Who killed JFK?
- Thread starter NYC Pirate
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If you pay attn to the computer recreation of the scene, the single bullet theory checks out 100%. If all the bullets can be accounted for, and all three belong to Oswald, why would you put any stock in mutliple gunman?
Was Oswald an agent for X or Y? I doubt it, but a case could be made for that. But to forsake the forensics, the found gun, the receipts that he bought the gun, the fact that be brought a long thin package to work that day and said it was curtain rods.....and on and on...
How many people believe that the govt knocked down the WTCs? Is anything more assinine than that? But a ton of people believe it. Believing that some powerful cabal is behind a tragedy give us a sense of order. To think some twerp with a 15 dollar rifle can kill JKF, that just smacks us in the fact with how random the world really is, and we prefer to avoid that thinking.
I give up. People are going to believe whatever they want to. It's incredibly easy to sit back and point at an inconsistency or to muse about the mob or the CIA or to offer "it doesn't make sense to me" comments about the marksmanship. It's also easy easy to read any of he various conspiracy theory books (a number of which I've read and once believed). It's more difficult and time-consuming to read the objective reports, tests and analyses and come to an opinion based on facts and data.
Skepticism is a healthy thing. All institutions lie to some degree or another...that includes churches, universities, and corporations as well as government and media. But just because you can't believe 100% of what they say, that doesn't mean they are wrong 100% of the time.
I did the same exercise and being an experienced shooter I was shocked when I went to the book depository window . The shot was much closer than you might expect with a clear unobstructed view and a scope I was astonished at how close the range was. This was not a difficult shot or series of shots to get off. A critical factor often overlooked was that JFK wore a very heavy body and back brace so after the first hit he did not slump over as you would expect but remained upright in full view. This was very doable by a single person and a very easy shot.
Come on Tom. How many dumb things do cops and robbers and other people do every day. They f'ed up. Ruby was intimately aware of the station as he was a cop groupie, often bringing them sandwiches and coffee to stay in favor with them so they gave him a break at his strip club. Ruby had an abnormal love if his dog. But he left the dog in the car when he went in to do the deed. Also, a few minutes earlier, he went to Western Union to wire some money to one of his strippers. He happened to make it to the station when he did. He walked right in like he owned the place, and he pulled his gun and killed Oswald. Oswalds movements that day were delayed, but obviously, the cabal notified Jack (did he text him...) so he was there at the right time.
As for the stripper, "Mooney (the stripper) had a reason to be suicidal. She lost custody of her four children who were at the time of her death living with her mother in Paris, Texas. Both Goode and Moore stated that the loss of her children caused her to become despondent (CE 2589). The toxicological report performed by the toxicologist of the Dallas County Hospital on February 14, 1964 stated that she had a blood alcohol level of 0.169% the night she hanged herself. Alcohol contributes to a more depressed state of mind. The combination of alcohol, a despondent personality, and her history of suicide attempts explains her suicide the morning of February 13, 1964. "
Is her death a sign of a plot? I have no idea. But I can assure you you can read a thousand books on the topic and nowhere will the POV I referenced above be noted. (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nancy_mooney.htm)
99 out of 100 reason why people doubt this iare cause of bullshit from the authors of the mostly sham books, or overzealous haters like Oliver Stone, or from casual conversations with people who never read the real evidence. I know. I was one of the conspiracists for most of my life. But I met the Bill W of the JFK assasination and am cured, one day at a time...
web site if you are interested in the assasination
That was his 1st test score. Barely above Sharptshooter(2pts). Later he tested 1 above Marksman the lowest level.
He was that good of a shot. Particular doubt so an Italian weapon
purchased only 8 months prior nearly 20 yrs old. WOuld be hard. I was down there once. Morbid tour a Convertible Limo same model drives down Dealy Plaza at same actual speeds.
I can see the grassy knoll conspiracy. Behind it is a rail yard easy to escape.
That being said Do believe he was the lone shooter. But ordered by others. The interwined degrees of seperation of the two leads me to believe their "could" be more but a lot of it is conjecture.
And secrets are very hard to keep. Especially as soon as more than one knows it.
He was that good of a shot. Particular doubt so an Italian weapon
purchased only 8 months prior nearly 20 yrs old. WOuld be hard. I was down there once. Morbid tour a Convertible Limo same model drives down Dealy Plaza at same actual speeds.
I can see the grassy knoll conspiracy. Behind it is a rail yard easy to escape.
That being said Do believe he was the lone shooter. But ordered by others. The interwined degrees of seperation of the two leads me to believe their "could" be more but a lot of it is conjecture.
And secrets are very hard to keep. Especially as soon as more than one knows it.
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
I'm not in one court or the other as I haven't done enough research and as has been said, your opinion could be swayed depending on who's spin you're reading. But re: Tom's post, that seems oddly cooincidental that Oswald and Ruby were seen hanging out and then later, one assassinates the president and the other guns down Oswald? And did Ruby have a particularly compelling reason to react to the assassination the way he did?
