Paris

[cernjSHU]

It is time for the civilized countries in the world to unite against ISIS. As much as I was against the war in Iraq, we must along with England, Germany, Spain, Italy, France, Russia and also Saudi Arabia and Turkey must have troops on the ground. We joined with Russia once before to defeat evil. It is time we do it again.

Troops must also come from muslim countries like Saudi Arabi, Jordan and Turkey. These muslim countries must fight against ISIS. Their refusal would be tacit approval and or support for ISIS. Time for us to unite.

 

[HALL85]

Agree cern. We need to wake-up and realize this is a major threat on a world wide basis. ISIS needs to be completely eliminated and it needs to be a joint effort. Personally, I will be paying very close attention as to how each candidate addresses this threat.

 

[Seton75]

Punishing restrictions should come down on the problem countries. If good people suffer, so be it. I am talking economic and immigration. The good people have to stop the bad ones from branding a religion as dangerous. It is on them to get things righted. Time for us to stop being sensitive to hurt feelings. Technology and easy access to weapons makes it too easy for some crazed knucklehead to kill. And the Saudi royals who fund so much terror mongering have to be called out too.

 

[SPK145]

Agree with all posts in this thread. This is another wake up call for the U.S. and others.

I'm not a fan of France and they have allowed radical muslims to infiltrate their society but this was just terrible, my thoughts and prayers go out to them.

Still, a huge wake-up call.

 

[Section112]

Seton 75 has it right.

We have to get smarter about immigration. This country cannot seem to have an adult conversation about it. There are some very problematic issues I see with the current refugee crisis and we have promised to take a lot of them and I cannot understand why. I saw a statistic where it said 72% of the refugees are men. I cannot remember in history when there was not a large percentage of women and children in any refugee crisis. Something is very wrong with this whole situation and there will be ISIS folks sprinkled in. As countries muslim populations have grown it has lead to significant problems with that population. We also need to really step-up our efforts here within the US to protect our people. That is a role I believe is in fact Government's responsibility instead of all the other meaningless crap they have their hands all over. Focus on the real problems.

I also blame the current and last administration. Why do we continue to try and make regime change (Iraq for Bush and Syria for Obama) - it just creates a vacuum and folks like ISIS move in. And why the hell do we continue to give arms to anyone when it always backfires on us just about every time? We just need to get smarter and stop trying to please everyone and protect America.

 

[HALL85]

ABC just reported that one of the terrorists came through Greece with the Syrian refugees. Wake up people.

 

[cernjSHU]

Seton 75 has it right.

I also blame the current and last administration. Why do we continue to try and make regime change (Iraq for Bush and Syria for Obama) - it just creates a vacuum and folks like ISIS move in. And why the hell do we continue to give arms to anyone when it always backfires on us just about every time? We just need to get smarter and stop trying to please everyone and protect America.

One of the best decisions George H Bush ever made was not to take to march in to Bagdad and take Sadam Hussein our of power. Why we as Americans that took over 200 years to really have a decent form of democracy expect these people form countries like Afghanistan and Egypt to embrace democracy is a joke. Sometimes, you just need a strongman in these countries to keep order and to secure our national interests. This is the difference between theory and reality.

 

[SnakeTom]

Seton 75 has it right.


I also blame the current and last administration. Why do we continue to try and make regime change (Iraq for Bush and Syria for Obama) - it just creates a vacuum and folks like ISIS move in. And why the hell do we continue to give arms to anyone when it always backfires on us just about every time? We just need to get smarter and stop trying to please everyone and protect America.

I absolutely agree. ISIS has declared war on us & we must respond but not with an instant poorly thought out response as we have done so many times in the past. As to all the refugees fleeing Syria I certainly can understand their problem but how do we know that some of those refugees fleeing are not ISIS supporters infiltrating into countries to perform terrorist attacks.As far as Sect 112's comment on us supporting regime changes in the name of democracy, this has frequently been against our best interests. We can not force democracy on anyone. What we want and need are friendly governments not necessarily democratic ones. Ask your selves are we better off now that Saddam is gone or that Assad is on the ropes. I think not.

Tom K

 

[SnakeTom]

One of the best decisions George H Bush ever made was not to take to march in to Bagdad and take Sadam Hussein our of power. Why we as Americans that took over 200 years to really have a decent form of democracy expect these people form countries like Afghanistan and Egypt to embrace democracy is a joke. Sometimes, you just need a strongman in these countries to keep order and to secure our national interests. This is the difference between theory and reality.

When it came to foreign policy George H.W. Bush was a master. Unfortunately our past two Presidents did not learn from him.

