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Meet our 2024 President

Not at all.

Just calling you out for making a sweeping conclusion without anything to back it up.

Your reply is a weak deflection.

Keep backing up. I can hear the beep beep beep.
 
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Did you even read the entire article or watch the piece or are your "Exhibits" going to pull out selective information?

I know you are a dyed in the wool Democrat, but this is pretty lame.
Oh I read the entire article and watched the videos and his comments. He fails leadership 101 when he tries to minimize what Trump did with withholding top secret documents and the attempt to cover it it up as process crimes. He tries to use process crimes as if that is some technicality that is some how de minimus. That’s being a fraud.

His defense of Trump against Being indicted for Jan 6, is a joke. His defense is that the DOJ anf FBI are corrupt and will shut them down. To compare the indictments to a third world country? This is why he is a fraud.

Defund the police. He wants to defund the FBI. I admit he is an excellent speaker and does have some legitimate and interesting opinions. But this is disqualifying. Do not be fooled by this fraud.

Exhibit 3
 
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Oh I read the entire article and watched the videos and his comments. He fails leadership 101 when he tries to minimize what Trump did with withholding top secret documents and the attempt to cover it it up as process crimes. He tries to use process crimes as if that is some technicality that is some how de minimus. That’s being a fraud.

His defense of Trump against Being indicted for Jan 6, is a joke. His defense is that the DOJ anf FBI are corrupt and will shut them down. To compare the indictments to a third world country? This is why he is a fraud.

Defund the police. He wants to defund the FBI. I admit he is an excellent speaker and does have some legitimate and interesting opinions. But this is disqualifying. Do not be fooled by this fraud.

Exhibit 3
lol…another rant. We all need to follow the Almighty cern…it’s okay to admit you are terminally partisan.
 
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lol…another rant. We all need to follow the Almighty cern…it’s okay to admit you are terminally partisan.
You can always count on Hall 85 calling posts rants that he cannot defend You wanted reasons why he is a fraud and I just presented the reasons why. Were you not one of the posters who were crazed that some low level Dem politicians called for defunding the police. And yes they should be bashed for that. But when it comes to a presidential candidates looking to get rid of the FBI, you say nothing. Lol. That’s being a Hypocrite.
 
You can always count on Hall 85 calling posts rants that he cannot defend You wanted reasons why he is a fraud and I just presented the reasons why. Were you not one of the posters who were crazed that some low level Dem politicians called for defunding the police. And yes they should be bashed for that. But when it comes to a presidential candidates looking to get rid of the FBI, you say nothing. Lol. That’s being a Hypocrite.
His position is to shut it down and replace it with an organization.
 
he’s not advocating getting rid of the FBI

He’s said it many times. "I didn't say defund the FBI. I said shut down the FBI and replace it with something new”

As well as all of the other 3 letter agencies he goes after.

He plays up the deep state stuff a bit too much for my taste.

He makes valid points on occasion but his solutions to a lot of them go a little crazy, like getting rid of 75% of government workers, getting rid of the FBI, not letting kids vote unless they pass a test etc… it all speaks to emotion that will be attractive to a lot of people on the right, but most of it is not realistic.
 
He’s said it many times. "I didn't say defund the FBI. I said shut down the FBI and replace it with something new”

As well as all of the other 3 letter agencies he goes after.

He plays up the deep state stuff a bit too much for my taste.

He makes valid points on occasion but his solutions to a lot of them go a little crazy, like getting rid of 75% of government workers, getting rid of the FBI, not letting kids vote unless they pass a test etc… it all speaks to emotion that will be attractive to a lot of people on the right, but most of it is not realistic.
My original point was that he is articulate, getting increased attention, can handle tough questions and is rising in the polls. I never said I was voting for him. I said I was intrigued and looking to see how he handles the debate which he has earned a spot.

CERN’s over the top fraud claims are obvious partisan name calling….is he nervous??? Lol
 
My original point was that he is articulate, getting increased attention, can handle tough questions and is rising in the polls. I never said I was voting for him. I said I was intrigued and looking to see how he handles the debate which he has earned a spot.

CERN’s over the top fraud claims are obvious partisan name calling….is he nervous??? Lol
It’s not over the top. I identified his ridiculous positions and brought them up here. Yes he is a fraud and I explained why. Partisan? Hardly. He is looking to defund the FBI imand that is so ridiculously stupid. This is not a serious presidential candidate. That is why he is a fraud. Yet there were posters like you intrigued by him because he can put together a sentence. Yet you ignore his positions on big issues.
 
