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Who killed JFK?

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NYC Pirate

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Nov 11, 2007
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Today is the 50th anniversary of the shooting of JFK, one of the most historic days
in American history. No matter what happened in Dallas, that day changed the path
of this country.

I am in the camp that does not believe the official story. I have researched the evidence in this case
quite a bit. I could believe that Oswald was able to do this, but so much of the other evidence
points to a conspiracy. I only get frustrated when either side says there is "No Doubt" because you can't
look at this and be a 100% positive either way.

I think we'll never really know what happened to the point that everyone is satisfied, What do members of
the Pirate Community think?

This post was edited on 11/22 11:08 AM by NYC Pirate
 
Agree NYC Pirate. I used to work with a guy (very bright man who was President of a few insurance companies) who was in the Marines with Oswald. He said that it was written that Oswald was a good shooter when he was in the marines. He said that was false and that he was one of the lowest rated shooters in the entire battalion. He said he could not hit the side of a barn and had to retake the test many times to pass. My friend and former co-worker Larry said that he contacted the FBI after Kennedy was shot along with a few other guys who served with Oswald trying to tell them he was a terrible shot. He said the FBI never returned their calls.

In addition the gun he had was an Italian rifle and they said it kicked very badly every time it was fired. Hardly a gun a marksman would use.

I think Oswald was a pawn but he loved the limelight after being such a lost soul his entire life. Either the Mob or Cuba/Soviets killed Kennedy with J Edgars approval. We will probably never know.
 
Somewhat related take a look at the front page photo of today's NSL. It's something you will never see again in today's world. The photo taken on Columbus Day in 1962 with the President sitting in the open on the raised deck raised above the Presidential limo while his motorcaid was proceeding down Broad St in downtown Newark. Since that horrendous day 50 years ago in Dallas no President ever exposed himself in an open vehicle like that again. The NSL article also indicates that authorities received three death threats that week before the Colunbus day event in Newark where the President spoke from the steps of City Hall.

Tom K.
This post was edited on 11/22 11:41 AM by SnakeTom

1962 photo
 
Getting back to the question asked I've always thought Oswald did not act alone and was part of a conspiracy which is why he was killed in very strange circumstances (How does a gunman get into the police station with supposedly max security in effect). Too many strange events occurred and too many potential people with information suddenly meeting their demise. The Warren commission themselves said the truth will not come out for 100 years. They were there to caklm the public down , not to investigate what really happened.

Tom K
 
I find it hard to believe it was Oswald alone and I find it hard to buy into the magic bullet theory. This magic bullet doesn't ever happen in any other shootings, however the only magic bullet ever hit an iconic figure. The autopsy happened to be done by doctors who have never dealt with bullet wounds. I watch annually all the shows revisiting the scene, I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened, but I will never buy into Oswald did it alone.
 
I have to believe that Oswald acted alone absent competent proof to the contrary. Most, if not all of the non-Oswald acting alone explanations have been debunked by experts and historians. No one has ever come forward in 50 years to prove that anyone but Oswald acted alone as the shooter.
 
Two years ago I was in Dallas and went over to Dealy Plaza one night with a couple of friends and walked around the whole area. (There are actually marks on the street that denote the locations of the three bullets). Great marksman or not, I found it really difficult to fathom someone could get three shots off that quickly and accurately in such a very small area. Agree with Tom in that there was just too many odd coincidences as well as mysterious deaths.
 
I never followed this as closely as I should have, who else met their demise other than Oswald?
 
I just added a link to the photo of JFK in the Newark motorcaid (Columbus Day 1962). See my previous post. Note where the President was sitting and how exposed he was.

Tom K

1962 Newark photo
 
One of the shows on either the History Channel or Discovery Channel (the specials on the different channels blur together after a while) did a reenactment with a dummy like the one used in Mythbusters, testing the different theories. They debunked the grassy knoll shooter because with the angle and distance from the knoll to Kennedy, his wounds would have been much different (and much much much more severe). They built a platform at the same height and angle as the depository and showed that his wounds are consistent with all shots coming from the depository. They also showed that it would have been extremely difficult for Oswald to have made all the shots in the time frame because of the gun he was using and the time it takes to refocus on a moving object with such a manual weapon. When they got the closest to what actually happened, they had two sharp-shooters firing from the platform using guns identical to the one Oswald had.