Tom K

 

[shu09]

Kneejerk reactions are perfectly normal and natural in the immediate aftermath of tragedy and horror. But US troops on the ground in Iraq and Syria will only make the problem worse. The scourge of terrorism is nearly impossible to defeat because of the ideology behind it. There will always be some crackpot nutty radical out there with a band of followers who do this stuff.

I do agree that it's high time that all of the nations of the western and civilized world unite against this common enemy. That must include sharing intelligence and monitoring activities with each other at a minimum. It astounds me that this does not happen to the extent it should. We meddle with Russia in Ukraine and think that is an important issue when it really is not given the enemy that we and the Russians both face. Think about that. We'd rather slap sanctions on Russia and interfere in Eastern Europe (resulting in the worst relations in 25 years) than unite with them to share intelligence and fight the terrorists. Heck, we even give them grief about their involvement in Syria when our strategy of toppling Middle East strongmen has not proven to work, no matter how evil those dictators may be. All of this is due to alliances, which our famous founding fathers warned us about.

We need a new direction in counter-terrorism policy. I believe that should include a coalition of all civilized nations sharing intelligence and contributing to air strikes in the region. What I'm baffled about is the way we conduct airstrikes. Why do we selectively target individuals rather than infrastructure and command and control bases? It's great that we target and assassinate selected individuals as it is a good thing when any terrorist can no longer walk this earth (such as in the airstrike earlier in the week), but all that does is reek of revenge and blood thirst. There is no concrete policy behind that.

US troops on the ground will make matters worse, especially with no concrete policy to back them up. All that will lead to is more of our young men and women becoming casualties in another Middle East war and more of them being captured and held hostage, often resulting in the barbaric, grisly and inhumane end to life that we see far too often in this region. I don't know if we can stomach more of that.

 

[HALL85]

IMO the only way to deal with ISIS is as follows:
1- multinational approach including U.S., Russia, Europe and Arab countries.
2-there needs to be a strategy, including end goal and how each participant will collaborate.
3- there needs to be limited public information throughout. No details of leaders being taken out, no embedded reporters, no "counts" of ISIS deaths, no need to report which cities are under control, etc.
4- there needs to be some level of boots on the ground but this is an unconventional war that will have to be fought covertly. I don't think we're talking thousands of troops, but this advertising 50 advisors in Syria is ludicrous.
5-The most important metric for success, is that these terrorist attacks will be eliminated. If they are not happening and you know the strategy is working.

The best example I can make of this is if anyone has seen the movie Munich. The response by the Israelis over a period of time was calculated, unadvertised, brutal and effective. No PR about Jihad John being killed, or drone strikes, or that we have ISIS contained.

 

[Seton75]

IMO the only way to deal with ISIS is as follows:
1- multinational approach including U.S., Russia, Europe and Arab countries.
2-there needs to be a strategy, including end goal and how each participant will collaborate.
3- there needs to be limited public information throughout. No details of leaders being taken out, no embedded reporters, no "counts" of ISIS deaths, no need to report which cities are under control, etc.
4- there needs to be some level of boots on the ground but this is an unconventional war that will have to be fought covertly. I don't think we're talking thousands of troops, but this advertising 50 advisors in Syria is ludicrous.
5-The most important metric for success, is that these terrorist attacks will be eliminated. If they are not happening and you know the strategy is working.

The best example I can make of this is if anyone has seen the movie Munich. The response by the Israelis over a period of time was calculated, unadvertised, brutal and effective. No PR about Jihad John being killed, or drone strikes, or that we have ISIS contained.

Yeah. Agree. Two libs like Tom and I on same page as 85.

 

[HALL85]

Yeah. Agree. Two libs like Tom and I on same page as 85.

There is hope

 

[cernjSHU]

I am watching Morning Joe this morning and John McCain and Lindsey Graham are on talking about ISIS. Here is why we have problems in the US in getting anything done. They both wanted US involvement with troops on the ground with a coalition of our allies. So far so good. They also have the audacity to say that Russia and Iran cannot take a part of this. Really??????? You expect a country that had a plane blown up by ISIS not to participate in this battle. The Republicans are off the wall

Syria needs to be split up and Assad unfortunately will have to stay due to Russia's involvement. But the US and its allies can demand that territory for the Kurds and Yazidis should be carved out of Syria and Iraq.

