Gordon Calls Players' Meeting

[Piratefan2009]

a lot of quality teams would have lost to Creighton the way they played yesterday.

Quality teams tend not to play that way. That's why people call them "quality teams". That also isn't the first time we've played uninspired ball this year. Long Beach State hasn't done anything since beating us. They are not a good loss. We also have played garbage ball for much of both the DePaul and Villanova games.

That is NOT a reason to give up on this team!

No one on this board has said they are giving up on the team. Everyone is basically letting out a collective groan. Because they have seen these cracks of player discord in several past seasons, which always were followed by a total unraveling. Nobody wants that to happen. That's why people are groaning.

I gave Willard the benefit of the doubt

Willard proved yesterday that Rashed Anthony, Braeden Anderson and Myles Carter all can match of effectively with the likes of Geoffrey Groselle.

None of those players were in any way a factor. So Willard proved he can put bodies off the bench to take a foul.... That is not impressive. You want to coach your kids not to foul. That's what good coaches do. No one is impressed that we've got a bunch of kids that can foul out on our bench.

it's undeniable proof that Willard sucks

You should be ashamed of yourselves

No one has said this. You are talking to zero people at this point.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

LOL! Groselle was 3-4 with 9 points AFTER Delgado went to the bench for good.

So the subs finally made him miss. He was perfect against Delgado.

 

[leo]

The reasons provided are a bunch of garbage. Nothing ever changes at the Hall. Expect more of the same nonsense until a change is made.

 

[jimmylanjello]

Quality teams tend not to play that way. That's why people call them "quality teams". That also isn't the first time we've played uninspired ball this year. Long Beach State hasn't done anything since beating us. They are not a good loss. We also have played garbage ball for much of both the DePaul and Villanova games.

It is tempting not to reply to such intellectually-devoid drivel, but since you took the time to excruciatingly dissect my fundamentally simple message, fine, I'll bite:

I said Creighton played damn well yesterday. You think you have disproved that point by saying LBSU hasn't done much since beating us and we had some bad minutes against DePaul and Nova. Bravo! Really robust thinking. I guess you slept in for most of your Logic classes.


No one on this board has said they are giving up on the team. Everyone is basically letting out a collective groan. Because they have seen these cracks of player discord in several past seasons, which always were followed by a total unraveling. Nobody wants that to happen. That's why people are groaning.

Did you read any of the above comments? Not on other threads "on this board", just on this thread!! Perhaps you slept in when the rest of us learned to read in elementary school too?




None of those players were in any way a factor. So Willard proved he can put bodies off the bench to take a foul.... That is not impressive. You want to coach your kids not to foul. That's what good coaches do. No one is impressed that we've got a bunch of kids that can foul out on our bench.

Did you read what I wrote? (Oh wait, I forgot that you may be reading-challenged). I said he put in 3 big bodies that played solid defense against big men. Other coached will see that we have a lot of big bodies that can play solid defense against big men. That matters. Do you even think about the stats before you write? The 3 guys I mentioned ended up with 1 foul each, over a collective 20 minutes of game time. Meanwhile Angel got 2 fouls and a technical over the exact same 20 minutes of game time. In short, they are were a perfect substitute for Angel in the fouls per minute department. Your comment that we proved we have "a bunch of kids that can foul out on the bench" is, well, thoughtless.



No one has said this. You are talking to zero people at this point.

Again, try reading first, and popping off second.

 

[jimmylanjello]

LOL! Groselle was 3-4 with 9 points AFTER Delgado went to the bench for good.

Laugh out as loud as you want, but a basic understanding of mathematics and a look at the stat sheet will show you that would make Groselle 4-4 with 11 points BEFORE Delgado went to the bench. In my math classes they taught me that we did better after, and with a cast of characters with 3x as many fouls to give. But you just keep on laughing out loud...

 

[SPK145]

11 points in 20 minutes with Delgado in the game; 9 points in 20 minutes without Delgado in the game. Groselle only played 21 minutes in the game. Tells me nothing other than Seton Hall sucked against Groselle all game.

 

[shu09]

Laugh out as loud as you want, but a basic understanding of mathematics and a look at the stat sheet will show you that would make Groselle 4-4 with 11 points BEFORE Delgado went to the bench. In my math classes they taught me that we did better after, and with a cast of characters with 3x as many fouls to give. But you just keep on laughing out loud...

Delgado wasn't good yesterday, we all know that. But you said that Willard proved the reserves could match up effectively with Groselle (LOL!) and that it was a "damn powerful" thing (LOL again!!!). In talking about the reserves, you also said that "suddenly now we know that we have a lot of guys who can play effective D in the paint." (hahahaha).

One look at the stat sheet tells me 9 points and 3-4 shooting is not good defense, no matter who was playing.

Just go ahead and keep looking for false hope. Carry on!

