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Mueller

There was nothing stopping him from stating that he thought Trump committed a crime.

It was in the report. I am not putting words in his mouth.

"but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes."

"Fairness concerns counseled against potentially reaching that judgment when no charges can be brought."

They applied an approach where they could not potentially result Trump was guilty.
I am honestly not sure how this can be any clearer for you.
 
Mueller: "We did not reach a determination as to whether the president committed a crime"

Could not be any clearer.
 
There was nothing stopping him from stating that he thought Trump committed a crime.

It was in the report. I am not putting words in his mouth.

"but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes."

"Fairness concerns counseled against potentially reaching that judgment when no charges can be brought."

They applied an approach where they could not potentially result Trump was guilty.
I am honestly not sure how this can be any clearer for you.

They certainly did that in volume one where they determine that he did not collude. Are you seriously saying that if they found out that he did collude that they wouldn't have reported it?

Trump 2020. You might as well resign yourself to it.
 
Mueller: "We did not reach a determination as to whether the president committed a crime"

Could not be any clearer.

Sigh... Because of the OLC opinion.
You're really being stubborn on this.
 
They certainly did that in volume one where they determine that he did not collude. Are you seriously saying that if they found out that he did collude that they wouldn't have reported it

Yes. They were able to say there was not sufficient evidence to indict Trump on a conspiracy charge in volume I.

They were not able to say the same thing in volume II.

"while the investigation identified numerous links between individuals with ties to the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges."

Why couldn't volume II have said "while the investigation identified numerous instances of attempts to impede or influence the investigation, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges."

We can have any opinion on why that is, but the fact is that Mueller would not have been able to say there was sufficient evidence to charge Trump with a crime. He explicitly stated as such in the report, and was consistent in that messaging in the hearing.

Here is where my opinion comes in.

If Mueller did not find evidence sufficient to charge the president with Obstruction of Justice, he would have said so and would have made no reference to the OLC opinion at all because it would not have been necessary. He did not cite the OLC in volume I because it was not applicable to volume I due to the lack of sufficient evidence.

Trump 2020. You might as well resign yourself to it.

I'm not sure what that has to do with this conversation other than another bad attempt at trolling.
 
I'm not sure what that has to do with this conversation other than another bad attempt at trolling.

It has much to about it.

You posts are skewed by your hatred for Trump and refusal to accept his election. I was just pointing out that he will win in 2020 and you if find the courage to accept that sooner or later, your postw might grow more reasonable..
 
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Why couldn't volume II have said "while the investigation identified numerous instances of attempts to impede or influence the investigation, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges."

We can have any opinion on why that is, but the fact is that Mueller would not have been able to say there was sufficient evidence to charge Trump with a crime. He explicitly stated as such in the report, and was consistent in that messaging in the hearing.

Here is where my opinion comes in.

If Mueller did not find evidence sufficient to charge the president with Obstruction of Justice, he would have said so and would have made no reference to the OLC opinion at all because it would not have been necessary. He did not cite the OLC in volume I because it was not applicable to volume I due to the lack of sufficient evidence.

I am somewhat in agreement with your opinion albeit with a slightly different take.

I agree there was no evidence of collusion and he (they) had to state that.

I believe there was borderline evidence of obstruction but they lacked the balls to say so and hid behind the OLC. To say they, (paraphrased) "we took an approach that would not lead to a determination of obstruction" was ridiculous.

Assuming you will pore over all my posts and cite where I said there was no evidence of obstruction, I will save you the trouble and amend it to say there was insufficient evidence for the gutless staff and Mueller to include. Instead the offered a BS argument that the design the investigation so that they could not conclude a crime was committed because we can't charge him. That is nonsense.

So in the end, Did Trump collude? No
Did he obstruct? In the strict sense. Hard to say, and so the prosecute took a ame way out.
Did he cooperate or did he imped? both
Did Trump push back? yes
Did the prosecutor stay away from doing anything with that because he is the President? Yes
Is that a president that will cave the justice system? No
Should he have? yes.

Keep in mind that this investigation was highly politically charged. The precise origins are debatable but there is not doubt the investigation was influenced by the Steele report and Hilary Clinton. We now know the depth of the political leanings and Trump-hate by the actually staff that did the work.

We have a sitting prettiness accused of a crime by his political rivals. It is a crime that he knows he did not commit. We prop up a figurehead who is senile-approaching Republican as the head of the investigation which is then actually done by a staff of political rivals. The president is pissed off and pushes the limits of obstruction.

The prosecutor of course finds out he is innocent of the primary charge and punts on the obstruction charge. He gives a lame and illogical excuse for his actions that flies in the face of hundreds of years of legal precedent, and then a la Pontius Pilate, he throws the whole matter over to the Democratic controlled House.