I think Oswald was one of multiple shooters in the depository on that day. I think he was persuaded to be the fall guy and then executed by Ruby to close the case. As for who was behind the multiple shooters, Oswald taking the fall, and Ruby killing Oswald, I have no idea. That will go down as one of our country's biggest unanswered questions in history.
 
Did anyone ever have Dr. Sharrett for a class at Seton Hall. He had some interesting commentary on all the different film of the assassination.
 
I did, but not sure if he covered that in my class. He was my favorite professor at SHU (after Father Smith of course). I do know he has published many books/ articles on the subject.
 
Originally posted by NYC Pirate:
Today is the 50th anniversary of the shooting of JFK, one of the most historic days
in American history. No matter what happened in Dallas, that day changed the path
of this country.

I am in the camp that does not believe the official story. I have researched the evidence in this case
quite a bit. I could believe that Oswald was able to do this, but so much of the other evidence
points to a conspiracy. I only get frustrated when either side says there is "No Doubt" because you can't
look at this and be a 100% positive either way.

I think we'll never really know what happened to the point that everyone is satisfied, What do members of
the Pirate Community think?

This post was edited on 11/22 11:08 AM by NYC Pirate
Click to expand...
If you've done open-minded research I'm surprised you are still unclear. My suggestion: read the book "Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy" by Vincent Bugliosi. 1600 pages plus a CD with detailed footnotes. It is the definitive work. You will see every major conspiracy theory examined in it. It is an incredibly detailed work. Read this book with an open mind and you will come to the conclusion that Oswald did it, he acted alone and the single bullet theory is valid. I was a doubter for many years; not after investing plenty of time reading this book.
 
Originally posted by Section112:

Agree NYC Pirate. I used to work with a guy (very bright man who was President of a few insurance companies) who was in the Marines with Oswald. He said that it was written that Oswald was a good shooter when he was in the marines. He said that was false and that he was one of the lowest rated shooters in the entire battalion. He said he could not hit the side of a barn and had to retake the test many times to pass. My friend and former co-worker Larry said that he contacted the FBI after Kennedy was shot along with a few other guys who served with Oswald trying to tell them he was a terrible shot. He said the FBI never returned their calls.

In addition the gun he had was an Italian rifle and they said it kicked very badly every time it was fired. Hardly a gun a marksman would use.

I think Oswald was a pawn but he loved the limelight after being such a lost soul his entire life. Either the Mob or Cuba/Soviets killed Kennedy with J Edgars approval. We will probably never know.
Click to expand...
Fact: There were three progressively higher levels of military record fire qualification: Marksman, Sharpshooter and Expert. Oswald qualified as a sharpshooter during his first record fire with a score of 212. To say he was a terrible shot is anecdotal BS.

Most of the conspiracy stuff out there is based on this type of anecdotal crap...someone heard someone tell somebody else something etc. You can't argue with the facts. The guy qualified as a sharpshooter.
 
I have been to the sixth floor museum at the depository. They had "x's" on the street (they actually removed them this week) where JFK was hit. The first thing that struck me at the depository window was just how close the limo was to where Oswald was posted when they turned down Elm street. I am no shooting expert, but it didn't appear you had to be a tremendous shooter to hit him. I was back at Dealey Plaza Saturday and the conspiracy theorist were in full force.
 
Originally posted by SnakeTom:

Getting back to the question asked I've always thought Oswald did not act alone and was part of a conspiracy which is why he was killed in very strange circumstances (How does a gunman get into the police station with supposedly max security in effect). Too many strange events occurred and too many potential people with information suddenly meeting their demise. The Warren commission themselves said the truth will not come out for 100 years. They were there to caklm the public down , not to investigate what really happened.

