It took a Massacre

[SnakeTom]

My local NJ community PD has a pretty straight forward but stringent permit process. Question becomes... should the requirements be set at state / local levels or at the federal level. My inclination is to do it at the local level, but have access to national data bases.

...

Pride: Here is the problem with state vs federal regulations. Here in NJ we have a comprehensive program of background checks to prevent violent criminals from getting weapons, but other states have virtually no regulations and people can go to these gun shows or flea markets and buy whatever they want with no checks or waiting period. It allows criminals to drive to one of these states, get their weapons and then drive back up here with the weapon.

I do not think guns should be taken from law abiding citizens but we should do whatever we can to prevent them from getting into the hands of violent criminals, domestic abusers or the mentally ill. The Brady law was in effect for about 10 years requiring background checks but Congress after heavy lobbying from the gun lobby allowed the law to expire.

Tom K

 

[SHPIRATE]

Lincoln was one of the biggest racists out there, he wanted to return the black man to Africa! Also didn't want to give blacks equal rights with whites.

.

Abe Lincoln was a racist?

Who was your history teacher. Michelle Bachman?

 

[SPK145]

Abe Lincoln was a racist?

Who was your history teacher. Michelle Bachman?

Better re-read history, not the version they teach in our dumb-downed public schools.

See this article by an, ahem, well-known racial activist:

http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2009/02/was_lincoln_a_racist.html

 

[Muggsy Blue]

Ok, so Lincoln wasn't the great emancipator, he was an out and out racist. Those damn public schools and those stupid teachers. How was I to know? I bought in. This post has become so silly; I just can't continue. The man I thought was our greatest President, just another damn racist.

 

[SnakeTom]

If you look hard enough you can find an author to say just about anything. So one author says Lincoln isn't what we have been led to believe and then it is presented here as fact. I've seen this done more than once on these boards by differing posters. Well I don't buy it. Until proven by better evidence I'll still consider Honest Abe as one of our great Presidents if not the greatest President.

Tom K

 

[knowknow456]

SPK always tries to keep it real; sometimes he misses the mark. I guess his education is to blame. Here is what I learned in high school. As per the attached link which I will paraphrase, Lincoln was primarily concerned with saving the Union and would work toward that goal if that included freeing all the slaves, none of the slaves or freeing some slaves but not others. That didn't make him a racist. He was a politician and a product of his time. Somehow, he managed to hold the Union together and end slavery. It's ok to keep him on the short list of greatest Americans ever.

http://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/24/n...-greeley-slavery-union-restoration-union.html

 

[SPK145]

If you look hard enough you can find an author to say just about anything. So one author says Lincoln isn't what we have been led to believe and then it is presented here as fact. {/QUOTE]

Or you could read Lincoln's speeches where he says what he thinks of the black man. Is that just not fact enough? Or those facts don't fit?

knowknow has it correct. Lincoln hated the idea of slavery regardless of color, didn't like the black man, thought he was inferior, wanted them shipped to their own country, but would do anything to save the Union. And pissed all over the Constitution to get there.

 

[knowknow456]

As for pissing on the Constitution, yes, Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus and then ignored a Supreme Court order to basically cease and desist. Is this a mark against him on the checklist toward "Greatest American ever?" Yes. Was he roundly criticized at the time for his actions? Yes. Has history recorded those actions? Yes. Does the population at large today care about it? Not so much.

I think it can be argued that in the uncertain period immediately after the start of the War, Lincoln did what he felt was necessary to survive (especially in the case of Merryman). It seems less defensible in cases that centered around the draft a year or two later. The bottom line was these were targeted uses (or if you prefer, abuses) of his executive powers. Yet the country did not fall into a Monarchy or Dictatorship as a result. Much like in the period immediately after 9/11, people surrendered some of their civil rights because they believed the threat to their security was great enough. Eventually (and fortunately), the threat from the Civil War subsided and these particular executive privileges fell into disuse.

So kudos to you for pointing out that Lincoln was not a Saint. You are always trying to keep it real. And I have no problem if these transgressions are enough to knock him out of the top spot of "Greatest American ever". But for me at least, Lincoln deserves to remain on that very short list.