Parsing this post should keep you busy. I am outta here for today. Heading up to the Tricky Triangle (Pocono Raceway) to watch the NASCAR race. Scored a comp package in the suites, pit passes, Q&A with the drivers, radio headsets, the whole enchilada. Trying to see if Busch can three-peat. For the record, I prefer Indy cars and that fan base better but couldn't pass up on this deal.

Have a great day!
 
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It has much to about it.

You posts are skewed by your hatred for Trump and refusal to accept his election. I was just pointing out that he will win in 2020 and you if find the courage to accept that sooner or later, your post might grow more reasonable..

Sometimes, sure. This time, no.

Kind of like the Mueller report thread when I said that the Mueller report did not cover the counterintelligence investigation... You called that utter nonsense and I was proven to be correct in the hearing this week. On that, you lacked objectivity because you believe all of my posts can't possibly be true because I hate Trump.

Same as this thread. No matter what your opinion of me, the fact is that the OLC opinion states that the president cannot be indicted while in office. Mueller used that standard in volume II which means if he believed there was sufficient evidence to charge Trump, he would not have been able to state that. I have cited many examples of his language to support that.
 
Wanna hear a joke?

Bernie Sanders walks into a bar and says, "Free beer for everyone! .....who's paying?"
 
You realize if I posted an article like that about Trump, you would be calling me a conspiracy theorist again right?
Is that your way of ignoring the content of the article?
 
Is that your way of ignoring the content of the article?

Already gave my opinion on that earlier in this thread... But I think conservatives saw someone who stumbled a couple times in 5 hours and saw an opportunity to change the narrative and deflect from the content of the report.
 
Already gave my opinion on that earlier in this thread... But I think conservatives saw someone who stumbled a couple times in 5 hours and saw an opportunity to change the narrative and deflect from the content of the report.
Conservatives? The article from WAPO (hardly a conservative paper) quotes Democratic lawmakers and aides. Maybe try reading it before you comment.
 
I read it. Conservatives are pushing cognitive issues and saying he was not in charge of the investigation and Democrats said he had trouble hearing and acknowledge that he didn't want to testify and tried to testify behind closed doors.

Dems are upset he didn't deliver a knock out punch and republicans are upset because the report was bad.
 
I read it. Conservatives are pushing cognitive issues and saying he was not in charge of the investigation and Democrats said he had trouble hearing and acknowledge that he didn't want to testify and tried to testify behind closed doors.

Dems are upset he didn't deliver a knock out punch and republicans are upset because the report was bad.
Well than you have poor reading comprehension.
 
Mueller used that standard in volume II which means if he believed there was sufficient evidence to charge Trump, he would not have been able to state that. I have cited many examples of his language to support that.

Regardless of the OLC opinion had Trump committed a crime Mueller could have stated that in the report.
 
Regardless of the OLC opinion had Trump committed a crime Mueller could have stated that in the report.

Again, that is not correct. It is laid out very clearly in the report that because of the OLC opinion he could not come to a conclusion that the president committed a crime.

Why do you think he said the president could be charged once out of office?
 
I have to read it for you? Seriously?

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. Maybe I read something differently than you did so I asked so we could clear up the difference in our opinion.

Pretty much this entire thread is me doing that for others.
 
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You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. Maybe I read something differently than you did so I asked so we could clear up the difference in our opinion.

Pretty much this entire thread is me doing that for others.
Maybe a little introspection is in order.
 
Why do you think he said the president could be charged once out of office?

Because that is true. IF a president commits a crime he can be charged they are out of office.

For some reason you interpret that as Mueller saying he did commit a crime. It doesn't work that way.
 
Because that is true. IF a president commits a crime he can be charged they are out of office.

For some reason you interpret that as Mueller saying he did commit a crime. It doesn't work that way.

Not what I said. I said IF Mueller believed there was sufficient evidence to charge Trump with a crime, he would not be able to state that because of the OLC opinion. Holding Trump accountable IF he committed a crime could only happen once he is out of office.

"Charging the president with a crime was... not an option we could consider," Mueller stated at the time. "It would be unfair to potentially accuse somebody of a crime when there can be no court resolution of the actual charge."
 
The cost is probably nothing because of the Democrats push for open borders, healthcare for all, and a $15 minimum wage that Bernie is proving doesn’t work telling his workers they’ll make $15 but they have to work less hours lol. If the dems had normal policies lined up then the GOP should be worried.

The Bernie story is my favorite of the year so far. I don't support him or his policies. If we're going to play your game though...

The GOP should be worried plenty if you can see beyond the end of your nose. Unless you like pathological lying, unhinged ranting, racism spouting, rule of law trampling, and non-conservative values. The tariff wars threatens to hurt the stock market and slow the economy, which is showing signs of weakness. At least he's throwing billions at the farmers, because conservatives love socialism. Typically during great economic times the debt and deficit decrease. How we doing there? Oops.