 

[jimmylanjello]

11 points in 20 minutes with Delgado in the game; 9 points in 20 minutes without Delgado in the game. Groselle only played 21 minutes in the game. Tells me nothing other than Seton Hall sucked against Groselle all game.

Fair analysis of facts on your part. Others around here should try that. My point was that we have more ways to manage opponents defensively than just one man. Anyone who has ever coached knows that matters. A lot. Now Willard does, and I sub, it we'll be better for it down the stretch if we get there. I continue to believe we have a chance to do so, other "fans" here clearly do not.

 

[jimmylanjello]

Delgado wasn't good yesterday, we all know that. But you said that Willard proved the reserves could match up effectively with Groselle (LOL!) and that it was a "damn powerful" thing (LOL again!!!). In talking about the reserves, you also said that "suddenly now we know that we have a lot of guys who can play effective D in the paint." (hahahaha).

One look at the stat sheet tells me 9 points and 3-4 shooting is not good defense, no matter who was playing.

Just go ahead and keep looking for false hope. Carry on!

That "false hope" comment would be a good example of why I put quotation marks around the word "fans" above. Why are you even on this board? Go to the Nova board, found a new board called "IHATESETONHALLBASKETBALL.COM" or do something else to get a life please. We don't have to be mindless cheerleaders around here but giving up on this season's team based on a single game and thinking the rest of us on a FAN board want to read about it is pathetic. I suppose if you were a Providence fan you'd have given up on them this season too because they lost to Marquette. If you were a Carolina Panthers fan I guess you'd have given up on them. I hope for your sake you were a Dolphins fan in 1972, maybe they lived up to your standards, probably not but maybe. You seem to write a lot of "hahahahaha" and "LOL" but do you ever laugh in enjoyment of anything if all you can see is the bad in everything? I'll be at the Rock cheering my ass off for my Pirates next game... they may win and they may lose but that won't stop me from wanting them to win. You will probably be there booing them. I will say a prayer for you in Mass.

 

[Vegas pj]

11 points in 20 minutes with Delgado in the game; 9 points in 20 minutes without Delgado in the game. Groselle only played 21 minutes in the game. Tells me nothing other than Seton Hall sucked against Groselle all game.

Correction: SH sucked against Creighton all game.

 

[Piratz]

Discipline is a funny thing. It has to be even, measured, and consistent. You start losing players with stuff like this, IMO.

I do think it's a good thing Gordon is taking some initiative. That seems to have been missing in recent years. You need players to step up and lead, not just the coach. You hope it's aligned with the coach in an ideal world and not players taking over in spite of the coach.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Discipline is a funny thing. It has to be even, measured, and consistent. You start losing players with stuff like this, IMO.

Look the ability to use the bench as a motivational tool is a good thing. Did he go overboard on Saturday??? Maybe yes, maybe no. Who are any of us to say? We don't know the details. But the message was loud and clear that all players can be put on the bench, no different than Dehere and Walker being put on the bench back then. Willard sacrificed the 4th game of the big east schedule. He didn't wait til the 14th game of conference play. He sent a message at a point in time that can save things. I'm not saying it's going to work. I'm not saying it's going to fail either. I think that's what most want to see out of a coach discipline wise. The only thing you hope to come is guys realize, I'm playing in the big east, most nights there are scouts there, and the scouts don't care how I do sitting on the bench 15-20 minutes per game.

 

[Joe_T]

... I never warmed to this team because there are a handful of really unlikeable kids who conspired against teammates last year.

Is this what happened? Sorry, but it's an important enough reveal of last year to ask for confirmation. I've seen posts blaming Gibbs and Sina, which would be the opposite claim.

 

[SHUSource]

Well, there were also plenty of posts blaming members of last year's freshman class, as well as the now-departed "assistant coach," but it's a neater, tidier narrative to place the blame exclusively on players who left, bury our heads in the sand, and pretend that all will be swell now that those naughty malcontents have gone, so that is the narrative that prevailed.

As Dan has said, there was enough blame for what happened last year to be shared by many people, some gone, and some still here, and I'm sure that's true. But it's pretty clear who was "othered" last year, and I guess it will never sit quite right with me. As far as Sina goes, he clearly should not have been starting nor getting so many minutes, but that's a failure of the coach to manage that situation. That he was made to feel as he was by teammates is also disgraceful. From a basketball point of view, his loss is not a tough one to endure, and I know his dad is a tough personality to handle. I don't like the way he bolted mid-season, but it's hard to say what you'd do in that hostile situation. You only live once.

