Last Night

[Robot_Man]

there’s 330 million people in the country, even 500,000 isn’t a lot, but you’re excited over 10,000. Get a clue.

Not comparing the 2 other than a good number of people listened to them. Doesn’t mean they’re going to get 75 million votes.

Borders, economy, transgender in sports and so many other topics he was more center than Kamala. He never really had to move much because nobody forced him to. He was the more center candidate from start to finish. People appreciate consistency when it’s good. The Seton Hall pirates were consistent this year did you appreciate their consistency?

Do you see a lot of rallies with 500,000 people? Seems like you're just moving the goalposts.

I'd argue that Trump was the more extreme candidate than Harris. The demonization of immigrants (remember the Springfield, Ohio situation?), tarriffs (which almost nobody thinks is a good idea), and the transgender in sports stuff (which is a distraction, it's a non-issue meant to drive animus toward trans people in general).

To your last point about Seton Hall being consistently bad this year- I know you don't think that I think a consistently bad politician with odious views would be successful. There's a reason David Duke has run for political office many times and has had very little success to show for it.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Do you see a lot of rallies with 500,000 people? Seems like you're just moving the goalposts.

I'd argue that Trump was the more extreme candidate than Harris. The demonization of immigrants (remember the Springfield, Ohio situation?), tarriffs (which almost nobody thinks is a good idea), and the transgender in sports stuff (which is a distraction, it's a non-issue meant to drive animus toward trans people in general).

To your last point about Seton Hall being consistently bad this year- I know you don't think that I think a consistently bad politician with odious views would be successful. There's a reason David Duke has run for political office many times and has had very little success to show for it.

There weren’t 50 rallies with 10,000 people each. You’re creaming your pants over one rally. Big whoopdie do. Trump filled MSG, isn’t the makeup of that area all democrat. That one example on its own isn’t good enough to win the presidency but you’re taking the one example and saying see Bernie would’ve won. It’s really not a good argument

You can argue whatever you want but the American people spoke and wanted Trump. I believe when America goes too far in one direction the great American experiment finds a way to bring it back to the middle. If trans is a non issue why don’t dems just let it go and focus on real issues? If it’s such fair competition why aren’t women who’ve transitioned competing at the highest level vs guys?

Bernie’s and AOCs can win in their area. America as a whole they have no chance if they’re consistent with their message. America as a whole doesn’t want it. Democrats aren’t taking away from sure win. They take away from Bernie because it’s a sure loss

 

[Robot_Man]

There weren’t 50 rallies with 10,000 people each. You’re creaming your pants over one rally. Big whoopdie do. Trump filled MSG, isn’t the makeup of that area all democrat. That one example on its own isn’t good enough to win the presidency but you’re taking the one example and saying see Bernie would’ve won. It’s really not a good argument

You can argue whatever you want but the American people spoke and wanted Trump. I believe when America goes too far in one direction the great American experiment finds a way to bring it back to the middle. If trans is a non issue why don’t dems just let it go and focus on real issues? If it’s such fair competition why aren’t women who’ve transitioned competing at the highest level vs guys?

Bernie’s and AOCs can win in their area. America as a whole they have no chance if they’re consistent with their message. America as a whole doesn’t want it. Democrats aren’t taking away from sure win. They take away from Bernie because it’s a sure loss

I mean, New York City isn't all Democrats. Are you familiar with Staten Island, for instance? Or Long Island - not technically New York City, of course, but an easy LIRR ride right to Penn Station and the Garden is a quick walk or escalator upstairs.

The Democrats had to intervene twice to subvert popular opinion to sabotage his candidacy - strange that they had to do this to a guy who was supposedly a sure loss because he would have been so unpopular in the general. Says who?

Why are you taking as conventional wisdom what the Democratic Party thinks anyway? They thought calling Trump a fascist was going to resonate with people. They thought having Liz Cheney and Mark Cuban as her biggest surrogates to close the campaign was a political master stroke. The people who lead the Democrats are habitual losers and often wrong, and they never suffer any consequences for being wrong.

It's simply not true that Bernie doesn't have any cross-partisan appeal either. Do you remember back in 2020 when Joe Rogan said he would vote for Bernie?



And the Democratic establishment bashed Sanders for touting this (because they're idiots).

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/24/politics/bernie-sanders-joe-rogan-endorsement/index.html

Well, I guess they changed their tune because it seemed like Harris was gonna go on Rogan's show during the campaign, but since the they didn't get exactly what they wanted with Rogan, they pulled the plug. Just an awful decision by her campaign.

