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Ferguson

Originally posted by HALL85:

OA, just to clarify, I was referring to the early actions by police in Mississippi, Alabama and Texas that came into full view on TV. I was very young at the time, but those images from the South seemed like an incindiary point that precipitated the riots up North and elsewhere. Yes there were racist policemen in Newark, but the vast majority were as you spoke. They were put into a very difficult situation that they were not prepared.

I can't answer the violence question, but I think it's fair to say that the African-American struggle has been far more difficult than some of the other minorities. I do think though that the actions some of our leaders have taken over the years have stifled that potential success because so many of these so-called "social programs" have created artificial crutches. Man needs to be challenged and have a purpose to succeed. Unfairly punishing him or giving him things without having to work for them creates the welfare state that you see today in many of these communities.

I was having a discussion about Ferguson with two of my daughters friends today who are African-American and they don't feel "targeted" by police. They also can't relate to what is going on there. They also thought Sharpton is a clown. They also come from middle-class, college eductated parents.
I am not sure which incidents were in Texas and Alabama, but I do not remember any graphic videos, just the news reports and an occasional photograph, whereas videos in those days was far less ubiquitous. It wasn't until the mid-1970s that Warner Wolfe made a name for himself saying: ''Let's go to the video tape''. And Cable and ESPN only proliferated in the 1980s.

That said, whatever the facts of the happenings in Fergusson demand justice---for Brown and/or Wilson. IMHO the disturbing facets are the ''rush to judgment'' without the facts by the media and by the general populace (and some on this board)---but those are typical I fear. What is IMHO more dismaying and unjustifiable are the political leaders inciting mistrust in the system which led to the bewildering riots.

I do believe the African-American struggles are more numerous, but I doubt whether a Mexican-American in south Texas or a Puerto Rican-American in New York, or even an Indian-American or Chinese-American would have received much different treatment from white Americans at any stage of the integration process --- but each minority group seems to react differently than the African Americans.

IMHO it is the core family unit which is at the heart of almost every individual's ethics/culture, and this should be addressed in this regard, as well.
 
OA, appreciate the response. Some final points:
* If you haven't seen it, watch the CNN series on the 60's. I was very young at the time, but seeing these news clips, I can understand what created the movement and violet backlash. It's both disturbing and embarrassing to see some of the criminal acts and behavior of those in influence in the south.
* I agree that the media (see all of my rants about that) and politicians have done more to incite the rioting and response. Shameful.
* Everyone has their opinion, but no race has faced the type of discrimination that African-Americans have faced. Every race of immigrants has had their challenges, but they were the only one that came here as slaves...what other race came to this country and had to rise from that situation?
* Also agree that the family unit has a lot to do with how children learn their value set. There is the old nature vs. nurture argument. Personally, race aside, I believe the less connected we become as families, there are ramifications.
 
Originally posted by Shuathelete:



No. Does his record show hes been in this kind of incident before? I am going off the culture of the police force and the fact they stop 10x as many black people despite finding more contraband on white people. And im not necessarily saying the specific officer is racist. he could have just been following orders to stop shady looking black men.
Do you have any factual information to support any of this? Of course not.

The prison populations are highly skewed black:white. Is that the "culture" of law enforcement, too? Or is it the judiciary system, the judges are racist? When does the blame point to the inner city culture?
 
Agree with donnie also. A big reason why jails are filled with more blacks than whites is that blacks commit more crime than whites. This is a statistical fact and not racial in any way. There are bad black people and bad white people, just a large portion of the prison population happens to be black.

The inner city culture does need to be held to account but our society keeps making excuses for it.
 
Originally posted by shu09:
Agree with donnie also. A big reason why jails are filled with more blacks than whites is that blacks commit more crime than whites. This is a statistical fact and not racial in any way. There are bad black people and bad white people, just a large portion of the prison population happens to be black.

The inner city culture does need to be held to account but our society keeps making excuses for it.

Agree with this. You can blame profiling techniques and the cops all you want, but there is a completely disproportionate number of Dustin Friedland (Short Hills car jacking) and Devin Tevlin (Livingston college student) murders committed by African-Americans. Black on white or black on black crime is what skews the numbers in prison.
 
