Trump Korean Summit

[Pirata]

Children should not be separated from their parents.

That's right up there with "War is not good for children and other living things"

No Shit?

You have a keen sense for the obvious.

If you feel that strongly, write your congressional representative and ask them to change the law. The law says that people who cross the border illegally can be detained. The adult male goes to an adult male facility, the adult female to an adult female facility, and the children go to a juvenile facility.

BTW, how many of these "families" come across with birth certificates etc. Are we sure these kids are actually the children of the adult or are they being smuggled buy a Coyote?

Do realize the abject mess that occurs non-stop at the border? Do you realize the magnitude of the problem?

Of course, the media describes this as "ripping children from their parents and putting them in cages"

Here is an interesting read on one part of the situation.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-immigrant-juvenile-detention-center-met-20170223-story.html

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Then don't do something illegal.

Exactly. It's really not that complicated. Come into the country the right way. There is no one stopping them from doing that but themselves.

That's right up there with "War is not good for children and other living things"

No Shit?

You have a keen sense for the obvious.

If you feel that strongly, write your congressional representative and ask them to change the law. The law says that people who cross the border illegally can be detained. The adult male goes to an adult male facility, the adult female to an adult female facility, and the children go to a juvenile facility.

BTW, how many of these "families" come across with birth certificates etc. Are we sure these kids are actually the children of the adult or are they being smuggled buy a Coyote?

Do realize the abject mess that occurs non-stop at the border? Do you realize the magnitude of the problem?

Of course, the media describes this as "ripping children from their parents and putting them in cages"

Here is an interesting read on one part of the situation.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-immigrant-juvenile-detention-center-met-20170223-story.html

What you left out is how these people are taking jobs from American citizens and keeping wages low. They need to go after these people but they really need to go after the businesses that hire these people. If there are no jobs for these people because employers won't hire them, they won't come.

 

[shu09]

Then don't do something illegal.

Exactly. It's that simple. Get in line like everyone else, immigrate legally and everything will be fine.

 

[Pirata]

and somehow comparing that moment to the significance in that moment of General Grant's solute? That is absurd.

I don't know that it was a comparison.

Not absurd at all to post.

Trump is being criticized for saluting the "enemy". I posted an example (one I am familiar with having read Grant's memoirs) of when enemies exchanged salutes.

Here is another one for you. Its a clip from Band of Brothers. The event occurred and all indications are that the book and movie are accurate (except for the brand of pistol used in the movie)

BTW, notice how the German held the salute until it was returned.



The left's headline would read "Major Winter salutes Nazi" (despite the fact the 80% or more of the German army were not Nazis.)

 

[Merge]

It's comical that the left is so focused on breaking up families at the border all of a sudden. Obama broke up families at the border, nobody ever said a word. Trump is doing the same thing at a greater rate of enforcing the law and all of a sudden it's inhumane. Nobody wants to see families broken up. However when you break laws it happens.

The left is going after him because the decision to charge everyone crossing the border with illegal entry, and the decision to charge asylum seeing criminal court rather than waiting to see if they qualify for asylum, are both decisions the Trump administration has made making the situation worse... then placed the blame on an Obama law which isn't true.

 

[Merge]

but they really need to go after the businesses that hire these people. If there are no jobs for these people because employers won't hire them, they won't come.

You could stop the influx of illegal immigrants drastically by placing a massive fine against anyone hiring them.
Politicians won't do it because we like to exploit their cheap labor.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

You could stop the influx of illegal immigrants drastically by placing a massive fine against anyone hiring them.
Politicians won't do it because we like to exploit their cheap labor.

Yeah well until Congress comes up with something to do that, the President is making sure we enforce the laws. The vote on a law that fines or provides severe penalties to businesses who hire illegal immigrants should be 100 to 0.

 

[SPK145]

You could stop the influx of illegal immigrants drastically by placing a massive fine against anyone hiring them.
Politicians won't do it because we like to exploit their cheap labor.

Um, that law is in place, see the I-9 requirement, it's just not enforced.

 

[SPK145]

Stand by it all you like, If it were Obama you would be blasting him right now. You criticized Obama for not knowing hot to give a "proper" salute. If he did so to an adversary, proper or not - you would be killing him for it.

I'd say this is true, much in the same fashion you are doing now crushing Trump but overlooking Obama. We all do it.

 

[knowknow456]

That's right up....

That's right up there with "War is not good for children and other living things" - I agree

No Shit?

You have a keen sense for the obvious. - Many people do not so I view your statement as a positive.