 

[HALL85]

Two things can be true. There is a large progressive extreme in the Democratic Party for someone like Sanders to capitalize on in a primary against a fragmented field. But when the moderate part of the party puts up horrible candidates, it just ends up giving Sanders more support.

Bernie will never win a general election because the middle of America will not vote for a socialist agenda.

 

[Robot_Man]

Bernie will never win a general election because the middle of America will not vote for a socialist agenda.

Well, he'll never win a general election because he's 83 years old and his last two efforts were sabotaged. I'd like to see what would happen next time if he were 10 years younger, but we'll never know.

Democrats have never tried an actual left-wing candidate in modern times, so how would you know what middle America would vote for? I've demonstrated throughout this thread that he is popular, especially in the middle of America, both geographically (the Midwest) and ideologically (highest approval among moderates).

This liberal dogma that Bernie Sanders couldn't win should have been retired years ago. If you don't think Sanders couldn't have managed to get more voters in PA, MI, and WI and keep all the states Hillary Clinton won, I don't know what to tell you. What states would have flipped to Trump?

Look at the 2016 electoral map. Can you tell me what states that voted for Clinton would have flipped to Trump if Sanders were on the ballot instead? Maybe Virginia? But that would have required more than a 4 point rightward shift from the prior election, and the country swung rightward in the 2016 election by less than 2%.

2016 Presidential Election Interactive Map - 270toWin

Create an alternate history with this 2016 interactive electoral map. Develop your own what-if scenarios. Change the president, the states won and the nominees.

www.270towin.com

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Well, he'll never win a general election because he's 83 years old and his last two efforts were sabotaged. I'd like to see what would happen next time if he were 10 years younger, but we'll never know.

Democrats have never tried an actual left-wing candidate in modern times, so how would you know what middle America would vote for? I've demonstrated throughout this thread that he is popular, especially in the middle of America, both geographically (the Midwest) and ideologically (highest approval among moderates).

This liberal dogma that Bernie Sanders couldn't win should have been retired years ago. If you don't think Sanders couldn't have managed to get more voters in PA, MI, and WI and keep all the states Hillary Clinton won, I don't know what to tell you. What states would have flipped to Trump?

Look at the 2016 electoral map. Can you tell me what states that voted for Clinton would have flipped to Trump if Sanders were on the ballot instead? Maybe Virginia? But that would have required more than a 4 point rightward shift from the prior election, and the country swung rightward in the 2016 election by less than 2%.

2016 Presidential Election Interactive Map - 270toWin

Create an alternate history with this 2016 interactive electoral map. Develop your own what-if scenarios. Change the president, the states won and the nominees.

www.270towin.com

Most states would’ve flipped. Independents are not voting for socialism in all those states. Bernie loses those voters at an alarming rate.

I’ll bet his showing of 10k was people from like 5 states because they have these things called cars that allow people to get there to see him which means that 10k is not truly representative of just the people of that area.

 

[Rockaway]

Open borders,20% inflation,back to back 2T defecit,men in women’s sports,lying about hs fitness Biden has locked up the title of worst president ever not even close

 

[Robot_Man]

Most states would’ve flipped. Independents are not voting for socialism in all those states. Bernie loses those voters at an alarming rate.

Not true. You're really underestimating how entrenched partisan politics is, and also overestimating how much people recoil at left wing ideas. Anti-trust and government regulation of corporations, an increased government role in healthcare, increasing taxes on the wealthy - these policies generally have plurality or majority support.

I’ll bet his showing of 10k was people from like 5 states because they have these things called cars that allow people to get there to see him which means that 10k is not truly representative of just the people of that area.

What are the five closest states to Michigan? Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania? What do four out of those five states have in common?

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Not true. You're really underestimating how entrenched partisan politics is, and also overestimating how much people recoil at left wing ideas. Anti-trust and government regulation of corporations, an increased government role in healthcare, increasing taxes on the wealthy - these policies generally have plurality or majority support.


What are the five closest states to Michigan? Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania? What do four out of those five states have in common?

Everyone but you is overestimating I guess. No way democrat’s sabotage Bernie if they think he can win the general.

700 people or so from each state is making a huge swing in the electorate.

 

[Robot_Man]

Everyone but you is overestimating I guess. No way democrat’s sabotage Bernie if they think he can win the general.

700 people or so from each state is making a huge swing in the electorate.

And you are underestimating the contempt the Democratic establishment has for "the left."

 

[Robot_Man]

Open borders,20% inflation,back to back 2T defecit,men in women’s sports,lying about hs fitness Biden has locked up the title of worst president ever not even close

20% inflation? When did that happen?