Originally posted by shu09:
The inner city culture does need to be held to account but our society keeps making excuses for it.
The only word I might argue is ''account''. I truly believe that the schools and community leaders must teach the children who become parents HOW to be good parents and the implications thereof. If you have a few minutes listen to Dr. Ben Carson on YouTube. His mother was one of 24 kids, married at age 13 and had two sons before she learned her husband was a bigamist. While cleaning the homes of 'rich people' she observed that their kids watched little TV and read a lot of books. She limited her sons to 3 hours of TV per week and required three book reports per week to be submitted to her. She marked each with a red pen, though Ben learned only as an adult that she could not read.

Ben and his younger brother were the 'dummies' of their school (in Ben's 5th grade year). Then he started reading and became the brightest in class; then Yale; then med school; then head of neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins. How did this happen? Money? Special classes? Special privileges? No. His teenage mother merely demanded discipline from her preteen sons, for their own welfare.

This post was edited on 8/27 4:11 PM by Old_alum

BookTV
 
A CNN op-ed on why 6 bullets.

A lot of good points.

Police are trained to aim center mass, yet none of 6 wounds was in torso.

Could this mean that Brown's arms and head were blocking his torso?

CNN
 
If Wilson had sustained a broken orbital bone it is also likely his vision was impaired. Same thing with a concussion.
 
Shuathelete

Running towards a cop to surrender,one of the funniest and dumb things I have ever read!
 
Michael Brown is dead because of his own actions. He had another option, he could have complied to the Officers demands.
 
If anything, most of the press should be shot for the way they are reporting the grand jury decision. They are more interested in being in the riot than reporting on the testimony, indictment process and laws in Missouri and doing real research. Really pathetic as we watched CNN reporters trying to make good theatre choaking on tear gas last night.

There is a lot of wrong in today's world, but making Michael Brown the symbol for it was wrong from the beginning. Here's a kid that an hour before had robbed a store, attacked the store owner and then reached in a police cruiser and punched a cop repeatedly and tried to grab his gun. I don't know, but I think when you do that to a cop all bets are off whether you're black or white. The poor guy that Brown robbed and pushed also had his store looted and burned to the ground last night. How about justice for someone that was a responsible business owner and adding value to society?
 
It saddens me to see people rally around an issue (police brutality/race relations), but using a horrible example (Ferguson) to do so. We definitely have problems in this country in a number of areas crime, race and police/public relations when we look at the big picture. This case is being propped up as THE example and as facts come out, it has created more of a divide and rhetoric for all the wrong reasons. It appears that Wilson acted properly and the situation had more to do with the crime and actions Brown took than anything to do with race.

CNN has been running a series on the 60's and since I was so young I don't remember the speeches that Kennedy and Johnson made at the time, but as I watch the series now that chronicals their actions, leadership and words, it is no surprise to see how they both had an impact on changing the values of the next generation and how important the President is in shaping the feelings of the country. With that, I ask two question.

Do you feel race relations are better, worse or the same since Obama was elected?
How would you rate Obama's leadership and actions in the area of improving race relations?
 
Originally posted by HALL85:

Do you feel race relations are better, worse or the same since Obama was elected?
How would you rate Obama's leadership and actions in the area of improving race relations?
1. About the same.
2. Horrible.
 
None of us know if the police officer is telling the truth or not . Every time something like this happens people with different agenda's jump up
in one direction or the other to make a political issue out of something that
really isn't. Same thing with the Zimmerman trial. The right tried to make him a
hero & the left a villain. But in reality it was a simple case of did he
commit a murder or didn't he. Something that has to be decided by proofs in
court not by political rallys. As an attorney I know things are not always as
they seem at first. I don't know who is guilty here be it the police or Michael
Brown and I'm not going to pretend that I do.

In the Zimmerman case my gut feeling is that he was guilty but he had to be acquitted for lack of evidence beyond a reasonable
doubt. No question Zimerman was a bad guy but that didn't mean he was guilty in
this case. Michael Brown apparently was a bad kid also but that doesn'r mean the
officer should have shot him either. It's sad that people try to use terrible situations like these to push a specific agenda when for the most part they have no idea what the true facts were nor do they care.

Tom K
 
It's a tragedy when any 18 year old kid is killed. But, please America. let's not turn this kid into some kind of civil rights martyr, because that he is not.
 