This post was edited on 11/22 3:30 PM by phi_pirates
This post was edited on 11/22 3:30 PM by phi_pirates
I think it more accurate to say you can make a case that Oswald acted alone, and you can use circumstatial evidence to make you think something is funny out there. But as far as being a murder case - ballistics, proof of purchase of the gun, working in the bldg where the shots came from, ta previous attempt at polotical assasination with that same gun in thw town where Oswald lived - try proving a guys innocence with all that against him.
I remembering watching a history Chanel show on the 40th anniversary of Presidents Kennedy's death and they came up with the conclusion that president Johnson was behind it.
75 I think one can say yes he did purchase the gun, and yes he did work in the building, and yes he did fire the rifle. The questions I have are these...Was his rifle the only one fired? Was he up to this himself? Was the rifle given to Ruby or anyone else? Did he have the ability to invite Ruby or anyone else into the building where he worked to watch the parade? Why was the car going so slow? When JFK was hit how did his head go in 1 direction initially then back in the other from shots all from the same building? How did the bullet that did so much damage come out clean as a whistle? How can Ruby so easily kill Oswald? Is there any truth that doctors initially said the bullet entered from the front? Maybe there are answers for all these questions. I don't know. But I'm not sold on all the answers given, so I'm open to the theories.
I agree. The overwhelming weight of direct evidence demonstrates that Oswald was the shooter. People who ascribe to the conspiracy theories point to circumstantial evidence that appears to suggest that there may have been other factors in play. However, there is no real direct evidence that someone other than Oswald was the shooter or that he did not act alone. Where is the direct evidence that someone else was involved? Why has no one come forward in 50 years to disapprove the results of the Warren Commission?
That Oswald was not the best shot in the Marines is common knowledge and was well known at the time of the assasination. You think the FBI needs yor fri3nd to tell them to look at his military records?
People have recreated the shots and in the alloted time, time and again. Saying things doesnt make them so.
I believe Oswald was one of multiple shooters. What always has bothered me is, why wouldn't Oswald have shot JFK as he was riding towards the Book Depository on Houston Street? It's a much easier shot and a closer range. Instead, Oswald waits until JFK is at an angle and moving away from his position. Makes absolutely no sense.
Dealey Plaza was chosen by whoever organized this (probably the CIA) because of it's unique shape. It's a perfect spot to get a triangulation of fire. There was no way JFK was getting out of there alive. That's why Oswald waited until JFK was on Elm St. If Oswald was acting 100% alone with nobody supporting him, he'd have pulled the trigger while the motorcade was coming directly towards him on Houston St.
Back and to the left goes Kennedy's head when the fatal shot hits him. Simple physics proves there were multiple shooters.
Dealey Plaza was chosen by whoever organized this (probably the CIA) because of it's unique shape. It's a perfect spot to get a triangulation of fire. There was no way JFK was getting out of there alive. That's why Oswald waited until JFK was on Elm St. If Oswald was acting 100% alone with nobody supporting him, he'd have pulled the trigger while the motorcade was coming directly towards him on Houston St.
Back and to the left goes Kennedy's head when the fatal shot hits him. Simple physics proves there were multiple shooters.
A couple of items. There were very conflicting reports about
the weapons found. Yes, Oswald's MC Italian Bolt Action Rifle
was found and that's what was presented. However, you can go back and
look at each network's(CBS,NBC,ABC) nonstop coverage of that day which is
all available on the internet, and many times a "German Mauser" was specifically
identified as being re-covered. So why can't there have been either 2 shooters on that
floor of the TSD or on multiple floors?
Second, The shots were not separated by an equal amount of time. People, some police
heard the first shot and then the second and third very close together. In addition the first shot
sounded like a firecracker and the other two were louder which could indicate a different weapon.
I do agree that there could be issues with the motorcycle cop's recording of the shots and where
he was in the motorcade route relating to the limo. That's a tough one for me.
the weapons found. Yes, Oswald's MC Italian Bolt Action Rifle
was found and that's what was presented. However, you can go back and
look at each network's(CBS,NBC,ABC) nonstop coverage of that day which is
all available on the internet, and many times a "German Mauser" was specifically
identified as being re-covered. So why can't there have been either 2 shooters on that
floor of the TSD or on multiple floors?
Second, The shots were not separated by an equal amount of time. People, some police
heard the first shot and then the second and third very close together. In addition the first shot
sounded like a firecracker and the other two were louder which could indicate a different weapon.
I do agree that there could be issues with the motorcycle cop's recording of the shots and where
he was in the motorcade route relating to the limo. That's a tough one for me.
Tom
you are absolutely correct...too many "coincidences" involved. Plus, you know the Dallas oil barrons hated JFK and loved LBJ....and JFK and LBJ hated each other!
I still believe he may have had a hand in this...Dallas mayor was in his pocket.......
but...as noted....we will not know for 100 years....if ever.
you are absolutely correct...too many "coincidences" involved. Plus, you know the Dallas oil barrons hated JFK and loved LBJ....and JFK and LBJ hated each other!