 

[Merge]

Not true. You're really underestimating how entrenched partisan politics is, and also overestimating how much people recoil at left wing ideas. Anti-trust and government regulation of corporations, an increased government role in healthcare, increasing taxes on the wealthy - these policies generally have plurality or majority support.

Agree with you very much here. Bernie could have won in 2016 vs Trump. More likely than not in my opinion.

It's populism. If you are delivering a message that resonates with people and they are excited to get out and vote for you, then you will do well. Democrats need to focus on that more than they have been. Hillary, Biden, and Harris were not inspiring candidates.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

And you are underestimating the contempt the Democratic establishment has for "the left."

No I'm being realistic that most people don't want their tax rates raised. People are only so partisan. And the far left won't win a national election because of it. Big money people who back the dems won't go for it. Elections cost money, dems won't have it with a far left candidate. Guy with billions isn't donating to a campaign that says tax me 90%.

 

[Robot_Man]

Big money people who back the dems won't go for it. Elections cost money, dems won't have it with a far left candidate. Guy with billions isn't donating to a campaign that says tax me 90%.

You are absolutely right about this last point that I've quoted. It's why we need to get money's influence out of politics.

Top marginal tax rate bracket during the Eisenhower admin was 91% for married couples on any income earned over $400K That's the equivalent of approximately $4.7M in today's dollars.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

You are absolutely right about this last point that I've quoted. It's why we need to get money's influence out of politics.

Top marginal tax rate bracket during the Eisenhower admin was 91% for married couples on any income earned over $400K That's the equivalent of approximately $4.7M in today's dollars.

Well money was in politics in 2016. It's still in politics today. So thinking Bernie wins is the dumbest thing ever especially if your basis is because a few hundred people from various states traveled to see him. He loses at minimum 10 times the people that traveled to see him from lack of funding and people not wanting a 91% tax bracket. You have people in NJ making $250K, paying high property taxes, trying to put their kids in a private school, high mortgage monthly payments. They don't want higher tax rates. You could lose NJ with Bernie.

 

[Merge]

Well money was in politics in 2016. It's still in politics today. So thinking Bernie wins is the dumbest thing ever especially if your basis is because a few hundred people from various states traveled to see him. He loses at minimum 10 times the people that traveled to see him from lack of funding and people not wanting a 91% tax bracket. You have people in NJ making $250K, paying high property taxes, trying to put their kids in a private school, high mortgage monthly payments. They don't want higher tax rates. You could lose NJ with Bernie.

Only way taxes would have gone up for people under $250k is if it was to pay for public healthcare. Many people who have been happy to accept that trade, even though it was unlikely at the time that could pass through congress.

It's fine if you don't like him or agree with his policies but there is no way to prove he could or could not have won against Trump. All we have is polling and Bernie was consistently more ahead on Trump compared to Hillary. When he dropped out, head to head he was up almost 14% on Trump when Hillary was up 7%. Does that translate into an automatic win? No, but Bernie had broad appeal and a populist approach outside of a party line that was working.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Only way taxes would have gone up for people under $250k is if it was to pay for public healthcare. Many people who have been happy to accept that trade, even though it was unlikely at the time that could pass through congress.

It's fine if you don't like him or agree with his policies but there is no way to prove he could or could not have won against Trump. All we have is polling and Bernie was consistently more ahead on Trump compared to Hillary. When he dropped out, head to head he was up almost 14% on Trump when Hillary was up 7%. Does that translate into an automatic win? No, but Bernie had broad appeal and a populist approach outside of a party line that was working.

Sorry you’re basing things on talking points. Theres no guarantee of what you said. I don’t know if no tax on tips or overtime will happen. Great talking points but no guarantee of realty. There’s plenty of reason to believe taxes could go up under a socialist for many people and it’s not a gamble most would take.

 

[Merge]

Sorry you’re basing things on talking points. Theres no guarantee of what you said. I don’t know if no tax on tips or overtime will happen. Great talking points but no guarantee of realty. There’s plenty of reason to believe taxes could go up under a socialist for many people and it’s not a gamble most would take.

And you’re basing things off fear mongering by calling him a socialist. He did not suggest public ownership of production which is what socialism actually is.

He just wanted the government to play a bigger role in certain aspects, like healthcare and education and to change tax rates for the wealthiest individuals to pay for it. No reason to believe that taxes would have gone up for the majority of Americans without Medicare for all passing.

YOU may not agree with those positions and YOU may not believe the public would have supported him on a general election ticket.
An argument no one can win outside of polling when he was running and he polled well against Trump.