Tom, agree about pushing agendas in these situations. Our legal process isn't perfect but it's been sad to see so many just totally disregard it and ignore how it works because the outcome wasn't what they wanted. The press is the worst, but where is the political leadership?
 
Originally posted by SnakeTom:


None of us know if the police officer is telling the truth or not . Every time something like this happens people with different agenda's jump up
in one direction or the other to make a political issue out of something that
really isn't. Same thing with the Zimmerman trial. The right tried to make him a
hero & the left a villain. But in reality it was a simple case of did he
commit a murder or didn't he. Something that has to be decided by proofs in
court not by political rallys. As an attorney I know things are not always as
they seem at first. I don't know who is guilty here be it the police or Michael
Brown and I'm not going to pretend that I do.

In the Zimmerman case my gut feeling is that he was guilty but he had to be acquitted for lack of evidence beyond a reasonable
doubt. No question Zimerman was a bad guy but that didn't mean he was guilty in
this case. Michael Brown apparently was a bad kid also but that doesn'r mean the
officer should have shot him either. It's sad that people try to use terrible situations like these to push a specific agenda when for the most part they have no idea what the true facts were nor do they care.

Tom K
Sounded like the physical evidence matched Wilson's statements and those witnesses who corroborated Wilson, It wasn't just a case of he said she said.
 
10411172_1560781190823922_675050222092632327_n.jpg
 
The fact that Wilson had never fired his gun since he's been on the police force and didn't have any complaints against him I guess few media outlets cared to report. Doesn't seem to fit the profile of a racist killer of innocents.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:
The fact that Wilson had never fired his gun since he's been on the police force and didn't have any complaints against him I guess few media outlets cared to report. Doesn't seem to fit the profile of a racist killer of innocents.
I don't want to defend Brown. It was clear from what I read that he was guilty.

The only thing that doesn't sit right for me is that Wilson did not have a way to incapacitate Brown without killing him.
You reach for an officers gun, they are going to kill you. If he died there I would feel better about it... but Wilson chased him... knowing that Brown was the kind of guy who would fight a police officer already, knowing that he felt like he was a 5 year old fighting Hulk Hogan, he got out of his car and chased him and did not wait for backup.

I understand adrenaline might not make you think straight, but he had to know that if he actually caught up to Brown... he was going to have to kill him.
 
Wilson is trained to be a cop...to protect and serve, so to speak. When he got out of the car, according to the grand jury reports, he yelled for Brown to stop and get on the ground. At that point Wilson had control of the gun (which he didn't when they were wrestling with it). If Brown, as several witnesses corroberated turned and came charging back at Wilson, what was he supposed to do? He not only didn't comply with the order, but he came back at Wilson.

Are you suggesting that he was supposed to sit in his car until back up came while Brown got away? What about the threat to the public. Brown had already robbed and choked a store owner minutes before. It's kind of scary to think a police officer has to be that cautious and potentially allow a criminal in a position to hurt more civilians.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:

When he got out of the car, according to the grand jury reports, he yelled for Brown to stop and get on the ground. At that point Wilson had control of the gun (which he didn't when they were wrestling with it). If Brown, as several witnesses corroberated turned and came charging back at Wilson, what was he supposed to do? He not only didn't comply with the order, but he came back at Wilson.

Are you suggesting that he was supposed to sit in his car until back up came while Brown got away? What about the threat to the public. Brown had already robbed and choked a store owner minutes before. It's kind of scary to think a police officer has to be that cautious and potentially allow a criminal in a position to hurt more civilians.
Do we know that Wilson was yelling for him to stop and get on the ground by anyone other than Wilson?
I haven't seen that. Some witnesses said he fired as he was chasing.

I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened.

All I am saying is that he got out of his car knowing that he was going to kill Brown. I feel no sympathy for Brown, but I would hope that a police officer would be able to incapacitate someone without killing them.
 
Originally posted by Merge:

Originally posted by HALL85:

When he got out of the car, according to the grand jury reports, he yelled for Brown to stop and get on the ground. At that point Wilson had control of the gun (which he didn't when they were wrestling with it). If Brown, as several witnesses corroberated turned and came charging back at Wilson, what was he supposed to do? He not only didn't comply with the order, but he came back at Wilson.