If you feel that strongly, write your congressional representative and ask them to change the law. The law says that people who cross the border illegally can be detained. The adult male goes to an adult male facility, the adult female to an adult female facility, and the children go to a juvenile facility. - I agree this issue needs to be addressed at the Congressional level

BTW, how many of these "families" come across with birth certificates etc. Are we sure these kids are actually the children of the adult or are they being smuggled buy a Coyote? - Separating the children from their guardians is not a good thing either.

Do realize the abject mess that occurs non-stop at the border? Do you realize the magnitude of the problem? - I am not completely conversant on the topic, but I realize the magnitude of the problem.

Of course, the media describes this as "ripping children from their parents and putting them in cages" - As you must have figured out by now, I rarely overreact to how something is portrayed in the media

Here is an interesting read on one part of the situation. - Thank you. I will read over the weekend

 

[Merge]

Um, that law is in place, see the I-9 requirement, it's just not enforced.

Yeah I am talking about a massive penalty - The current law is hundreds to thousands.
but in either case - The reason it is not enforced is because our economy runs better by exploiting them for the cheap labor.

 

[Merge]

I'd say this is true, much in the same fashion you are doing now crushing Trump but overlooking Obama. We all do it.

I haven't killed him for it at all.
I said it was a mistake - but we should at least be able to acknowledge it was a mistake.
Like Obama's coffee cup solute. Like Trump having to be reminded to put his hand over his heart during the national anthem.

If you are hyper critical when one of them does something wrong - then just be consistent.

 

[Pirata]

The reason it is not enforced is because our economy runs better by exploiting them for the cheap labor.

I read Ann Coulter's "Adios America" in which she argues this very point quite well.

Interestingly, she predicted Trump's victory and based her prediction largely on his immigration stances.

 

[Pirata]

Merge, Merge, Merge.....

You went back to an October thread and quoted without full context. Shame-shame-shame.

What is more offensive? Kaepernick modifying his protest to a kneel after inviting a veteran to discuss his protest or the CIC never even bothering to learn when he is supposed to stand?

https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/10/12/trump-disrespects-flag-live-television-video/

1. Your article that you cited in your post was completely debunked. It was clearly shown that Trump was under no obligation to stand while indoors and in fact would be a bit out of place.
   
2. This was my complete response to you of which you only posted one of the three.

Bill Clinton getting a blow job in the Oval Office.

Obama not knowing how to render a proper salute.

Obama bowing to to Foreign in head of state.

I stand by my response that says getting a blow job in the oval office is more offensive than not standing when your not supposed to stand, i.e. Trump was correct.

I also toss in the other two items. Again, they are more offensive then not doing something that you are not supposed to do.

 

[cernjSHU]

Let's stop the silliness. No reason to separate kids from mothers. period. Are we not above this? You want to enforce the immigration laws so be it. It does not have to take human compassion out of it. Their rationale for this is to make it a repercussion for breaking the immigration policy of the US. This is just not right. Sorry. We as the US are better than this.

 

[Section112]

I agree we should not be splitting up families.

The Dems want open borders but won't admit it. The Repubs want to enforce our laws unless of course it doesn't get them elected next term. Neither party wants to deal with the real issues and thus nothing is getting done.

The reality is that enforcing the law is very ugly and bad stuff will happen to these very poor people looking for a better life if we actually enforce our laws. That is what you see happening which is no different than a citizen in the US getting arrested for a crime and DYFS coming in and taking their kids while their parents are locked up (happens every day).

The reality is we need laws and need the conviction to enforce them. We also need cooperation from the other side of the border with our friends in Mexico and to a lesser extent Canada. We will never get any cooperation from Mexico. The cartels and smugglers are making huge amounts of money smuggling in these very poor people at very high numbers every single day. The problem is real and significant and it's costing us all a lot of money and the promise of America is not always true for many of these poor people who end up killed or suffocated in hot trucks etc. trying to get over the border. It's a dangerous game all around, people are dying every day on both sides of the border (immigrants and enforcement officers) and our knuckleheads in Congress need to stop whining about it and actually get something done to slow the flow, enforce our laws and also be humane in doing it somehow. A tall task for sure.

There should be no sides to this. Just a need to protect the border, detain the people in a reasonable way if they do get here and then finding a humane way to either send them back or keep them.

 

[Pirata]

many of these poor people who end up killed or suffocated in hot trucks etc. trying to get over the border. It's a dangerous game all around, people are dying every day on both sides of the border

Case in point:

5 Dead in Texas After S.U.V. Packed With Immigrants Crashes in High-Speed Chase

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/17/us/texas-crash-suv-border.html

 

[Merge]

There should be no sides to this. Just a need to protect the border, detain the people in a reasonable way if they do get here and then finding a humane way to either send them back or keep them.

