Dawes was out of control most of the night.Again,we don't have a true pass first point guard.
Player Rotations
- Thread starter Piratz
- Start date
Less Ndefo and more Samuel and Dre Davis.
And maybe we'll lose a bunch of games. It's a new program.
The SPU tournament run was a fluke until proven otherwise. It was great but let's call it what it was. Good on Shaheen for accomplishing it. Nobody can take that away from him.
That has nothing to do with this year's team which is very much a work in progress. We're a long way from being where we need to be. Wednesday was a bad matchup for us and Iowa is a solid team.
Sha has already complained some about the schedule. I don't think he's thrilled about having at least four P6 games on the non-conference schedule.
Also, he killed -- at least for this year and maybe for good -- the Iona game at MSG, likely because he didn't want another non-home game.
Agree that it is no time to panic and the team is a work in progress.
Disagree that it is a new program. We are an established and successful program; we just have a new coach.
St. P's run was not a fluke, They got very good and hot at the right time. And
Disagree that it is a new program. We are an established and successful program; we just have a new coach.
St. P's run was not a fluke, They got very good and hot at the right time. And
.... [sorry] ... And Shaheen, we all agree, was a great hire if not yet a great coach. Not ready to be anointed yet as the second coming of Kevin Willard though.
Big part of the early lack of cohesion is the transfers coming with their already established styles and some past success.
Big part of the early lack of cohesion is the transfers coming with their already established styles and some past success.
Not that it matters much now, but think you made right choice in valuing objectivity over access. Other than the occasional Willard laugher in post-game, active coach and player interviews tend to be a snooze fest. Heard Grant B. on one of your (former) competitors and, nice as he may be, don’t think he said a single thing of interest.
I thought Amir getting 31 minutes was a bit much. He was off last night and played too much ISO. And sitting Tyrese so long was frustrating. I kept yelling where's Tyrese??
Giving Sha the same benefit of the doubt I always gave Willard. It's possible Sha was demanding something out of Tyrese last night and Tyrese wasn't doing what Sha wanted. Game 3 is a good time to send a message when I demand something on the court it's in the best interest of the team and if you don't want to do it I'll find someone else.
It’s possible, I’m not there. Holloway acknowledged he lost track of time and should’ve had Samuel back in the game during the postgame presser. That would be some protection of a player; possible, sure, but idk how likely. It also seems odd (and alarming) Sha would lose track like that, but it does happen with coaches.
I also wonder if this is the case, what more he could’ve wanted? Samuel put up 9 points and 8 rebounds in 14 minutes and was a presence defensively. They second he was out Iowa feasted in the lane. The game was totally different with him in. He was active, intense, moving well. So idk.
I agree that it would odd and alarming he forgot he had a big guy like Samuel on the bench as they scored at will in the paint or got the ball in the paint for kick outs. I can picture Sha calling out the team, but not an individual player to the media. I think player protection will happen in the interview. It's going to be more straight forward than the schedule is the issue, but I don't see him calling out a player very often.
Tae Davis is going to be great but got a little to much time yesterday in crunch timec as well
Going to be interesting to watch. New dynamic.
Speaking of, He was pretty frank about Kadary. Reminds me a little of how it was between Amaker and Holloway when TA came in. Nowhere near a call out to me, but hopefully Kadary finds his motor, that’s on him.
"Kadary had a stretch in the second half where he drilled the ball (attacking the rim) three straight times; he’s got to do that a lot," Holloway said. "There’s no reason for him not doing that all the time, he’s supposed to be the guy on our team. Second team all-Big East, he’s got to learn to take the game over. And I think this is us learning each other."
You're right nowhere near a call out. In fact it was more of a praise to what Kadary can do. Calling a player out for not doing their job and saying a guy did something good, we need more of it are 2 completely different things.
To be fair to Jackson he's playing out of position but a guy with his gifts has to give us more if we have any hope of being good. Still way to inconsistent..
I'm not sure Tyrese did anything last night to warrant having a message sent other than picking up his second foul. That came immediately after the questionable charge against him and came on a play where he stepped out 20 feet from the basket.