Are you suggesting that he was supposed to sit in his car until back up came while Brown got away? What about the threat to the public. Brown had already robbed and choked a store owner minutes before. It's kind of scary to think a police officer has to be that cautious and potentially allow a criminal in a position to hurt more civilians.
Do we know that Wilson was yelling for him to stop and get on the ground by anyone other than Wilson?
I haven't seen that. Some witnesses said he fired as he was chasing.

I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened.

All I am saying is that he got out of his car knowing that he was going to kill Brown. I feel no sympathy for Brown, but I would hope that a police officer would be able to incapacitate someone without killing them.
How do you know what he thought he was going to do when he got out of the car? You have no idea what it's like to be put in that position - police officers are not taught shoot to incapacitate or slow down a criminal if they are in danger. They are taught to protect themselves if they believe their life is in danger. People should know that if they attack and rush an officer bad things will happen. Simple as that and I'm fine with that. You will not get people to become police officers if they cannot protect themselves.
 
Originally posted by Merge:


Do we know that Wilson was yelling for him to stop and get on the ground by anyone other than Wilson?
I haven't seen that. Some witnesses said he fired as he was chasing.

I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened.

All I am saying is that he got out of his car knowing that he was going to kill Brown. I feel no sympathy for Brown, but I would hope that a police officer would be able to incapacitate someone without killing them.
Merge, like you said, we will likely never know the whole story, so how can you be so sure that he got out knowing he was going to kill Brown? This is where we need to trust the process and the grand jury findings. It's somewhat unrelated, but I used to have a neighbor who was in the West Caldwell police department and he retired without ever having fired his weapon. This whole episode happened in about 90 seconds and with as much training as a police officer gets, if you're put into a situation like this for the first time, I doubt anyone acts like a robot and does exactly what they are trained to do.

The grand jury was satisfied with the evidence to not prosecute. I get the sense that there were a number of people who corroberated his version and that there were so many inconsistencies in the other accounts (with Wilson's and each others).

On another note, did anyone notice that Kenny Britt was one of five St. Louis Rams protesting before the game yesterday?? Ironic much?? So Kenny, how many times have you been arrested now...I think ten at last count...speeding, smoking weed, drunk driving, disorderly conduct. You add so much credibility to the protest.
This post was edited on 12/1 10:24 AM by HALL85
 
Originally posted by Section112:

This is an interesting account of Witness 10 who had to be deemed credible by the grand jury. It also backs up Officer Wilson's account.
Thanks 112. Goes to show that real investigative reporting is still alive, although just barely.

To me this is as much as a continued indictment on the media that testimony like this is ignored since it a) it's not popular doesn't support the frenzy or b) they are just too damn lazy or self-absorbed to do any work.

It also galls me that our political leaders have been virtually silent on this matter, but look at D.C. and this is just another form of dysfunction.
 
Originally posted by Section112:

This is an interesting account of Witness 10 who had to be deemed credible by the grand jury. It also backs up Officer Wilson's account.
I have no issue with how the court ruled the case.
All I am saying is... what was Wilson planning on doing if he caught up to Hulk Hogan?
 
Originally posted by Merge:


Originally posted by Section112:

This is an interesting account of Witness 10 who had to be deemed credible by the grand jury. It also backs up Officer Wilson's account.
I have no issue with how the court ruled the case.
All I am saying is... what was Wilson planning on doing if he caught up to Hulk Hogan?
I don't know...maybe arrest him????
 
Originally posted by Merge:


Originally posted by Section112:

This is an interesting account of Witness 10 who had to be deemed credible by the grand jury. It also backs up Officer Wilson's account.
I have no issue with how the court ruled the case.
All I am saying is... what was Wilson planning on doing if he caught up to Hulk Hogan?
You could also say if Mike Brown stops and gets on the ground with his hands up (really with his hands up) maybe he is still alive and you and I would have never heard a word about this case right?

It is sad that it has taken this long for the lame stream media to start reporting both sides of the story.
 
"Is it a gun, is it a knife, is it a wallet, this is your life"...that is a helluva position for a man to be in, trying to do his job while fearful that the other guy may shoot him. Impossible for us to imagine. But I wish I had a buck for every kid not beaten or mistreated by a cop cause he doesn't want to have to deal with Sharpton and those guys. Cops are humans, and lots are not great guys and lots of good guys make tragic decisions, just like lots of every group are not great guys. I think the post shooting handling of the case sucked and totally understand being pissed off about it, or mad to a rage, specially with Trevan in memory. I can't imagine burning down a building in response, but I can't imagine how they feel any more than I can imagine how a cop feels looking at a guy reaching for something.