 

[Muggsy Blue]

Thanx know know, I'm feeling a little better

 

[SPK145]

Lincoln was pragmatic and would do anything to save the Union. For that he is to be commended and that alone makes him one of the best presidents but he was mo advocate of the black race, quite the opposite, yet we are taught that he was some wonderful person.

 

[Shuathelete]

“I love him not because he was perfect but because he was not and yet triumphed."

 

[SnakeTom]

Lincoln was pragmatic and would do anything to save the Union. For that he is to be commended and that alone makes him one of the best presidents but he was mo advocate of the black race, quite the opposite, yet we are taught that he was some wonderful person.

Two points

1. Presidents are rated based on what they did and have accomplished not what they said.

2. When using historical quotes they must be considered in the context of the historical era when they were spoken.

Tom K

 

[JIMSOULS]

Here's an example of the racism some people say no longer exists. This is not only an attack on a sports icon but also a sitting U.S. President. White America needs to stop this nonsense.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/hank-aaron-atlanta-braves-racist-hate-mail

 

[HALL85]

Aaron's comments can actually be construed as racist as well which is sad, because that's not the point he is trying to make. The day we stop using labels will be the day we defeat racism and bigotry in this country.

 

[SnakeTom]

Of course racism still exists and it's not just in this country but a worldwide problem. I really don't know if this condition has gotten better or worse over the course of time.

TK

 

[Belluno]

Here's an example of the racism some people say no longer exists. This is not only an attack on a sports icon but also a sitting U.S. President. White America needs to stop this nonsense.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/hank-aaron-atlanta-braves-racist-hate-mail

Of course, what been lost in all of this is the fact that that our sitting President spent twenty years listening to the racist rants of Rev. Wright. He was quick to blame the white cops in Cambridge and Ferguson while failing to prosecute the two Black Panthers who menaced white voters in Philadelphia. How many times has the racist Al Sharpton visited the White House?

That racism exists is indisputable, who says it doesn't?, but it cuts across all races and the fact that it does exist should not give anyone the right to malign all members of any race, as you have chosen to do on more than one occasion.

Blacks have suffered tremendous injustices in the past, but that was then and this is now. The times have changed and will continue to change, but you have chosen wallow in victimhood. That's sad. You have a college education and, apparently, a steady job. That's more than 93 million Americans of all colors can claim.

 

[Seton75]

Two points

1. Presidents are rated based on what they did and have accomplished not what they said.

2. When using historical quotes they must be considered in the context of the historical era when they were spoken.

Tom K

Lincoln like all of us was a man in his time. We change gradually. Of course, from Dred Scott to the Emancipation Proclamation was a long trip in a short time. There was a documentary about the Gay situation on PBS about a year ago. In it a gay activist circa 1970 said of course no one will allow support gay marriage. That was like some slave thinking they are pretty smart, maybe after the war they can attend Univ of Alabama.

I am of the opinion that the way most of us were raised, the world most of us grew up in, has made it virtually impossible for us to be color blind.

 

[Muggsy Blue]

Lincoln was pragmatic and would do anything to save the Union. For that he is to be commended and that alone makes him one of the best presidents but he was mo advocate of the black race, quite the opposite, yet we are taught that he was some wonderful person.[/

What books are you reading, or better yet, what high school did you attend? LOL

 

[HALL85]

Of course racism still exists and it's not just in this country but a worldwide problem. I really don't know if this condition has gotten better or worse over the course of time.

TK

I think the proof in this country that it has gotten better is that in the last decade we have seen minorities like Obama, Marco Rubio, JC Watts, Bobby Jindal, Cory Booker get elected to high offices. This didn't happen 20 years ago. A black woman, Mia Love elected to Congress in Utah of all states. Racism and hatred cuts across the entire cross-section of this country, but thankfully with each generation, we are becoming more color blind and the proof is there by how people vote.

If we stop using labels, it will no doubt happen faster. And playing a race card is a cop out and even worse, becomes divisive when used when there was no racial issue as when Obama and Holder were quick to jump the gun on Darren Wilson. Our leaders need to be better than that. The media is the worst but that's when leadership really needs to step up.