Given, at the moment, he's our most effective big on both ends of the floor, he needed to be out there more than he was. Likewise it seemed like Harris sat for a long stretch in the second half and he was probably our best guard last night.
I agree with the thought that game three is a good time to send a message, even against a quality opponent. I'm just not sure one needed to be sent.
Watching the game last night I was keeping my eye on Kooks. He seems to still be like he is standing in mud for a lot of the game. But when he puts his mind to it he can score or draw fouls at will. I don’t get it. I just remember the UConn game when it was like he was a man possessed. I don’t know how
The announers were saying Sha made a comment that Tyrese is just a really nice young man and sometimes that nice young man is on the court. He needs Tyrese to play with an edge. Maybe in practice he's seen Tyrese playing harder and he wasn't getting what he wanted last night. Maybe Sha just missed it, but I don't believe that for one second. And if Sha missed it, 3 assistant coaches didn't say we got this big guy on the bench? When we went into the huddle at each TV timeout nobody noticed the 6'10" guy standing behind the chairs?
We were just very spoiled here with coach Willard. I remember not too long ago when the Rock was rocking and we beat Texas and Rutgers. I don't remember leaving the rock losing by 16.
Does he? It's been nearly six years. February 18, 2017, against Villanova 92-70.
We lost by 16 or more at the Rock three times in Willard's 12 years.
The last non-conference loss of that margin was Gonzo's infamous last game -- 87-69 against Texas Tech on March 16, 2010.
Hell, Gonzo lost more games by 16 or more in Newark in three years (four) than Willard did in 12.
So because it wasn’t at the Rock we don’t count the embarrassment at Walsh last year losing by 21 to SJU, when it wasn’t even that close.
Or the following game vs Marquette, when we lost by a final score of 10 but trailed by 19 with just over 6 minutes to play.
Or how about 3 years ago when we lost to Xavier by 12 while we were ranked 10th in the country and allowed them to jump out to a 30-6 lead.
Willard was 49-55 in games decided by 10+ or more Vs power 6 schools.
15 of those 49 wins (30%) were against DePaul or Georgetown.
5 of those losses ended our season in the NCAA or BET tournament.
In P6 games decided by 20+ or more he was 9-16. With his most recent and notable loss of 27 to TCU in his farewell performance.
His average margin of defeat in the NCAA tournament was 13.8 ppg.
Amazing how we can find a way to spin the narrative to tell the story we want. Let’s measure embarrassing home efforts by the final margin of 16+ only. 🤦♂️
Last edited:
I think he’s even more than our best big, he’s our best and most important player. He’s a matchup nightmare and is playing with a ton of determination.
Holloway knows it too. Why he goes to him at the start of every game.
Ref's were biased BG 10, 33 ft's for Iowa, 13 ft's for SHU along with SHU players in foul problems. Iowa coach was dropping F bombs to ref's all game with no T's. Why was the IOwa coach not T'd up?
Putting put a point value on it as 10+ could be deceiving as well. Battling a Nova and being down 4 then free throws make 10 is that embarrassing? I think every program has their embarrassing moments whether it's Kentucky losing in OT to SPU or getting us getting blown out by SJU at Walsh. Slice it however you want, Willard is the second best coach we've had in the last 60 years. And as to how he left, he left in the NCAA tournament.
That was my whole point of the response.
You can’t say “I don’t remember walking out of the arena losing by 16”. Its arbitrary and not representative of what really happened on that particular night.
What is more embarrassing, getting blown out by a certain score or blowing a lead you shouldn’t have and losing? Should the number be 12 or 14, or is it embarrassing every time you lose to DePaul, or to a below .500 conference opponent when you are fighting to get a bid? It's all arbitrary is the point.
Willard is clearly our second best coach in the last 60 years, but honestly that isn’t a free pass for me. The man had plenty of success, but equally similar amounts of failure. I thought in one of our final episodes we painted that picture fairly. And I don’t mean the first half of his tenure Vs his second. Ask yourself, what was this roster going to look like this year if Willard had stayed? No one has ever really talked about where the direction the program was heading with the roster he left in the locker room. He delayed a significant rebuild by bringing back Cale / Aiken one more year.