It's also been said that Sterling (and perhaps his dad) may have had some issues, but to me, if there's a matter of one ball and multiple guys who want it, you defer to your upperclassmen, especially when a kid is clearly the better player (not upside or potential, but getting it done on the court). If you are a freshman, even a five-star (and while this sounds targeted exclusively at Whitehead, it is not), and there is a kid like Sterling still there, you wait your turn. You'll still get plenty of shots, but Sterling was still the guy - and should've been. So if that's the way the division was constructed, it's unfortunate we had to lose a good, smart kid who had come to us, indirectly, from Seton Hall Prep and who was part of a respected basketball family.

Again, as Dan says, there was blame to be shared by everyone - it was handled poorly by a lot of people - but to say the issues left with Gibbs and Sina is facile and, as we see, incorrect.

 

[Piratz]

Look the ability to use the bench as a motivational tool is a good thing. Did he go overboard on Saturday??? Maybe yes, maybe no. Who are any of us to say? We don't know the details. But the message was loud and clear that all players can be put on the bench, no different than Dehere and Walker being put on the bench back then. Willard sacrificed the 4th game of the big east schedule. He didn't wait til the 14th game of conference play. He sent a message at a point in time that can save things. I'm not saying it's going to work. I'm not saying it's going to fail either. I think that's what most want to see out of a coach discipline wise. The only thing you hope to come is guys realize, I'm playing in the big east, most nights there are scouts there, and the scouts don't care how I do sitting on the bench 15-20 minutes per game.

We shall find out. But at some point the fact that you have to continuously discipline kids who are halfway through their sophomore year with so much to play for after really good starts to each season becomes a poor reflection on the coach and the effectiveness of the discipline!

Programmatic details...

 

[Piratz]

Well said, Source!

I am hoping to be wrong and I am attempting to keep an open mind for the rest of the season, but am nonetheless forming this same perception of these kids at the moment. We'll see if Saturday has any impact.

Unfortunately the type of nuanced understanding and mutual respect of teammates within the team concept you mention is completely lost on this group thus far because they've never been forced to earn their stripes. They seemingly don't respect the coach and they do not respect their teammates, otherwise they wouldn't put the team in a bad position with their actions. They do seem to only respect themselves, unfortunately. They have been kowtowed to ad nauseam, from their HS careers and recruitment to Seton Hall, and now well into their careers at SHU, including that coup last year.

I credit Willard for attempting discipline. In theory. Not really sure about that in particular because I have my doubts on that as well for obvious reasons pertaining to who he has been as a coach for 5+ seasons. This is the hand he's dealt himself. We'll see. 14 games remain.

 

[Joe_T]

Well, there were also plenty of posts blaming members of last year's freshman class, as well as the now-departed "assistant coach," but it's a neater, tidier narrative to place the blame exclusively on players who left, bury our heads in the sand, and pretend that all will be swell now that those naughty malcontents have gone, so that is the narrative that prevailed.

As Dan has said, there was enough blame for what happened last year to be shared by many people, some gone, and some still here, and I'm sure that's true. But it's pretty clear who was "othered" last year, and I guess it will never sit quite right with me. As far as Sina goes, he clearly should not have been starting nor getting so many minutes, but that's a failure of the coach to manage that situation. That he was made to feel as he was by teammates is also disgraceful. From a basketball point of view, his loss is not a tough one to endure, and I know his dad is a tough personality to handle. I don't like the way he bolted mid-season, but it's hard to say what you'd do in that hostile situation. You only live once.

It's also been said that Sterling (and perhaps his dad) may have had some issues, but to me, if there's a matter of one ball and multiple guys who want it, you defer to your upperclassmen, especially when a kid is clearly the better player (not upside or potential, but getting it done on the court). If you are a freshman, even a five-star (and while this sounds targeted exclusively at Whitehead, it is not), and there is a kid like Sterling still there, you wait your turn. You'll still get plenty of shots, but Sterling was still the guy - and should've been. So if that's the way the division was constructed, it's unfortunate we had to lose a good, smart kid who had come to us, indirectly, from Seton Hall Prep and who was part of a respected basketball family.

Again, as Dan says, there was blame to be shared by everyone - it was handled poorly by a lot of people - but to say the issues left with Gibbs and Sina is facile and, as we see, incorrect.

Appreciate you taking the time to give such a complete and thoughtful answer. I think I understand now, thanks.

 

[SHUSource]

Appreciate you taking the time to give such a complete and thoughtful answer. I think I understand now, thanks.

I should say that this is the best understanding I can develop on the situation, based on a number of who I consider informed, credible sources, and then filtered through my own perceptions.

 

[Joe_T]

I should say that this is the best understanding I can develop on the situation, based on a number of who I consider informed, credible sources, and then filtered through my own perceptions.

I appreciate the added value of your filter, it seems fair and even-handed all around, and gives rationales, thanks. "Disgraceful" and "othered" are great terms, that just had to apply somewhere in those events.

 

[Pirate64]

Excellent post Source. Perhaps we'll look back the tri-benching as the turning point in KW's time here. And I mean this in a positive way.
We can only hope.