Tom K
Click to expand...
Tom, if you read the Bugliosi book you'll become convinced. The Warren Commission definitely had problems, but their central conclusions were accurate.
 
Originally posted by SHUHoopsFan:
I find it hard to believe it was Oswald alone and I find it hard to buy into the magic bullet theory. This magic bullet doesn't ever happen in any other shootings, however the only magic bullet ever hit an iconic figure. The autopsy happened to be done by doctors who have never dealt with bullet wounds. I watch annually all the shows revisiting the scene, I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened, but I will never buy into Oswald did it alone.
Click to expand...
The autopsy was very poorly done, no question. But if you dig deep and read the objective research you'll find that the single bullet theory is accurate. Nova on PBS also just ran a program with the most modern technological ballistics analysis of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle bullets and it reinforced the validity of the single bullet theory.
 
I always believed there was more than one shooter, the crazed lone gunman just never worked for me.

It just seemed too complex an event, that I always felt there had to be more people involved. Three shots/hits with that type rifle, at that distant, in such a short time period, with other external factors (moving car - even slowly, leaves on trees/obstructed view), even for an expert marksman would have been extremely difficult.

Also, so many weird things with Oswald, between defecting to Russia, and than returning to the US . Plus the connections to different groups (CIA, anti Castro).
 
Originally posted by Section112:

Agree NYC Pirate. I used to work with a guy (very bright man who was President of a few insurance companies) who was in the Marines with Oswald. He said that it was written that Oswald was a good shooter when he was in the marines. He said that was false and that he was one of the lowest rated shooters in the entire battalion. He said he could not hit the side of a barn and had to retake the test many times to pass. My friend and former co-worker Larry said that he contacted the FBI after Kennedy was shot along with a few other guys who served with Oswald trying to tell them he was a terrible shot. He said the FBI never returned their calls.

In addition the gun he had was an Italian rifle and they said it kicked very badly every time it was fired. Hardly a gun a marksman would use.

I think Oswald was a pawn but he loved the limelight after being such a lost soul his entire life. Either the Mob or Cuba/Soviets killed Kennedy with J Edgars approval. We will probably never know.
Click to expand...
The conspiracy books are filled with lies and misconceptions. He was a decent shot, and that shot was a cakewalk. Recent computer recreations show the wounds on JFK and Connelly lining up and the trajectory leads right to where Oswald was. Oswald shot another political guy earlier that year, but the connection was not found till his rifle was recovered and the ballistics matched.

The mob, the CIA, Castro, they all had reason to be pissed. Of the three, the Cuba connection is the only one that holds water imo, and while I do not discount totally the possibility of their involvement, I do not think any eveident points to them and I hold for the single bullet theory. As the most cleqar evidence of what liars the conspiracy books are, they sibscribe to the inane description of the bullet's path as reenacted in Stone's JFK and on the Seinfeld second spitter episode (btw, I do believe that Mac Dowell WAS inivolved in that one...)

It is hard to believe that one do nothing man could change history. But he did.

I never hired a hitman. But from what I have read about Oswald and Ruby (who was as much a mob guy as Henry Hill's wife), they are the last guys anyone would hire. The books are fascinating. I have read about 25 of them. They repeat the same misconceptions so that you believe they are facts. But if you do some other research, you can see it is all a sham. A guy like Gerald Posner has probably done as good a job as anyone in debunking the BSers.

The anniversary made me believe that the single most important incident of the 20th century may have been the Bay of Pigs fiasco. If JFK did not live thru that and see how the military and CIA hid stuff from him and misrepresented their plans and potential for success, then he would not have had the balls to follow his concsince whrnb th emnissle crisis came, and would have invaded, leading to a nuclear attack from Cuba (Castro has said if we invaded, he was gonna use the nukes he already had, and we didnt know he had tactical nukes installed already.)
 
You can read books which will convince you 100 percent either way. I read one of the conspiracy books so I'm 100 percent convinced Oswald did not act alone. If I read a different book I might feel exactly the opposite. End result: nobody knows, nobody is ever going to know, anyone who says they know is delusional.
 