 

[HALL85]

I am watching Morning Joe this morning and John McCain and Lindsey Graham are on talking about ISIS. Here is why we have problems in the US in getting anything done. They both wanted US involvement with troops on the ground with a coalition of our allies. So far so good. They also have the audacity to say that Russia and Iran cannot take a part of this. Really??????? You expect a country that had a plane blown up by ISIS not to participate in this battle. The Republicans are off the wall

Syria needs to be split up and Assad unfortunately will have to stay due to Russia's involvement. But the US and its allies can demand that territory for the Kurds and Yazidis should be carved out of Syria and Iraq.

I agree that a solution must include Russia and the Arab nations, but I don't think it's fair to lump McCain and Graham (who I think are also wrong) with the entire Republican party. Would you judge Bernie Sanders comments as the thinking of the Democratic party?

 

[cernjSHU]

I agree that a solution must include Russia and the Arab nations, but I don't think it's fair to lump McCain and Graham (who I think are also wrong) with the entire Republican party. Would you judge Bernie Sanders comments as the thinking of the Democratic party?

Well, I view McCain as probably the most capable Republican. However, his sentiments about Russia not playing a part were also echoed by Bush. I do not consider Carson a capable candidate so I ignore him. The Republican establishment has that neo-con view of the world. Not all but most.

While Hitler was killing 6 million Jews, we joined forces with Stalin who was in the midst of killing 12 million of his own people. Yes, I also find it distasteful to deal with Putin. But sometimes you have to deal with the taste the bitter in order to rid ourselves of a greater danger.

 

[Section112]

We should partner with the Russians in this endeavor for sure. The problem is that will get in the way of Obama administration's need to make regime change in Syria. They need to give it up. McCain is a "has been" and his views are not respected by most anymore. He is a war hawk IMO and right there with Bush.

 

[Merge]

IMO the only way to deal with ISIS is as follows:
1- multinational approach including U.S., Russia, Europe and Arab countries.
2-there needs to be a strategy, including end goal and how each participant will collaborate.
3- there needs to be limited public information throughout. No details of leaders being taken out, no embedded reporters, no "counts" of ISIS deaths, no need to report which cities are under control, etc.
4- there needs to be some level of boots on the ground but this is an unconventional war that will have to be fought covertly. I don't think we're talking thousands of troops, but this advertising 50 advisors in Syria is ludicrous.
5-The most important metric for success, is that these terrorist attacks will be eliminated. If they are not happening and you know the strategy is working.

The best example I can make of this is if anyone has seen the movie Munich. The response by the Israelis over a period of time was calculated, unadvertised, brutal and effective. No PR about Jihad John being killed, or drone strikes, or that we have ISIS contained.

I agree on all points.

 

[HALL85]

I agree on all points.

Now the question is, which Presidential candidate on either side will have the same view? I doubt Trump will....lol

 

[cernjSHU]

Very disappointing to hear Obama say that putting troops on the ground will be a mistake. He is so PC not to offend anyone that he is completely ineffective. France gave him the opportunity to say with this latest development we are re-evaluating our options. How in the world is he going to get the Saudi's, Turks and other Muslim countries to commit troops to the fight ISIS when he won't?

 

[SnakeTom]

I do admire John McCain but I do not think there is any war that he did not approve of. In this situation we should not rush into any knee jerk reaction. We've done that too much. The invasion of Iraq is a perfect example. We should review all potential responses and have a well thought out plan and that plan must include Russia. They are victims of ISIS just as much as we are and the other European nations. To defeat ISIS will require the efforts and alliance of both Russia and the USA.

Tom K

 

[Seton75]

Very disappointing to hear Obama say that putting troops on the ground will be a mistake. He is so PC not to offend anyone that he is completely ineffective. France gave him the opportunity to say with this latest development we are re-evaluating our options. How in the world is he going to get the Saudi's, Turks and other Muslim countries to commit troops to the fight ISIS when he won't?

I don't know how he can make them commit troops, but this is a helluva bigger problem for them than us and they should have to stand up and fight. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Some day we have to learn a lesson. McCain wants the military to have free reign. Sadly, if they did, JFK would not have been assassinated we may have never seen The Beatles.

The statesman in the room has to understand that we have to avoid the chest-bumping, prideful posturing and fears that let the murder of a minor royal to lead to a continental bloodbath.

Go watch this year's first episode of Homeland. Listen to Quinn's answers to the CIA about Syria.

 

[shu09]

Very disappointing to hear Obama say that putting troops on the ground will be a mistake. He is so PC not to offend anyone that he is completely ineffective. France gave him the opportunity to say with this latest development we are re-evaluating our options. How in the world is he going to get the Saudi's, Turks and other Muslim countries to commit troops to the fight ISIS when he won't?