I actually agree with most of your post, but that is ultimately the question up for debate right now. We had a change in policy under the new administration - the goal of the policy was deterrence. Is the new policy in improvement for how we treat the asylum seekers who came into this country illegally?

We have been using the separated children as bargaining chips. We separate them from their parents, charge their parents with a crime and tell them if they plead guilty they can be reunited with their children. Once they offer a guilty plea, it will make it significantly harder (if not impossible) to obtain asylum in the US.

 

[knowknow456]

There should be no sides to this. Just a need to protect the border, detain the people in a reasonable way if they do get here and then finding a humane way to either send them back or keep them.

There should be no sides to this but the reality is immigration policy and immigration reform are political issues that have defied resolution for 100 years. There are no easy answers. That being said, separating children from their parents does not increase border security. It should not be done. Please speak up, not just in this forum but in your real world as well.

 

[Pirata]

Nielsen briefing on June 18.

 

[SPK145]

That being said, separating children from their parents does not increase border security. It should not be done. Please speak up, not just in this forum but in your real world as well.

I've been trying to speak up, preaching immigrants not to come to the U.S illegally. It's a choice.

 

[cernjSHU]

I've been trying to speak up, preaching immigrants not to come to the U.S illegally. It's a choice.

Entering the US illegally (crossing the border) is a misdemeanor. It is akin to the State level of a disorderly person offense which are minor offenses and are handled at the municipal level.

However, half of the illegals in this country overstay their Visas. This is not a felony or a misdemeanor. You cannot be sent to jail for this. It is not a crime. Only deported and or fined.

Does either one of these justify this Trump policy?

 

[Pirata]

So your in favor of continuing to allow a triple digit increase in sex trafficking of minors?

 

[cernjSHU]

So your in favor of continuing to allow a triple digit increase in sex trafficking of minors?

How do you come up with this nonsequiter? A policy that seperates little children from parents has anything to do with sex trade? . Wow. Two different subjects here.

 

[Pirata]

You clearly do not understand what is going on at the border. Do a little research and learn what is actually going on. Don't get your news from Dem/Liberal talking points.

You should be able to make the connection at that point.

Hint: Illegal Immigration, gangs, drugs, and human trafficking are intertwined. As was told to me by border patrol, " they are all one problem but no politician will admit it".

 

[cernjSHU]

You clearly do not understand what is going on at the border. Do a little research and learn what is actually going on. Don't get your news from Dem/Liberal talking points.

You should be able to make the connection at that point.

Hint: Illegal Immigration, gangs, drugs, and human trafficking are intertwined. As was told to me by border patrol, " they are all one problem but no politician will admit it".

So in your view because there are gangs, drugs and human trafficking that come over the border, this justifies taking children away from their mothers. So the gangs and drugs dealers who are coming over with their wives gf's and children????
HINT: By far, drug dealers and gangs are not coming over with their children and wives.

I think I deal(meaning fight) with drugs and gangs more than most people. This DOES NOT justify this treatment of children. These are not talking points. This is just wrong.

Btw, I have no stats and not looking it up. However, from what I have seen there are certainly sex trafficking coming from the Latin American countries. But it seems like there are far more coming from Asia and Russia. Reliable stats have to be very difficult to come by.

 

[Pirata]

So in your view because there are gangs, drugs and human trafficking that come over the border, this justifies taking children away from their mothers.

Please do not put words in my mouth. If you are unclear, then pose it as a question.

For the record, I am quite opposed to separating the children. However, under the current law, the choice we face is one of two evils.

With zero tolerance there are legitimate families that come across (illegally) and are being separated. If we ignore the law, these families would not be separated.

However, ignoring the law, allows another cohort of children coming across without their parents. These come across with smugglers, etc. Based on data, that number is greater than 83% (10,000 children)

Have we no compassion for them?

The current laws abuse the 83% (10,000 children) and helps some unknown portion of the 13%.

This needs to be fixed and ignoring it will not do that.

 

[Pirata]

Here are a couple of articles.

https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/15/politics/immigration-unintended-consequences/index.html

and

http://latinousa.org/2014/09/12/smugglers/

The second article speaks more to the 83% I referenced. Stemming that tide has to be done.

 

[Pirata]

I think I deal(meaning fight) with drugs and gangs more than most people.

I came at it from the gang side. Started with domestic and then spilled into international. Meetings with ICE opened my eyes.

 

[knowknow456]

So your in favor of continuing to allow a triple digit increase in sex trafficking of minors?

Please do not put words in his mouth. That isn't what he said.

 

[SPK145]

Does either one of these justify this Trump policy?