 

[Seton75]

7 churches burned down, three blamed on arson, KKK rallies scheduled...

 

[donnie_baseball]

What a disgrace.

 

[HALL85]

7 churches burned down, three blamed on arson, KKK rallies scheduled...

So that's your point? Compare the actions of a few racist idiots to those of tens of millions of people that are color blind? Should I judge the African American community by the few youth that play "knock out" against unsuspecting Jews? By the rioters in Baltimore that specifically targeted Asian owned businesses for arson? Of course not...there is a minority of those that have racist hatrid that cuts across all races and ages. Thankfully it's less viral than the press or others try to stir up.

 

[Belluno]

7 churches burned down, three blamed on arson, KKK rallies scheduled...

Nine blacks killed in Chicago on the Fourth, including one poor little seven old boy who happened to be the innocent son of a big time drug lord who was the intended victim, apparently. You can't pin this one on white racism. What's the body count in Chicago this year? The white racists don't have to lift a damned finger; blacks are doing the killing for them. Black lives matter only when a white is accused. How sad cause dead is dead, regardless of who pulled the trigger.

Those of us who believe in God, a just God, a loving God, a merciful God, should say a prayer for that poor little boy, who should now be at peace, a peace he might never have attained had he followed in his Father's footsteps.

Anyone who is not capable of defending his family, his property, or himself is a damned fool. as far as I'm concerned. The worst is yet to come. Thanks, Barry, you sure have changed America, just as you promised. Everyone happy?

 

[SPK145]

And not one of those killed in Chicago had anything to do with the confederate flag. I thought that was the latest narrative??

 

[donnie_baseball]

And not one of those killed in Chicago had anything to do with the confederate flag. I thought that was the latest narrative??

Yes, according to the media and the liberal whites of Bergen County.

 

[knowknow456]

Personally, I look at the violence in Chicago, the merits of the Confederate flag on state grounds and the shooting in Charleston as three separate things and not as one continuous narrative.

 

[Muggsy Blue]

Yes, according to the media and the liberal whites of Bergen County.

Liberal and rich,

 

[donnie_baseball]

Liberal and rich,

LOL - that is an important distinction. In NJ, that is where most liberals fall; why the outrage over racism when their hamlets are policed to the hilt, and no person of color can get anywhere near them?

There are some liberal, poor people -- unfortunately they are pawns. Liberal middle class people are generally sons-and-daughters of Kennedy Democrats who actually believe that one party is better than the other, regarding their interests, which may, or may not, at one time, have been true. These people may reside in places like Lyndhurst, and may have far more contact with the very people the 1% (liberal, and rich) claim to support. While I don't always agree with them, these people, to me are "salt of the earth," and they have my respect.

 

[SnakeTom]

LOL - that is an important distinction. In NJ, that is where most liberals fall; why the outrage over racism when their hamlets are policed to the hilt, and no person of color can get anywhere near them?

So I guess there are no conservative rich people in Bergen County? You know the ones that keep electing Scott Garrett and Gerald Cardinale.

TK

 

[knowknow456]

Personally, I like/dislike people in Bergen County at about the same rate as other NJ counties although I have to admit I haven't studied the issue as deeply as others may have.

Either way, Bergen County has had little impact on South Carolina and their desire to keep the Confederate flag flying. I believe the removal of the flag from State grounds is a good thing overall.

 

[Belluno]

Between last Friday and yesterday in Baltimore there were 25 shootings. The good news is that fewer than half of them (12) resulted in homicides. Even better news is that though there have been 24 murders so far this month, that's fewer than two a day. Progress, I guess. Of course the all time record- 42-set in May is still in easy reach. What's the over/under? Didn't they strike the cause of all this last week? I thought that would cure the problem. Not so. Wondering why.

 

[Seton75]

Between last Friday and yesterday in Baltimore there were 25 shootings. The good news is that fewer than half of them (12) resulted in homicides. Even better news is that though there have been 24 murders so far this month, that's fewer than two a day. Progress, I guess. Of course the all time record- 42-set in May is still in easy reach. What's the over/under? Didn't they strike the cause of all this last week? I thought that would cure the problem. Not so. Wondering why.

You are better than this.