It certainly wasn't an inspiring statement, but he's right about troops on the ground. Would be a massive blunder, similar to the invasion of Iraq 12 years ago.

 

[HALL85]

I agree with Tom and that this is no time for a knee-jerk reaction. You need to be measured and planful in your response because it really is a long-term strategy. I think the right answer would've been to say we are committed to eliminating ISIS and all options are on the table.

 

[Section112]

I'm not a Trump fan at all but its funny that he has been saying for months to destroy their oil operation because that cuts off a big part of their funding. And today after the Paris atrocity we finally bomb the oil trucks and part of the oil operation in Syria.

Just shows we were half foot in and half foot out. Well now I think we and our allies have to be all in.

 

[cernjSHU]

I do admire John McCain but I do not think there is any war that he did not approve of. In this situation we should not rush into any knee jerk reaction. We've done that too much. The invasion of Iraq is a perfect example. We should review all potential responses and have a well thought out plan and that plan must include Russia. They are victims of ISIS just as much as we are and the other European nations. To defeat ISIS will require the efforts and alliance of both Russia and the USA.

Tom K

This is in no way a comparison to Iraq. I was completely against invading Iraq. There was no connection to 9/11 despite what President Bush was pushing and the UN inspectors could find no evidence of weapons of mass destruction. There was no threat to US security or interest posed by Saddam Hussein

On the contrary, ISIS has killed Americans and have now threatened to attack us. Our country is completely vulnerable to suicide attacks no matter how good our intelligence. And this needs to be an international force comprised of many countries including Muslim countries like the Saudi's, Jordan and Turkey.

 

[Seton75]

We will always be susceptible to suicide attacks. We can invade with 500k troops and level their strongholds, and some person can still strap on the belt and blow up 50 people. How do we kill this sect's thinking. It is not new and has been part of islamic thinking for centuries. The idea that you rape the women of your enemies...that the endgame is a world without infidels...that is our enemy, fueled by selling oil and making millions. Trump is nutty. But taking the oil away has to happen. We have to kill these guys and try to get the places they now dominate back to normal. But after all are dead.,the teachings of wahabism will still be there and our so called allies, Saudi Arabia, build mosques where the teachings continue. The idea has to be killed by muslims. I don't know of a precedent for this kind of thinking tied too a significant religion.

 

[Merge]

Go watch this year's first episode of Homeland. Listen to Quinn's answers to the CIA about Syria.

Yep! It is eerie how real this season feels.
"Pound Raqqa into a parking lot" - France seems to be following Quinn's advice.

"Tell me what the strategy is and I'll tell you if it's working" - One of my favorite lines from the show.

 

[SnakeTom]

Hey guys you can't keep doing this to me. I'm still a season behind & have three more episodes in Season 4 before I can start this years episodes. I just finished the episode where Carry & Sol's caravan were bombed while the Talaban is sneaking into the Embassy thu a tunnel. Stop with the spoilers-lol.

Tom K

 

[Merge]

Haha... Sorry Tom!

Such a damn good scene though.

 

[Seton75]

Yep! It is eerie how real this season feels.
"Pound Raqqa into a parking lot" - France seems to be following Quinn's advice.

"Tell me what the strategy is and I'll tell you if it's working" - One of my favorite lines from the show.

View embedded media

And this article is worth reading too.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html

Back to that clip. Quinn. Baddest guy on the planet!!

 

[cernjSHU]

Holy shit. That clip is precient!

 

[SnakeTom]

OK I have no will power so I watched the clip (Hmm I guess Sol survived the attack-lol). Yes that is a great scene and very applicable to what is now happening in real life.

TK

 

[NYShoreGuy]

It is time for the civilized countries in the world to unite against ISIS. As much as I was against the war in Iraq, we must along with England, Germany, Spain, Italy, France, Russia and also Saudi Arabia and Turkey must have troops on the ground. We joined with Russia once before to defeat evil. It is time we do it again.

Troops must also come from muslim countries like Saudi Arabi, Jordan and Turkey. These muslim countries must fight against ISIS. Their refusal would be tacit approval and or support for ISIS. Time for us to unite.