Process matters, and here I think the process was not followed as normal, and it will make the case one talked about for a long time.
 
Who would have thought Charles Barkley would be the voice of reason? I wish a politician would have the balls to do this and lead the country to a positive dialogue.

Unfortunately with the announcement today by the Grand Jury in NYC, NOT to indict the officer in the Eric Garner case....look for another round of riots.
This post was edited on 12/3 3:51 PM by HALL85

Barkley CNN Interview
 
The Garner ruling is a joke. Another scumbag cop walks free. To paraphrase Nina Simone, Staten Island, goddam.
 
The Police were sent to Garner's neighborhood to clean up quality of life issues. This technique was found effective years ago in New York when Police cracked down on the "Squeegee Guys". By cleaning up small quality of life issues, New York showed a great improvement in BIG crimes such as murder and drug sales.

As small of a crime that selling loose cigarettes may sound, Police Officers told Garner that he was under arrest. At this point Garner told the Police that he wasn't going to be arrested. After briefly trying to reason with him, the police had to take action.

First of all, the police walking away isn't an option.
Second, race never entered my mind.



When Garner was saying that he couldn't breathe he still never gave up his hands to be handcuffed. He was still resisting.

At no time did the Cops punch, kick, pepper spray, use a baton, stun gun or shoot Garner. They used the lowest means of force that could be used.

In my opinion a somewhat healthy person would have been fine after being arrested in the same manner. A wrestler gets maneuvered in the neck area a lot worse multiple times a day than Garner was.

Garner may have died the next time he climbed a set of stairs.

Bringing down a man Garner's size and strength from the front wasn't an option. Doing so would expose the office's weapon and himself to great harm.

Can someone out there tell me what the best technique would be to arrest a man his size that didn't want to be arrested?

MP
 
The short version is that a 23 person Grand Jury saw and heard the evidence and didn't feel it meet the test to take it.
 
Originally posted by SHUMike:




The Police were sent to Garner's neighborhood to clean up quality of life issues. This technique was found effective years ago in New York when Police cracked down on the "Squeegee Guys". By cleaning up small quality of life issues, New York showed a great improvement in BIG crimes such as murder and drug sales.

As small of a crime that selling loose cigarettes may sound, Police Officers told Garner that he was under arrest. At this point Garner told the Police that he wasn't going to be arrested. After briefly trying to reason with him, the police had to take action.

First of all, the police walking away isn't an option.
Second, race never entered my mind.



When Garner was saying that he couldn't breathe he still never gave up his hands to be handcuffed. He was still resisting.

At no time did the Cops punch, kick, pepper spray, use a baton, stun gun or shoot Garner. They used the lowest means of force that could be used.

In my opinion a somewhat healthy person would have been fine after being arrested in the same manner. A wrestler gets maneuvered in the neck area a lot worse multiple times a day than Garner was.

Garner may have died the next time he climbed a set of stairs.

Bringing down a man Garner's size and strength from the front wasn't an option. Doing so would expose the office's weapon and himself to great harm.

Can someone out there tell me what the best technique would be to arrest a man his size that didn't want to be arrested?

MP
Yeah, a guy died, no big deal. He was selling cigarettes that may have been hot and he just deserved what he got.
 
Originally posted by Seton75:

Yeah, a guy died, no big deal. He was selling cigarettes that may have been hot and he just deserved what he got.
Going to have to agree with Seton75, which is rare on a social issue. That film is pretty disturbing. If the cop broke protocol, and the coroner ruled it a homicide, while it's all on "film," how does that not deserve to be heard before a judge and jury? That video is pretty disturbing.
 
Originally posted by donnie_baseball:

Going to have to agree with Seton75, which is rare on a social issue. That film is pretty disturbing. If the cop broke protocol, and the coroner ruled it a homicide, while it's all on "film," how does that not deserve to be heard before a judge and jury? That video is pretty disturbing.
+1.

Can't see how anyone can watch that and think that it was handled well.

I understand that being a cop is a very difficult job, but there needs to be some kind of accountability.
 
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