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Georgetown wears 'I Can't Breathe' T-shirts

Why wasn't a taser used?

Why so many cops involved. It is like they thought a hardened dangerous criminal was at bay who could elude than and not an obese guy selling hot cigarettes. (I wonder how much graft is accepted from the mafia and other criminal groups to put that stuff on the street?)

Why does a co-worker of mine who has taught martial arts for about 20 years tell me the excuse that he learned that hold in his martial arts training say that is total BWS?
 
Originally posted by Seton75:
Why wasn't a taser used?

Why so many cops involved. It is like they thought a hardened dangerous criminal was at bay who could elude than and not an obese guy selling hot cigarettes. (I wonder how much graft is accepted from the mafia and other criminal groups to put that stuff on the street?)

Why does a co-worker of mine who has taught martial arts for about 20 years tell me the excuse that he learned that hold in his martial arts training say that is total BWS?
I actually think we agree on this and supports why I said this was not the action of one cop which is where the media attention is being focused. How do five policemen individually come to the same conclusion to act and take Garner at that moment and they all knew where it position themselves? Who gave the order to arrest him and to take him down when he resisted? Was it the cop that put him in the headlock or was it someone else? Who was in charge?

If the headlock wasn't the cause of death, why focus only on that one officer?
 
IMO, the headlock WAS the cause of death. He was on the street alive and well, but when the cop put him in a chokehold, this unstabilized his body and killed him. Yes, he was fat and out of shape and unhealthy, but he had been that way all day, all month, probably for years. The one cop put him in a choke hold. And he, according to my friend, misrepresented what is commonly taught in martial arts classes to justify his actions. A ridiculous overkill or resources was put on this public nuisance who was clearly not a dangerous criminal regardless of whether he resisted arrest or not. We do not agree at all.

Civilians make mistakes, and so do cops. This guy f'ed up and so did the grand jury and prosecutor. A co-worker (not a liberal guy) who lives close to where this happened is up in arms against the decision and says that is common among the people he knows in the area, as they realize it embarrasses the whole island and think it was a putrid decision.
 
If this case had gone to trial, I think a lot of time would have been spent clarifying whether a headlock or a chokehold was used to bring down Garner. The chokehold is not allowed but a head lock would be. This issue would turn on expert testimony.

Having watched the video, it would be my (non expert) opinion this was a chokehold. It would take strong testimony to convince me otherwise. The coroner's report also mentions neck compression as a contributing cause of death which tends to support the chokehold theory, at least as I see it.

Officer Panteleo was brought before the Grand Jury because he is the one who brought down Garner. The grand jury has no control over whether or not all of the officers or just him should be charged but I do think it is fair to ask who was in overall command. It seems pretty clear that Garner was in no position to resist once he was on the ground. The overall leader could have assessed the situation and had the rest of the officers back off even a little. Perhaps the outcome would have been different.
 
Originally posted by Seton75:

IMO, the headlock WAS the cause of death. He was on the street alive and well, but when the cop put him in a chokehold, this unstabilized his body and killed him. Yes, he was fat and out of shape and unhealthy, but he had been that way all day, all month, probably for years. The one cop put him in a choke hold. And he, according to my friend, misrepresented what is commonly taught in martial arts classes to justify his actions. A ridiculous overkill or resources was put on this public nuisance who was clearly not a dangerous criminal regardless of whether he resisted arrest or not. We do not agree at all.

Civilians make mistakes, and so do cops. This guy f'ed up and so did the grand jury and prosecutor. A co-worker (not a liberal guy) who lives close to where this happened is up in arms against the decision and says that is common among the people he knows in the area, as they realize it embarrasses the whole island and think it was a putrid decision.
Although I've spent over 30 years in healtcare, I'm not a Medical Examiner and according to the ME, the headlock was not the cause of death. So this is not something that is a matter of opinion, unless you're calling the ME f'd up along with the prosecuter and grand jury.

I guess I do see it differently then. A complaint was called in by a civilian/business owner...several cops responded...at some point it was deemed that Garner was resisting arrest and needed to be taken in. Someone made that call. Was it the cop who put Garner in the headlock? Was it someone else? Who made the call to put a "ridiculous overkill or resources" into play???

Were the police culpable?? I'm not saying they weren't or didn't f'up. The tape sure looks like they did. I'm just saying based on the ME report, to single out one cop seems like it runs contrary to facts. And because of that it seems that you either have to charge all of the cops and/or the one that made the call. Don't facts matter anymore? Seems like they didn't either in the Brown case when it came to media reporting and the rioters.
 