there is a raid this morning in saint-denis inside a building, the usa allowed isis to grow...what do you think happens when you go into a nation (iraq) to reprogram their government and political leadership by deposing and killing off the hussein family and ridding the ba'ath party? there is such a schism is iraq between the sects of muslims that this was inevitable and unlike al-queda now isis has money because they can steal and sell oil very easily; what does needs to happen is that you need aerial coverage with ground tactical plans led by a multi nation coalition; isis can too easily attack soft targets, sport events, shops outside restaurants, entertainment halls; a real issue is this, i don't think many open minding muslim or arab nations want to be involved; i dont think the throne or the mighty people of saudi arabia want to be involved because they have their daily money from the oil trade

the real issue is this, you have terrible fallout in syria, good people that want to have peace and a chance at a better life but are in poverty and oppressed are trying to leave or have left and there is not an open door policy towards them and much like most of western european countries, some in the usa treat these muslim refugees looking down on them

now in usa you virtually have every state with a R gov saying they don't want refugees and a D pres of usa saying the foundation of this country is built on welcoming of peace minded folk regardless of religious affiliation; the republican party needs help at the core and dec 15 debate should be interesting

also in general are the highest levels of intel being shared among usa french, british german and belgian agencies?


i think the world sees the usa as a very self-serving country based on many foreign relation implementations post wwII

chose to be in korea and vietnam in order to suppress the growth of communism and ultimately failed causing massive loss of usa lives plus mucho money spent and invested

in late 70s, early 80s when it was convenient to politically support iraq, hussein (ba'ath) vs iran based on hostage fallout they did so, fast forward to 90/91 iraq invades kuwait, un gives deadline for iraq to voluntarily leave kuwait or else and then or else happens

also selected interjection with fallout in other geo-political scenarios in africa, europe and asia

 

[cernjSHU]

Very disturbing scene at the Greece Turkey soccer match. A moment of silence for the Paris victims was supposed to take place at the stadium in Istanbul. Yet, a huge amount of hissing and chants of "aalah akbar " can easily be heard. http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/paris-soccer-fans-turkey/index.html

I am afraid that a much bigger percentage of Muslims of the world support what is called "radical Islam." What if what is called "radical Islam" is just really Islam? If a "moderate" Muslim nation like Turkey has so many people who could be so disgusting during a moment of silence for the victims of Paris, what does this really say about Islam? Are we facing a showdown between the West and the nations of Islam?

I have said in the first post of this thread. If we do not see Muslim countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Jordan take up arms against ISIS, then that means that the governments of those countries tacitly approve what is going on.

 

[Seton75]

I am not judging the UK based on their soccer fans. But that is really disconcerting.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Very disturbing scene at the Greece Turkey soccer match. A moment of silence for the Paris victims was supposed to take place at the stadium in Istanbul. Yet, a huge amount of hissing and chants of "aalah akbar " can easily be heard. http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/paris-soccer-fans-turkey/index.html

I am afraid that a much bigger percentage of Muslims of the world support what is called "radical Islam." What if what is called "radical Islam" is just really Islam? If a "moderate" Muslim nation like Turkey has so many people who could be so disgusting during a moment of silence for the victims of Paris, what does this really say about Islam? Are we facing a showdown between the West and the nations of Islam?

I have said in the first post of this thread. If we do not see Muslim countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Jordan take up arms against ISIS, then that means that the governments of those countries tacitly approve what is going on.

sects of muslims don't get along, my pov why doesn't a well to do arab/muslim nation like saudi arabia help out with the refugees and choose to interject? they are cashing millions per day in oil dealing and could care less

 

[cernjSHU]

Why is President Obama downplaying the threat of ISIS? I don't understand this guy. He has been an ineffective leader and his Presidency could not come to an end soon enough.

On the other hand, the Republican rhetoric led by Trump, Bush and Ted Cruz is frightening. Where have our leaders gone?

If anyone actually listens to what the candidates say instead of John Wayne bravado, it is clear that Clinton provides the only reasonable and balanced voice on this issue.

 

[Seton75]

And the Republican candidates won't even say that loophole that allows terrorists to buy guns should be closed. Trump can't get any more insane. Till next week. The fear of the right wing base is not a good thing for that grand old party.

 

[Section112]

Why is President Obama downplaying the threat of ISIS? I don't understand this guy. He has been an ineffective leader and his Presidency could not come to an end soon enough.

On the other hand, the Republican rhetoric led by Trump, Bush and Ted Cruz is frightening. Where have our leaders gone?

If anyone actually listens to what the candidates say instead of John Wayne bravado, it is clear that Clinton provides the only reasonable and balanced voice on this issue.

If this article if half true, it is an indication at how committed Obama and the White House have been to getting rid of ISIS. Not very much. Why haven't they gone after their oil operation until now? More interested in getting rid of Assad who is no threat to us. Ridiculous how bad of a President he has turned out to be. Repeating the same stuff as the last guy - how ironic. http://thefreethoughtproject.com/wh...ning-bombing-oil-tankers/#xVMSgCMO4M31iM4g.99