I don’t like separating children from their parents but I dislike coming into this country illegally more. It’s a choice one makes to come in illegally, that is where the problem starts and that is where the problem should be dealth with. Keep the family together and then send them back quickly.

 

[Pirata]

Please do not put words in his mouth. That isn't what he said.

Are you his bitch? lol.

I purposely did that because Cern is insufferable with his constant "so your saying....." and other forms of twisting people's postings.

 

[Pirata]

Entering the US illegally (crossing the border) is a misdemeanor. It is akin to the State level of a disorderly person offense which are minor offenses and are handled at the municipal level.

(See Title 8, Section 1325 of the U.S. Code (U.S.C.), or Section 275 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.) for the exact statutory language - https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-9025.html)

Criminal Penalties
For the first improper entry offense, the person can be fined (as a criminal penalty), or imprisoned for up to six months, or both. For a subsequent offense, the person can be fined or imprisoned for up to two years, or both. (See 8 U.S.C. Section 1325, I.N.A. Section 275.)

 

[Merge]

I don’t like separating children from their parents but I dislike coming into this country illegally more. It’s a choice one makes to come in illegally, that is where the problem starts and that is where the problem should be dealth with. Keep the family together and then send them back quickly.

I can respect that opinion on paper, but I don't think that prevents us from discussing what happened over the last year and a half which is bringing the issue to the forefront.

This isn't just about illegal immigrants - We have implemented policies of deterrence trying to stop people from trying to come to the US, not just illegally but those seeking asylum.

Asylum seekers are now turned away and told to try again another day. They will wait outside the US border, keep trying and keep getting denied. So they have no way of legally requesting asylum. What some have then been doing is coming across illegally to request asylum. We now have zero tolerance so they are charged and separated from their children . They are told they can be reunited with their children if they plea guilty to entering the country illegally. Once they do that, they will not be able to get asylum here.

Now they are using these policies as a bargaining chip and it sounds like they would be willing to stop separating families for the trade of a border wall. Pretty gross in my opinion.

 

[HALL85]

Virtually every interview we see, the person seeking asylum indicates that it's because of fear of gang violence in their country of origin (Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc.). These are not oppressive governments or human rights violations....it's a problem that the government of their own country is not managing. If anything, we should also step up our efforts with those governments to deal with the issue, using our economic leverage (sanctions, etc.).

 

[cernjSHU]

(See Title 8, Section 1325 of the U.S. Code (U.S.C.), or Section 275 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.) for the exact statutory language - https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-9025.html)

Criminal Penalties
For the first improper entry offense, the person can be fined (as a criminal penalty), or imprisoned for up to six months, or both. For a subsequent offense, the person can be fined or imprisoned for up to two years, or both. (See 8 U.S.C. Section 1325, I.N.A. Section 275.)

Exactly, a max 6 month jail term is a misdemeanor offense, not a felony.

 

[SPK145]

Asylum seekers are now turned away and told to try again another day. They will wait outside the US border, keep trying and keep getting denied. So they have no way of legally requesting asylum. What some have then been doing is coming across illegally to request asylum. We now have zero tolerance so they are charged and separated from their children . They are told they can be reunited with their children if they plea guilty to entering the country illegally. Once they do that, they will not be able to get asylum here.

Now they are using these policies as a bargaining chip and it sounds like they would be willing to stop separating families for the trade of a border wall. Pretty gross in my opinion.

They don't have the absolute right to enter the U.S., we can't take everyone. If they still try to come in illegally, they are illegal, trying to game the system with all of this asylum stuff. Should be very few seeking asylum, it's not an open border policy. We should not allow this. Turn them away. Enforce the law, something leaders have refused to do in the past.

 

[Merge]

They don't have the absolute right to enter the U.S., we can't take everyone. If they still try to come in illegally, they are illegal, trying to game the system with all of this asylum stuff. Should be very few seeking asylum, it's not an open border policy. We should not allow this. Turn them away. Enforce the law, something leaders have refused to do in the past.

I agree. You do not have the right to asylum. You do have the right to request it though.

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-united-states

"To obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status."

The policy changed so those people in the US requesting asylum are charged with entering the US illegally.

We are separating them from their children, and saying they can see them again if the plea guilty. A guilty plea will also block them from possibly being granted asylum.

I mean, say what you want about the policy of asylum seekers, and there is definitely some validity to what you are saying - but what we are doing seems pretty messed up.

 

[knowknow456]

They don't have the absolute right to enter the U.S., we can't take everyone.

This is true. Putting aside policy issues, how many people should we take in per year?

 

[SPK145]

This is true. Putting aside policy issues, how many people should we take in per year?

How should I know?