On August 1st the NYC ME said the death was caused by

"compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police,"

Also, the question of whether a chokehold or a headlock was used has not been definitively answered. There appear to be differing opinions.

Of course facts matter. It is your opinion that it should be "either have to charge all of the cops and/or the one that made the call." The prosecutor had a different opinion. I am not sure what the law says in a case like this. If it is up to the discretion of the prosecutor, than the facts don't carry the day, his interpretation of the facts do.



http://time.com/3071288/eric-garner-chokehold-death-nypd-medical-examiner/
 
What about justifiable homicide?Anyone think cops go on the job with anything other than going home in one piece at the end of their shift in one piece?
 
I like the new shirts a police officer came out with that said, Follow the Law and Breathe Easy. A great counterpoint.
 
Of course people should follow the law. If they did, we wouldn't need cops. And of course, they should cooperate with the cops. But that has absolutely nothing to do with whether the cop acted properly. Cause if I am an asshole or a great guy, the cop should be fair.

I get stopped in Middletown doing 50 in a 35. My son with a beard gets stopped. A Black kid with dreads gets stopped. Do we really thing we all get treat similarly? And the idea that I will get off if I have a PBA sticker in my car is outrageous, as if that has anything to do with my guilt of innocence. But that is an accepted part of law enforcement's relationship with the public.

I see the prosecutors in Ferguson already admit some testimony was a lie, a white women who just happened to testify that she saw things exactly how the police said they did. She wasn't really there, but no big deal.

This is issue is not some trivial thing. This is a huge issue at the core of our society.
 
Is it an issue? YES. Is it a huge issue? NO

I work in the Lehigh Valley and although only 65 miles from NYC this is a non-issue. No protests, no violence, not even on the radar of the community, which BTW, Allentown is 40% Hispanic. Also there are high crime areas.
 
I am not talking about Ferguson or Staten island specifically. I am talking of a large percentage of us getting different treatment from cops as the norm. No protests in Middletown either. But I wonder who gets the ticket, me or the kid in dress.,
 
Originally posted by Seton75:
I am not talking about Ferguson or Staten island specifically. I am talking of a large percentage of us getting different treatment from cops as the norm. No protests in Middletown either. But I wonder who gets the ticket, me or the kid in dress.,
I was speaking of areas with an urban center and a high minority percentage which I would not put Middletown in that category.

I live in Hunterdon County and scanning the Public Safety section in the news every week it's predominantly arrests or tickets of residents. They do list pretty much everything and there are some outside stops with what can be construed as a minority by name but it's a small percentage.

Not or denying it happens like you say but once again I don't see evidence that it's a huge problem. I go back to the CBS news report last week interviewing several police chiefs of major cities. One chief who is black said they don't profile race; they profile criminals.
 
Originally posted by Seton75:

Of course people should follow the law. If they did, we wouldn't need cops. And of course, they should cooperate with the cops. But that has absolutely nothing to do with whether the cop acted properly. Cause if I am an asshole or a great guy, the cop should be fair.

I get stopped in Middletown doing 50 in a 35. My son with a beard gets stopped. A Black kid with dreads gets stopped. Do we really thing we all get treat similarly? And the idea that I will get off if I have a PBA sticker in my car is outrageous, as if that has anything to do with my guilt of innocence. But that is an accepted part of law enforcement's relationship with the public.

I see the prosecutors in Ferguson already admit some testimony was a lie, a white women who just happened to testify that she saw things exactly how the police said they did. She wasn't really there, but no big deal.

This is issue is not some trivial thing. This is a huge issue at the core of our society.
You are making the same mistake that you accuse the police of doing. Profiling.
You have only your opinion and maybe some anecdotal evidence to back your statement about who would get treated differently, you , your son or the black man with dread locks.

Painting police with a broad brush is just as egregious as painting all men with dreadlocks with the same broad brush.
 
... and of course we now have the tragic assassination of two police officers in Bed Stuy today. Apparently tied to the Ferguson and Staten Island incidents.

I don't suppose Obama, DiBlasio, Holder , Sharpton and the like will be encouraging people to march in protest of the killing of these two police officers.
 
Originally posted by RLNJ13:
... and of course we now have the tragic assassination of two police officers in Bed Stuy today. Apparently tied to the Ferguson and Staten Island incidents.

I don't suppose Obama, DiBlasio, Holder , Sharpton and the like will be encouraging people to march in protest of the killing of these two police officers.
+1
They all have blood on their hands over this tragic assassination.
 