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It’s not over the top. I identified his ridiculous positions and brought them up here. Yes he is a fraud and I explained why. Partisan? Hardly. He is looking to defund the FBI imand that is so ridiculously stupid. This is not a serious presidential candidate. That is why he is a fraud. Yet there were posters like you intrigued by him because he can put together a sentence. Yet you ignore his positions on big issues.
And another rant. Are you this arrogant in court?
 
If you think presenting facts is arrogance, then call me guilty. And yes, it works great in court.
If you think you presented facts, I can’t help you.

Maybe this will help. Here are his actual positions. I agree some and disagree with others.

https://www.vivek2024.com/america-first-2-0/

Funny you are the ONLY poster in this thread that calls him a “fraud”.
 
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He cannot piss on Trump and win the Republican primary. Any hopeful has to cater somewhat to the base. They’re a bit “passionate”.
 
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The federal government has 25+ separate investigation and intelligence organizations. Getting a handle on what they are doing is not a bad idea.
 
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The federal government has 25+ separate investigation and intelligence organizations. Getting a handle on what they are doing is not a bad idea.

Who says we don’t have a handle on what they are doing?
 
Who says we don’t have a handle on what they are doing?
Will let him answer but he has spent most of his career dealing with Federal and Local government agency surveillance and communication.
 
These agencies are highly siloed and territorial. Cooperation amongst them is generally lip service. There is redundancy and overlap. If you add in State and Local authorities it gets worse.
 
I would like to see a large scale consolidation to start off. Businesses and corporations are constantly consolidating why not government agencies.
 
I would like to see a large scale consolidation to start off. Businesses and corporations are constantly consolidating why not government agencies.

IMO, it is because they are not motivated by profit and innovation. They are motivated by power, maintaining and increasing budgets and organization size, maintaining and increasing salaries and benefits.
 
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I was hoping Tim Scott would get some backing from Republicans. I like him a lot. Gotta dump Trump if they want any chance of winning the Presidential election. Trump has lost independents and women but the crazy ass Trumpers will never give in. Zero chance he wins a general election. I also believe the Dems pull Biden out of the race at some point. Sununu is on to something.
 
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IMO, it is because they are not motivated by profit and innovation. They are motivated by power, maintaining and increasing budgets and organization size, maintaining and increasing salaries and benefits.

To be fair, I'm not sure a profit motive would be best for national defense and intelligence.
That's an area where sometimes you can't quantify ROI for some time.

I am sure you also know a lot of good people that work for some of those agencies which make a decent living but could easily be making far more if they went into the private sector who just like the idea of serving their country. I have a family member who meets that criteria.

I wouldn't argue there isn't waste and redundancy though. You'd know far more than I would there, so I wouldn't be opposed to having the proper oversight and leadership in place to streamline processes though. I just personally don't like the politicization that comes from politicians (in this case Vivek) that disparages thousands of government workers just because it will gain sympathy from people with an anti-government sentiment.
 
WAY more on DeSantis' site than Cryin' Christie.

Agreed. Also taking shots at Trump on losing money at his Casino's NOW is entirely absurd from Christie. As if he didn't realize that when he supported him for president?

I like when Christie speaks on the issues. I think he has a decent handle on and can speak intelligently about most issues, and I am attracted to his pragmatism... but his anti-Trump campaign has turned me off.
 
Agreed. Also taking shots at Trump on losing money at his Casino's NOW is entirely absurd from Christie. As if he didn't realize that when he supported him for president?

I like when Christie speaks on the issues. I think he has a decent handle on and can speak intelligently about most issues, and I am attracted to his pragmatism... but his anti-Trump campaign has turned me off.
It’s obvious he is taking one for the team. He’s taking the role of attack dog to go after Trump early in the primaries and then will drop out shortly there after. He has no shot, nor should he.
 
To be fair, I'm not sure a profit motive would be best for national defense and intelligence.
That's an area where sometimes you can't quantify ROI for some time.

I am sure you also know a lot of good people that work for some of those agencies which make a decent living but could easily be making far more if they went into the private sector who just like the idea of serving their country. I have a family member who meets that criteria.

I wouldn't argue there isn't waste and redundancy though. You'd know far more than I would there, so I wouldn't be opposed to having the proper oversight and leadership in place to streamline processes though. I just personally don't like the politicization that comes from politicians (in this case Vivek) that disparages thousands of government workers just because it will gain sympathy from people with an anti-government sentiment.
There actually should be a thorough review of every agency on an agreed upon interval (10 years?) as to it's charter, achievements, overlap, performance, etc. that allows for potential restructuring or elimination (with potential necessary functions absorbed by other agencies). No agency should have continue in perpetuity but there should be a review and decision process that is systematic and doesn't fit a politicians agenda.