Trump bends the knee to Putin while Moscow Mitch blocks legislation aimed to prevent what just happened in the 2016 election. Obstructing justice, violating the Emoluments Clause, openly denying Congressional oversight, phony national emergency, a hot mess of an administration, crony capitalism, attacking a real war hero (while being a dodger), etc. How many investigations into his misconduct are still going on? I could go on for a while here, but lets cut it short for the sake of time. Trump's pile of wrong is massive.

Those who outright supported him are likely to be politically toxic. Those that said nothing while cowering under their desks, will have to account for that. His poisonous personal brand is now the GOP brand. That's what Rs are stupidly and/or unwittingly selling to the voters of the future. That's going to be very difficult to overcome, especially as demographics in this country shift in favor of liberals. Traditional GOP states like Virginia, Colorado, and Nevada are likely turning blue. Texas will eventually as well. Good luck...
 
The Bernie story is my favorite of the year so far. I don't support him or his policies. If we're going to play your game though...

The GOP should be worried plenty if you can see beyond the end of your nose. Unless you like pathological lying, unhinged ranting, racism spouting, rule of law trampling, and non-conservative values. The tariff wars threatens to hurt the stock market and slow the economy, which is showing signs of weakness. At least he's throwing billions at the farmers, because conservatives love socialism. Typically during great economic times the debt and deficit decrease. How we doing there? Oops.

Trump bends the knee to Putin while Moscow Mitch blocks legislation aimed to prevent what just happened in the 2016 election. Obstructing justice, violating the Emoluments Clause, openly denying Congressional oversight, phony national emergency, a hot mess of an administration, crony capitalism, attacking a real war hero (while being a dodger), etc. How many investigations into his misconduct are still going on? I could go on for a while here, but lets cut it short for the sake of time. Trump's pile of wrong is massive.

Those who outright supported him are likely to be politically toxic. Those that said nothing while cowering under their desks, will have to account for that. His poisonous personal brand is now the GOP brand. That's what Rs are stupidly and/or unwittingly selling to the voters of the future. That's going to be very difficult to overcome, especially as demographics in this country shift in favor of liberals. Traditional GOP states like Virginia, Colorado, and Nevada are likely turning blue. Texas will eventually as well. Good luck...
Funny I caught a little bit of CNN today. As you said the GOP should have a lot to worry about. They quoted an independent voter saying I don’t like this and I don’t like that about Trump and republicans but my family is seeing tangible results and to me that’s all that matters. CNN was asking how do Democrat’s appeal to those people. The answer was they have to put together better policies. Right now despite all the issues on both sides the back and forth banter of you’re racist or you’re anti-America, the average person doesn’t care about any of that. The average person cares about how things are impacting their family.
 
Funny I caught a little bit of CNN today. As you said the GOP should have a lot to worry about. They quoted an independent voter saying I don’t like this and I don’t like that about Trump and republicans but my family is seeing tangible results and to me that’s all that matters. CNN was asking how do Democrat’s appeal to those people. The answer was they have to put together better policies. Right now despite all the issues on both sides the back and forth banter of you’re racist or you’re anti-America, the average person doesn’t care about any of that. The average person cares about how things are impacting their family.
Your last sentence hits the nail on the head. The economy and to a degree if there are any attacks/conflicts we are involved, will dictate which way the 2020 election goes. Everything else is noise that won’t move the needle.

When it comes to political discussions in public, I normally just observe and listen. The most frequent comment about Trump is “I don’t like <fill in the blank> about him but the economy is doing well and he’s making things happen.” We have over a thousand employees with over 80% being Hispanic or African American and you would be surprised to hear what they’re saying.

We are going to see a recession in the next 12-24 months...when it happens will decide the election.
 
I said IF Mueller believed there was sufficient evidence to charge Trump with a crime, he would not be able to state that because of the OLC opinion.

He could certainly say he thought he was guilty.

It would sound like this: "There is sufficient evidence to conclude that we believe the President committed a obstruction. However, we cannot recommend charging him because of OLC.

Your angst in this thread seems to be derived from people not agreeing with your assertion that a President can do whatever they want because of the OLC.

I just don't agree with that.
 
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He could certainly say he thought he was guilty.

It would sound like this: "There is sufficient evidence to conclude that we believe the President committed a obstruction. However, we cannot recommend charging him because of OLC.

Mueller disagrees with that.

 
Traditional GOP states like Virginia, Colorado, and Nevada are likely turning blue. Texas will eventually as well. Good luck...

Huh? Virginia, Nevada and Colorado have voted Democratic in the last three presidential elections. They are not traditional GOP states anymore and haven't been for over 10 years.

If I'm the Republicans, I'm worried about losing ground in Arizona and Georgia. Those are traditional GOP states.
 
Huh? Virginia, Nevada and Colorado have voted Democratic in the last three presidential elections. They are not traditional GOP states anymore and haven't been for over 10 years.