Actually more so than politicians who have done an awful job of managing these situations I find the media in general to be culpable for what happened. Showing the Garner video over and over again; constantly trying to make the Garner and Brown issue about race vs whether they were justified or not. I find it interesting that through the Brown and Garner cases it was always portrayed as an "unarmed black and white police officer" but last night no mention of the gunman's race. Double standard?

The media has fanned the flames of protests and rioting in the name of ratings and they need to be held accountable at some level as to what they've created.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:
Actually more so than politicians who have done an awful job of managing these situations I find the media in general to be culpable for what happened. Showing the Garner video over and over again; constantly trying to make the Garner and Brown issue about race vs whether they were justified or not. I find it interesting that through the Brown and Garner cases it was always portrayed as an "unarmed black and white police officer" but last night no mention of the gunman's race. Double standard?

The media has fanned the flames of protests and rioting in the name of ratings and they need to be held accountable at some level as to what they've created.
Yup and add the Travon Martin case to the media making things worse too. I don't condone what that guy did to Travon at all but the press coverage was crazy and irresponsible there too calling George Zimmerman half white etc. Just irresponsible coverage by the press and it gets people inflamed for all the wrong reasons.

Very sad day today for those two officers who gave their lives just because they wore a badge. Diblasio and Holder and the press have blood on their hands for sure over this incident - no doubt. Lots of crazies out there and all they need is a little encouragement. Maybe these politicians will be a little more careful with what they say. But I doubt the press has learned anything...
 
Originally posted by SHUMike:
Originally posted by RLNJ13:
... and of course we now have the tragic assassination of two police officers in Bed Stuy today. Apparently tied to the Ferguson and Staten Island incidents.

I don't suppose Obama, DiBlasio, Holder , Sharpton and the like will be encouraging people to march in protest of the killing of these two police officers.
+1
They all have blood on their hands over this tragic assassination.
+2
 
Originally posted by SPK145:
Originally posted by SHUMike:
Originally posted by RLNJ13:
... and of course we now have the tragic assassination of two police officers in Bed Stuy today. Apparently tied to the Ferguson and Staten Island incidents.

I don't suppose Obama, DiBlasio, Holder , Sharpton and the like will be encouraging people to march in protest of the killing of these two police officers.
+1
They all have blood on their hands over this tragic assassination.
+2
-100
 
Originally posted by chickenbox:

Originally posted by SPK145:
Originally posted by SHUMike:
Originally posted by RLNJ13:
... and of course we now have the tragic assassination of two police officers in Bed Stuy today. Apparently tied to the Ferguson and Staten Island incidents.

I don't suppose Obama, DiBlasio, Holder , Sharpton and the like will be encouraging people to march in protest of the killing of these two police officers.
+1
They all have blood on their hands over this tragic assassination.
+2
-100
The race-baiters got what they were looking for.
 
Originally posted by SPK145:
Originally posted by chickenbox:

Originally posted by SPK145:
Originally posted by SHUMike:
Originally posted by RLNJ13:
... and of course we now have the tragic assassination of two police officers in Bed Stuy today. Apparently tied to the Ferguson and Staten Island incidents.

I don't suppose Obama, DiBlasio, Holder , Sharpton and the like will be encouraging people to march in protest of the killing of these two police officers.
+1
They all have blood on their hands over this tragic assassination.
+2
-100
The race-baiters got what they were looking for.
Was going to disagree until I just saw video released by TMZ of Obama, di Blasio, Holder, Sharpton, Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, Al Franken, both Clintons, George Soros, Obama's REAL African parents and a bunch of gay guys high fiving and chanting "What do we want?" "More dead cops!" "When do we want them?" "Now!"
 
LOL hahahahahahaha most of the heads' of the posters on this board would spontaneously combust if that happened.

scanners.jpg
 
Originally posted by Bobbie Solo:
LOL hahahahahahaha most of the heads' of the posters on this board would spontaneously combust if that happened.
Yeah laughing the day after such a tragic event...shows the classless piece of crap you are.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:
Originally posted by Bobbie Solo:
LOL hahahahahahaha most of the heads' of the posters on this board would spontaneously combust if that happened.
Yeah laughing the day after such a tragic event...shows the classless piece of crap you are.
Lighten up, Francis. It's pretty clear that he's chuckling at chicken's over the top response to the absurd notion that so many people have blood on their hands due to the actions of one psycho in Brooklyn. No sane person would laugh at the deaths of two police officers in the line of duty.
 
6711, don't care. This is no laughing matter and the lack of leadership displayed by those in office has been deplorable. I'm not in the mood to "lighten up"
 
I don't know if it's on this thread or another in this forum, but we definitely agree on the divisiveness of the current political environment. But this shooting should be blamed on the nut who pulled the trigger. Trying to drag in politicians will just further divide people instead of focusing on preventing heinous crimes like this.