Originally posted by seton1996:
I always believed there was more than one shooter, the crazed lone gunman just never worked for me.

It just seemed too complex an event, that I always felt there had to be more people involved. Three shots/hits with that type rifle, at that distant, in such a short time period, with other external factors (moving car - even slowly, leaves on trees/obstructed view), even for an expert marksman would have been extremely difficult.

Also, so many weird things with Oswald, between defecting to Russia, and than returning to the US . Plus the connections to different groups (CIA, anti Castro).
Click to expand...
With all due respect, this is what drives me crazy about the assassination. Just saying it doesn't make sense and leaving it at that is intellectually lazy. If you take the time to look objectively at facts and research you'll find that there is much less mystery than you think. Oswald did it, nobody else. Three shots, one missed. It was not a complex shooting scenario.
 
HallLine69, I will definitely check out the book. I've been a huge fan of this subject since 1991 after seeing Oliver Stone's JFK. I would like to read how all the conspiracy theories are bogus and how the magic bullet theory has to be true or even why the car was moving at such a slow speed.
 
Originally posted by SHUHoopsFan:
HallLine69, I will definitely check out the book. I've been a huge fan of this subject since 1991 after seeing Oliver Stone's JFK. I would like to read how all the conspiracy theories are bogus and how the magic bullet theory has to be true or even why the car was moving at such a slow speed.
Click to expand...
It's a huge book, but very good. Also, this week PBS Nova has a special "Cold Case JFK" which included the most technologically current ballistics tests to reconstruct the shooting and test the single bullet theory. The tests validated single bullet.
 
Would you tend to gravitate towards books that back your theories?

Like I said I only get frustrated when people say(Gerald Posner) that there is no doubt. Obviously this
thread proves that there is doubt and whether you read a book with 100 pages or 5000 ,that does not
put a final stamp on this case.

You can make an excellent case either way.
 
This has nothing to do with the conspiracy theory (I don't think..lol), but CBS News has been running segments all week and one covered the decision to take the bubble top off the limosine. Apparently, it was a Secret Service Agent that either made the call and he mentioned to one of the reporters (I think it was actually Bob Schieffer) how he regretted that decision. The bubble wasn't bullet proof but certainly would have been a tougher shot.

I've shot guns (and I'm no marksman), but getting those three shots off so quickly with that weapon, with that accuracy provides enough doubt to know if it was or wasn't a sole shooter. Having been there, you are not that close as you think you are.
 
Just one other thing while many say Oswald was the only shooter, This in itself does not mean that there was not a conspiracy. Oswald could very well have been the sole shooter and also been put up to this by others and that is why he was killed in the Dallas police station to shut him up.


QUESTION THAT REMAINS UNANSWERED: How was Jack Ruby able to just walk into the Dallas police station/jail with a loaded weapon when there was supposed to be maximum security surrounding the person accused of killing the President. Also there was a photo of Oswalt, Ruby and a dancer at Ruby's nightclub together taken prior to the assassination. The young lady in the photo was arrested the next day for some minor chage and them found hung in her jail cell. Has any of this ever been explained and exactly what was Ruby's role in all these coincidences?

Tom K
 
An odd anecdote: Around 1990 I was very friendly with a co-worker. We often had lunch together. He comes in one Monday and says he ius reading a book about the assasination. I had bought my fiorst book a few weeks earlier, so we would often discuss what we had been reading at lunch. We went to a place on Mulberry St which we frequented. It had four big tabkles, and four tables for two. We always st at a larger table, as we used to go around 1-1:30. This time to mgr asks us to take a small table. We think BS, we are regulars, their is a big tabel open, we are gonna sit there. Si ghe gives in and we make ourselves comfortable. we sit down adn quickly realize what assholes we had been, ad JFK Jr ws sitting in the corner and the mgr wanted to give him some privacy. This was when he was working for the NYC prosecutors office. It was so odd being ten feet away from a man when his father's murder was our frequent topic of conversation.

Anyway, read up, read bnoth sides, the common thread is the stretching of facts and halftruths by the buffs.
 