I think back to the Department of Homeland Security when it was created and either 1) Did we really need it and/or 2) Was there overlap with other agencies and did we eliminate heads/cost or just add more cost?

Vivek is positioning and using his talking points like any other politician trying to move up in the polls. At the end of the day, the voters will either embrace or reject him.
 
There actually should be a thorough review of every agency on an agreed upon interval (10 years?) as to it's charter, achievements, overlap, performance, etc. that allows for potential restructuring or elimination (with potential necessary functions absorbed by other agencies). No agency should have continue in perpetuity but there should be a review and decision process that is systematic and doesn't fit a politicians agenda.

I think back to the Department of Homeland Security when it was created and either 1) Did we really need it and/or 2) Was there overlap with other agencies and did we eliminate heads/cost or just add more cost?

Vivek is positioning and using his talking points like any other politician trying to move up in the polls. At the end of the day, the voters will either embrace or reject him.
I am pretty sure that we need the FBI in perpetuity. Unless, we humans evolve into something that is completely unrecognizable to us now.

The amount of data and information and work that these intelligence agencies deal with is crushing. These agencies do an incredible job. So let's take the FBI For example, The FBI's work on the Gilgo Beach serial murder case was extraordinary. Most people have not a clue what was done with cell phone tower phone dumps. It was finding a needle in a haystack and the FBI did it. Yet, there are Presidential candidates that want to get rid of the FBI. It's laughable that people who have no clue what these agencies do but can talk about getting rid of them like it is some game. Moreover, I don't think you risk the security of the Homeland because you want to cut some costs to the federal government. These people are working hard to guarantee the safety of all of us. We should not take them for granted and think they are getting rich off the government.

Could there be some redundancy. maybe? I don't have a clue. You know who else doesn't have a clue, these candidates making these statements that if he was elected he will get rid of these agencies. But what better reason to have some redundancy for the safety of our country.
 
I am pretty sure that we need the FBI in perpetuity. Unless, we humans evolve into something that is completely unrecognizable to us now.
Does that not mean we should assess the various departments, objectives, overlaps with other agencies? Can it never be combined with other agencies if it makes sense?
The amount of data and information and work that these intelligence agencies deal with is crushing. These agencies do an incredible job. So let's take the FBI For example, The FBI's work on the Gilgo Beach serial murder case was extraordinary. Most people have not a clue what was done with cell phone tower phone dumps. It was finding a needle in a haystack and the FBI did it.
No one is saying they don't do good work...they are challenging some of the work that is done (and has been done) over time that is questionable and should be scrutinized.
Yet, there are Presidential candidates that want to get rid of the FBI. It's laughable that people who have no clue what these agencies do but can talk about getting rid of them like it is some game. Moreover, I don't think you risk the security of the Homeland because you want to cut some costs to the federal government. These people are working hard to guarantee the safety of all of us. We should not take them for granted and think they are getting rich off the government.
You misrepresent what I said as you usually do. I'm not "risking" Homeland Security, but it's also not right to give an agency carte blanche forever without questioning whether what they are currently doing is no longer relevant or could be done in another agency.

Because politicians never use extreme catch phrases like "Build a Wall" or "Defund the Police" ....so now you are holding one politician up to a standard that no one follows to make your point? Fail.
Could there be some redundancy. maybe? I don't have a clue. You know who else doesn't have a clue, these candidates making these statements that if he was elected he will get rid of these agencies. But what better reason to have some redundancy for the safety of our country.
 
To be fair, I'm not sure a profit motive would be best for national defense and intelligence.
That's an area where sometimes you can't quantify ROI for some time.

I am sure you also know a lot of good people that work for some of those agencies which make a decent living but could easily be making far more if they went into the private sector who just like the idea of serving their country. I have a family member who meets that criteria.

I wouldn't argue there isn't waste and redundancy though. You'd know far more than I would there, so I wouldn't be opposed to having the proper oversight and leadership in place to streamline processes though. I just personally don't like the politicization that comes from politicians (in this case Vivek) that disparages thousands of government workers just because it will gain sympathy from people with an anti-government sentiment.

Paragraph one: I did not say profit is necessarily the best motivator for such organizations. I said that the absence of profit as a motivator has consequences on organizational behavior.

I agree with your ROI comment and have lived through that. Example: How do you quantify the value of solving a murder case? We know there is value, but how do you quantify it? (Offered as a rhetorical question) ROI is often difficult to truly quantify in the private sector also.

Paragraph Two. I agree. The frontline people any organization are typically motivated by doing a good job, serving, obtaining some recognition, and putting food on the table. My comments are directed at the leadership and motivations of the organization. There is a huge difference between the world of the top leadership and that of the front line.