One of the many unfortunate things is the murderer took the easy way out and killed himself before any real punishment could have been handed out.
 
Originally posted by Pirate6711:
I don't know if it's on this thread or another in this forum, but we definitely agree on the divisiveness of the current political environment. But this shooting should be blamed on the nut who pulled the trigger. Trying to drag in politicians will just further divide people instead of focusing on preventing heinous crimes like this.

One of the many unfortunate things is the murderer took the easy way out and killed himself before any real punishment could have been handed out.
Politicians are elected as leaders and have a responsibility during times like this. IMO, they have failed to do so. There is a long list that absolutely should be blamed for escalating the divisive climate that enabled this nut to react.

Garner
It was clear that the prosecutor asked for a charge for indictment that would be difficult, if not impossible to get. Where was DiBlasio, Holder, Cuomo, etc., at the start of that process either counseling or recommending to the prosecutor to go for a lesser charge that would have likely led to indictment? There is no way that any of these so-called leaders didn't have visibility into the process or could have influenced it to hold the prosecutor accountable. This is all about keeping your ass out of traffic. The easy thing to do is sit on the sideline and comment on the failures of the process after the grand jury makes their ruling, which is what they all did.

Brown
Holder and his office were all over Fergusson and certainly knew and read all of the witness testimony weeks before the Grand Jury decision came down. It should have been pretty obvious when several witnesses corroborated Wilson's story along with the laws on the books in Missouri that enable an officer to use deadly force when they feel their life is in danger, that there was no way an indictment was going to be handed down. Instead of taking those precious days and weeks before the announcement to pre-emptively prepare the public by educating them on the process and potential outcomes (and why), the leadership (Holder, Obama, the Governor of Missouri, McCullough, etc.) all did nothing to prevent the public response that occurred. Even after the announcement they all did absolutely nothing to bring people together.

How about political leaders diffusing the racial overtones (since there was no proof or evidence that either one of these incidents were racial in nature)?

How about reaching out to the major news networks in advance to report the facts and implore them to not fan the potential of riots?

At the end of the day, do you think that Obama, Holder, McCullough, DiBlasio, Jay Nixon can look in the mirror and say "I did everything I could to prevent the violence, looting and death of these officers". IMO, they didn't by a long shot.
 
Originally posted by RLNJ13:

Originally posted by Seton75:

Of course people should follow the law. If they did, we wouldn't need cops. And of course, they should cooperate with the cops. But that has absolutely nothing to do with whether the cop acted properly. Cause if I am an asshole or a great guy, the cop should be fair.

I get stopped in Middletown doing 50 in a 35. My son with a beard gets stopped. A Black kid with dreads gets stopped. Do we really thing we all get treat similarly? And the idea that I will get off if I have a PBA sticker in my car is outrageous, as if that has anything to do with my guilt of innocence. But that is an accepted part of law enforcement's relationship with the public.

I see the prosecutors in Ferguson already admit some testimony was a lie, a white women who just happened to testify that she saw things exactly how the police said they did. She wasn't really there, but no big deal.

This is issue is not some trivial thing. This is a huge issue at the core of our society.
You are making the same mistake that you accuse the police of doing. Profiling.
You have only your opinion and maybe some anecdotal evidence to back your statement about who would get treated differently, you , your son or the black man with dread locks.

Painting police with a broad brush is just as egregious as painting all men with dreadlocks with the same broad brush.
Yes, a broad brush. To give you my perspective, I do not think I have the capacity to NOT see things through a racial bias. It is too ingrained in me, and I think in most of us. We may know it is wrong. We may overcome it most of the time, but imo, that bias is there at all times. My dealings with people of all ages tells me it is still so. My sons tell me that so many of their friends grew up in homes where racism is typical, even still taught. My fellow Dads at the Catholic grammar school games gathered away from me to tell the racial jokes. We act like we are there. We are getting better. We have such a long way to go.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:
Originally posted by Bobbie Solo:
LOL hahahahahahaha most of the heads' of the posters on this board would spontaneously combust if that happened.
Yeah laughing the day after such a tragic event...shows the classless piece of crap you are.
nice use of the civility that you pretend to be a part of. keep showing your true colors. doubt this will get edited either, despite the constant posts from admins talking about no insults/personal attacks.
 
oh, i see. Since you're being self-righteous, the rules don't apply to you? Get over yourself! Wasn't even talking to you or directly referencing what you're just oh so passionate about.
 
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