures there are for this. Virtually every minority has at one time or another been discriminated against, but IMHO there seems to be significant evidence that other racial groups seem to have had more success working their way into middle-class --- no, I have no links or stats.

IMHO the bottom line is that respect for individual responsibility, personal discipline and the American way of life must be ingrained during the first six years of a child's life if it is not to be a daunting transition later. Children having children is a bad start.

I am not sure if the current education and political systems are designed to support or to prohibit such principles.

Where are the adult leaders in the community and in government who will consistently start their messages from a position of reassurance of diligent trust in the American system?

 

[HALL85]

OA, just to clarify, I was referring to the early actions by police in Mississippi, Alabama and Texas that came into full view on TV. I was very young at the time, but those images from the South seemed like an incindiary point that precipitated the riots up North and elsewhere. Yes there were racist policemen in Newark, but the vast majority were as you spoke. They were put into a very difficult situation that they were not prepared.

I can't answer the violence question, but I think it's fair to say that the African-American struggle has been far more difficult than some of the other minorities. I do think though that the actions some of our leaders have taken over the years have stifled that potential success because so many of these so-called "social programs" have created artificial crutches. Man needs to be challenged and have a purpose to succeed. Unfairly punishing him or giving him things without having to work for them creates the welfare state that you see today in many of these communities.

I was having a discussion about Ferguson with two of my daughters friends today who are African-American and they don't feel "targeted" by police. They also can't relate to what is going on there. They also thought Sharpton is a clown. They also come from middle-class, college eductated parents.