If I'm the Republicans, I'm worried about losing ground in Arizona and Georgia. Those are traditional GOP states.

They were purple/up for grabs and likely no longer are. The Ws weren’t slam dunks. I’d be more concerned with Texas. If CA, NY, & TX are true blue that’s 155 of 270 before a vote is cast.
 
Funny I caught a little bit of CNN today. As you said the GOP should have a lot to worry about. They quoted an independent voter saying I don’t like this and I don’t like that about Trump and republicans but my family is seeing tangible results and to me that’s all that matters. CNN was asking how do Democrat’s appeal to those people. The answer was they have to put together better policies. Right now despite all the issues on both sides the back and forth banter of you’re racist or you’re anti-America, the average person doesn’t care about any of that. The average person cares about how things are impacting their family.

Your last sentence hits the nail on the head. The economy and to a degree if there are any attacks/conflicts we are involved, will dictate which way the 2020 election goes. Everything else is noise that won’t move the needle.

If this was true, where’s the evidence supporting it? The 2018 elections were largely a referendum on Trump. Historically, an incumbent President in a good economy has a strong advantage, yet Trump remains quite unpopular. His approval rating has remained low and his net approval ratings in the Rust Belt are really bad. That shouldn’t be if what you gents are supposing. General Election polls are no better. Surveys conducted by his own campaign (and leaked) showed him trailing in virtually every swing state. Hence Trump’s hissy fit mid June.
While polls are far from perfect, why are they telling a vastly different story? Where is the supporting evidence?

Here’s an article from my morning reading that underscores my point.
https://apnews.com/e1d98f7567f947d49f698e3ee0f234a3

The good news for Trump supporters is that Democrats are fully capable of screwing this up.
 
If this was true, where’s the evidence supporting it? The 2018 elections were largely a referendum on Trump. Historically, an incumbent President in a good economy has a strong advantage, yet Trump remains quite unpopular. His approval rating has remained low and his net approval ratings in the Rust Belt are really bad. That shouldn’t be if what you gents are supposing. General Election polls are no better. Surveys conducted by his own campaign (and leaked) showed him trailing in virtually every swing state. Hence Trump’s hissy fit mid June.
While polls are far from perfect, why are they telling a vastly different story? Where is the supporting evidence?

Here’s an article from my morning reading that underscores my point.
https://apnews.com/e1d98f7567f947d49f698e3ee0f234a3

The good news for Trump supporters is that Democrats are fully capable of screwing this up.
Not opining on the conversation but the polls were completely wrong with the Hillary Trump election. Those polls are virtually the same now so hard to opine on accuracy - its all just fodder. And while Trump is not popular none of the Dems with the exception of Biden are popular enough either yet. In the end, I know a lot of folks that hated both candidates in multiple elections but voted based on where they see the Supreme Court going. That drives their vote even though they don't agree with either candidate. You can talk about all the other issues and popularity and polls all you want, but the Supreme Court nominations are the key to an election IMO.
 
Not opining on the conversation but the polls were completely wrong with the Hillary Trump election. Those polls are virtually the same now so hard to opine on accuracy - its all just fodder. And while Trump is not popular none of the Dems with the exception of Biden are popular enough either yet. In the end, I know a lot of folks that hated both candidates in multiple elections but voted based on where they see the Supreme Court going. That drives their vote even though they don't agree with either candidate. You can talk about all the other issues and popularity and polls all you want, but the Supreme Court nominations are the key to an election IMO.
I would agree that it's too early to draw any conclusions from polling information because we don't even know who the Dem candidate is. I think everyone agrees as well that it's going to come down to those 7-8 swing states. Pennsylvania is an interesting one in that outside of Philly and Pittsburgh, Trump carried the entire state last time. I could sense that support in normally supportive Dem areas like Scranton/W-B and it's even stronger now because the economy is doing well and Trump actually has a record now that there is support for.
 
Not opining on the conversation but the polls were completely wrong with the Hillary Trump election. Those polls are virtually the same now so hard to opine on accuracy - its all just fodder. And while Trump is not popular none of the Dems with the exception of Biden are popular enough either yet. In the end, I know a lot of folks that hated both candidates in multiple elections but voted based on where they see the Supreme Court going. That drives their vote even though they don't agree with either candidate. You can talk about all the other issues and popularity and polls all you want, but the Supreme Court nominations are the key to an election IMO.

Yet those polls were largely accurate in 08 and 12. What changed, comrade? o_O
The 16 election was an odd one. We had two very unpopular candidates (rightfully so). We don’t know to which extent Comey’s letter to Congress impacted voting/polling because of the timing. There was a strange phenomenon of the reluctant Trump voter - were they lying in polls? And lastly, we don’t know, and likely never will, how Russian interference impacted the election (swaying voters not changing votes).
 
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