Paragraph three: There is always waste and redundancy in any organization and the larger it grows, the more you will find. There is a stark difference though in the motivations to eliminate waste in the public vs. private sectors. Generally, the public sector is motivated to spend their entire budget so they can request more. They are motivated to expand their organizations Public organizations are often penalized for saving money because they get their budgets cut.

If you look in the private sector you often see the same thing in the line vs staff orgazaions within a company. I worked at IBM in the 80s and witnessed the massive bloating of non-productive staffs. Staffs reporting to Staffs and producing nothing but cost. I went through a significant downsizing and reset at IBM. They came out of re-invented and stronger. I think that is the kind of thing he talking about.

As a similar example, look at what Musk did to Twitter. He cut 50% staff. He was told the systems would collapse. The system didn't skip a beat. Yes the ad revue is down but I don't think that was a function of his staff cuts. Jack Welch was famous for requiring 10% efficiency gains each year. Much of that was cutting the bottom 10% of performers.

Vivek seems to be proposing zero-based budgeting and mission on steroids. Note that he states that the necessary organizations should be rebuilt anew. I believe he has the FBI in that category. For organizations like the Department of Energy or Department of Education, I see the possibility that we would not skip a beat with the elimination of most or all of what they do. I do recognize the element of pollical drama that his claims contain.

A for myself, I am not anti government. I am anti big and wasteful government. I do believe the Federal government could do well with a bit of reset.
 
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Does that not mean we should assess the various departments, objectives, overlaps with other agencies? Can it never be combined with other agencies if it makes sense?

No one is saying they don't do good work...they are challenging some of the work that is done (and has been done) over time that is questionable and should be scrutinized.

You misrepresent what I said as you usually do. I'm not "risking" Homeland Security, but it's also not right to give an agency carte blanche forever without questioning whether what they are currently doing is no longer relevant or could be done in another agency.

Because politicians never use extreme catch phrases like "Build a Wall" or "Defund the Police" ....so now you are holding one politician up to a standard that no one follows to make your point? Fail.
Who says there is no oversight of these agencies? Congress has oversight of these agencies as well as there is some other agency in which Congress and the Executive Branch have joint responsibility for oversight. It is being done.

If not Congress or members of the executive branch, who is to have oversight?

As far as your last point goes, getting rid of the FBI is an extreme position to hold and dangerous one to even suggest. There are ideas out there that are so bad that it is disqualifying. So any politician who said defund police should never have a job in government and anyone suggesting to defund the FBI or get rid of the FBI should never hold power. Both equally stupid and ridiculous. I am not suggesting that FBI doesn't make mistakes. All law enforcement agencies make mistakes. After all wee are human. That is why we have criminal defense attorneys and the courts. We strive always to get better, but perfection is impossible. The FBI's work is extremely valuable and needed in this country. And no, I don't always agree with them. But I recognize they are needed.
 
Who says there is no oversight of these agencies? Congress has oversight of these agencies as well as there is some other agency in which Congress and the Executive Branch have joint responsibility for oversight. It is being done.

If not Congress or members of the executive branch, who is to have oversight?

As far as your last point goes, getting rid of the FBI is an extreme position to hold and dangerous one to even suggest. There are ideas out there that are so bad that it is disqualifying. So any politician who said defund police should never have a job in government and anyone suggesting to defund the FBI or get rid of the FBI should never hold power. Both equally stupid and ridiculous. I am not suggesting that FBI doesn't make mistakes. All law enforcement agencies make mistakes. After all wee are human. That is why we have criminal defense attorneys and the courts. We strive always to get better, but perfection is impossible. The FBI's work is extremely valuable and needed in this country. And no, I don't always agree with them. But I recognize they are needed.
I’ll make it easy for you. What Pirata just said.
 
Vivek is awesome. I don’t think he (or anyone) can overcome trump in this primary, but he will be a contender in 2028 for sure.
 
Who says we don’t have a handle on what they are doing?

I'd say on an individual agency basis, yes. I do not think anyone has a comprehensive handle on all 25+ and their interactions, overlaps, redundancies, and conflicts, etc.

The formation of DHS was intended to consolidate related functions that were disconnected. There was good intent but there was also a political component of its creation. I've been through my share of re-orgs. They are always pitched as the end all to right the ship but more often then not they create a period of chaos with winners and losers.
 
Vivek is awesome. I don’t think he (or anyone) can overcome trump in this primary, but he will be a contender in 2028 for sure.

I just don't understand why so many Republicans, the party of law and order, would vote for a criminal.

That said, I still don't believe Trump will be the nominee by this time next year at the convention.
 
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