I just will never be in the group that wants to build a statue for the man.
The man left the program in 100 times better shape than he found it and that might be an understatement. The direction of the program was 6 NCAA tournament type seasons in 7 years. And it might have been 7 in 7 if we had any clue how the previous year was going to go, but he went aggressive and played about as many quality teams in a short span as possible.
As far as this years roster that's an unknown hypothetical. Willard hasn't been terrible in the transfer market and from 3 games in, I'm not mistaking any of our transfers for gamechangers like Powell or Whitehead. There's always the question could he and Grant have convinced Ike to stay? A lot of players move on when there's coaching changes. Could that have had a role in Ike's decision. When is the last time Willard had us this undersized at the 4 and the 5 position?
Undersized. No.
Without a true PG that he didn’t try to convert into one….for basically his entire tenure. 🤔
I agree with Willard's value to our program. I was not enamored by the return of Aiken, but Cale? I wish he could have come back every year. As for Ike, it was time to move on. It would be a big surprise if he were to improve, and the offensive liabilities he brought were glaring. Very glad he seems happy and successful in his post Hall career
Without a true PG, 6 dances in 7 years. Without elite $$$ to get a complete roster you need to win with defense and a defensive guard like Q and Shavar can be more valuable towards reaching the dance than many true PGs like Nelson or Jones.
Lol Madison Jones.
Very appreciative of what Madison did in his 1 season with the Hall. But are we really evaluating / comparing the talent at PG, of an injured grad transfer who was known for dribbling the ball off his foot unguarded in the backcourt (before turning around his second half of the year) to a former walk-on that became a scholarship player who was asked to play out of position.
You are making my points for me.
If Willard had a succession plan at PG, instead of a last minute addition in Jones when Whitehead left, that team has a higher ceiling.
Love the passion, energy, and all the intangibles Shavar brought, for being a former walk-on. However, if that team has a legit PG, and not the roll the dice injury risk, Bryce Aiken was, that team makes the tournament in 2020-2021, and doesn’t falter down the stretch.
I’m not saying his tenure was all gloom and doom, but there were some glaring flaws that were apparent to some, which is why his ceiling was what it was. A 1st round tournament appearance, being an 8-10 type seed line.
Always fun to relitigate Willard’s years at SHU. The lack of NCAA wins sticks in my throat. Everything else after 2015 I’ll gladly sign up for, including the two BE banners. Accomplished with the fewest resources of any BE school. Sha will get it done but it’s going to take some time.
You're looking at true PG from the offensive side of the ball only.
Are you saying Anthony Nelson wasn't a true PG? Q and Shavar deserved more time than he did. So this oh imagine if he had a true PG sounds great but we needed more than true PG, we needed a high level true PG. You don't think Willard went after them. He didn't land them, but he went after them. He went after Aiken in HS. Hard to blame a young man not turning down Harvard. He went after Duvall. You needed $$$ to landed him. Willard failed to land a good PG because the support I give plus the support you give, plus the support of the the Seton Hall fan base doesn't match the competition. Sha's going to face the same thing. The last 7 years Willard figured out a way to do very well without the resources of his competition. Most of it surrounded with a good defensive philosphy because trying to match offenses with teams with greater resources wasn't going to work nor will it work now.
I've never understood the "natural point-guard mentality." A kid comes out of H.S. at 18. Why can't he learn and develop that "mentality"? And all those years we apparently couldn't to that, we had on our staff one of the best PGs of the last 50 years: Coach Holloway.
Lol. I won’t go down the Anthony Nelson rabbit hole on a Friday. Can’t do it.
I guess you don't want to go down the road of how difficult it is to get a complete roster of players for each position at Seton Hall when people are out there now and have always been buying players. Getting players is mostly about $$$. Willard's philosphy was all about defense. With the limited resources, he may have sacrificed a true PG to make sure he had the size to benefit the defense.