If you saw the recent PBS special where they were able to construct a 3d model using every single frame from the film footage you'll see it all pints back to a single shooter and all the bullets trajectories lead back to a single window in the book deposit. It's just a sad fact to think that ne man could change the course of history.

The valid question is was as Tom said. Was there anyone behind the shooting
 
Hallline69 - I am just passing on what a very intelligent Marine told me. He even said that multiple other marines said he could not shoot very well. If this in fact was a conspiracy don't you think they would have changed some of those records. I am far from an expert but I believed Larry when he told us this story. The guy is as fine a man as I have ever met and has nothing to gain from this story. He simply said that Oswald was not a good shot and I believe him. You can look at Wikipedia all you want but facts that you can find in writing don't always tell the whole truth. Larry still finds it amazing that the FBI never called back one of the guys who wanted to tell them he was not a good shot. Just relaying a story that is all. If you heard Larry tell the story you might change your mind. It's pretty clear where you fall on the story and that's cool. I believe Larry though.
 
The open question of whether there were multiple shooters, a conspiracy or Oswald acted alone will always remain an unanswered question for many Americans and people all over the world and each of us has his or her beliefs on the answers to those question.

To me the most intriguing and puzzling question has always been what was the true motive behind the assassination of Oswald and how it could happen and most intriguing to me is why Oswald wasn't under the control of federal authorities and the Secret Service and in a secure location.
 
I'm not sure about the"magic bullet" theory, but I am sure about the "magic loogey" theory.
 
One thing about Ruby and not being tied to the mob, how do you run a business
like he did and not have communication/connections with the mob on a regular basis?

We have been hearing about Oswald and his shooting ability. Ruby hit a homerun
with his killing ability, an event that took place at a heavily guarded police facility and
in front of dozens of other witnesses. He had one shot and he did a perfect job. My point is
that if it dresses like a killer, walks like a killer and does a text book killing, guess what? It
didn't look like his first rodeo.
 
When I die and go to Heaven; the first thing I'm gonna ask God is: Who killed JFK and where is Jimmy Hoffa buried.
JFK was killed by the mob; no question in my mind. Ever see the film? Kennedy's head goes forward as he is shot
from behind and then quickly snaps backwards as if shot from a different angle. Oswald could not have done all the
shooting with the rifle he had and the time frame in which he shot.
 
Anyone who believes 100% what the media says and the official government story on ANYTHING is delusional and living in a fantasy world.
 
jcpetri I got a kick out of your post. You know when they ask that question about if you could have dinner with 3 people who would it be. Kennedy was always on my list because I always wanted to know what his plans were and how that might have changed history and also how was Marilyn Monroe in bed. Two very important questions that inquiring minds want to know...
 
Originally posted by NYC Pirate:
One thing about Ruby and not being tied to the mob, how do you run a business
like he did and not have communication/connections with the mob on a regular basis?

We have been hearing about Oswald and his shooting ability. Ruby hit a homerun
with his killing ability, an event that took place at a heavily guarded police facility and
in front of dozens of other witnesses. He had one shot and he did a perfect job. My point is
that if it dresses like a killer, walks like a killer and does a text book killing, guess what? It
didn't look like his first rodeo.
Click to expand...
I think it was quite clear that Jack Ruby did have mob connections and he was also involved in gun running into Cuba. He was someone with a sinister history yet allowed into the police station unimpeded at a time of alleged max security.

TK
 
I've seen the Oliver Stone movie enough to be convinced anything might be possible but that guy is one of the biggest liberal crackpots there is despite him making my all time favorite movie; Wall Street.

I wasn't born in 1963 to really have any account so all one can do is read the history and speculation and wonder what happened. Pretty crazy that Oswald was killed that easily and so quickly like that. That's the most suspicious piece of the whole story IMO.

I think the country was in a different place 50 years ago and nothing could be out of consideration. Today, we deal with other issues that continue to make one think that they can't rely or trust the government to do the right thing. There is no one better example to point to than the debacle we are witnessing before us right now; Obamacare. 2016 can't get here soon enough.
 
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