I still believe he may have had a hand in this...Dallas mayor was in his pocket.......
but...as noted....we will not know for 100 years....if ever.
Hope you guys don't mind an RU fan chiming in (the JFK thread on the RU board is on Current Events board and I've stopped posting there).
The problem with the conspiracy theories is that they don't hold water. As is the case with any major event such as this, there are things that are confusing, coincidental, hard to explain. But without some real evidence of the conspiracy, the single shooter, no conspiracy perspective holds sway.
The shots have been replicated many times. That someone could shoot in the time frame and hit the target has been established. That Oswald was a decent shot in the Marines has been established (and who knows how much time he spent improving his aim once out of the Marines).
There are no bullets from any other gun found. The bullets that were found came from Oswald's gun. He clearly shot JD Tippett in his escape. That he was the shooter is pretty clear as is the case that there were no other shooters.
But was he hired? Well, there are two very strong arguments agains that. First, why have him shoot the president and then not provide him with an escape? Why put him in the hands of the police to perhaps tell his story and then have to hire Ruby to kill him? Doesn't add up.
And second, and this has always been something with me, but rarely see it anywhere: Oswald went to work in the TBD well before the parade route (or even speaking venue) for Kennedy had been decided upon. Thus, a conspiracy with Oswald hired as the shooter would have to include Secret Service guys, politicos decided what would happen that day, etc., all working together to have his car go past the TBD to give Oswald the shot.
Simpler explanation: A guy who had already tried to kill a general, and just missed, saw the parade route, saw his chance for fame/lashing out against the unfairness in his life, etc., and took the opportunity.
I've been to Dealey as well, and agree that the shot does not look at all hard. I've also wondered why he didn't shoot him while he was coming up the street rather than going away, but clearly the going away shot is an easy one. My guess as I looked out the window is that he didn't have the nerve to shoot him face on. Or maybe he wasn't quite ready. Or maybe there was a tree branch, or Connolly turned around and blocked the view. Don't know.
But without a heck of a lot better alternative than we've seen so far, one that explains the evidence we know that exists, I'm pretty convinced it was Oswald on the Sixth Floor with the Manlicher-Carcano. Alone.
The problem with the conspiracy theories is that they don't hold water. As is the case with any major event such as this, there are things that are confusing, coincidental, hard to explain. But without some real evidence of the conspiracy, the single shooter, no conspiracy perspective holds sway.
The shots have been replicated many times. That someone could shoot in the time frame and hit the target has been established. That Oswald was a decent shot in the Marines has been established (and who knows how much time he spent improving his aim once out of the Marines).
There are no bullets from any other gun found. The bullets that were found came from Oswald's gun. He clearly shot JD Tippett in his escape. That he was the shooter is pretty clear as is the case that there were no other shooters.
But was he hired? Well, there are two very strong arguments agains that. First, why have him shoot the president and then not provide him with an escape? Why put him in the hands of the police to perhaps tell his story and then have to hire Ruby to kill him? Doesn't add up.
And second, and this has always been something with me, but rarely see it anywhere: Oswald went to work in the TBD well before the parade route (or even speaking venue) for Kennedy had been decided upon. Thus, a conspiracy with Oswald hired as the shooter would have to include Secret Service guys, politicos decided what would happen that day, etc., all working together to have his car go past the TBD to give Oswald the shot.
Simpler explanation: A guy who had already tried to kill a general, and just missed, saw the parade route, saw his chance for fame/lashing out against the unfairness in his life, etc., and took the opportunity.
I've been to Dealey as well, and agree that the shot does not look at all hard. I've also wondered why he didn't shoot him while he was coming up the street rather than going away, but clearly the going away shot is an easy one. My guess as I looked out the window is that he didn't have the nerve to shoot him face on. Or maybe he wasn't quite ready. Or maybe there was a tree branch, or Connolly turned around and blocked the view. Don't know.
But without a heck of a lot better alternative than we've seen so far, one that explains the evidence we know that exists, I'm pretty convinced it was Oswald on the Sixth Floor with the Manlicher-Carcano. Alone.
The head direction after the shooting is clearly explained by understanding the human anatomy. Tests from as far back as the forties show that when a bullet hits, the bullet and a nerve exploding can cause the exact reaction JFK had, first in the direction we would suppose, away from the snipers nest, and then the other way forced by the tauma to his body and how it reacted.
The car was going slow cause it was a political event, and JFK loved exploiting his charm and his wife for political gain. Also, it just turned a corner.
Oswald and Ruby met one time, when Ruby stuck a gun his in gut. The rest is gabbage. No one thinks Ruby used Oswalds gun or snuck into the Book Depository.
It is a fascinatiig subect. Read a few conspriracy books. Read something by Silva Meagher, a very sincere author on the subject. And also read something by Buliosi or Posner.
The answers are there, and they are pretty blatant. But we have to be ready to accept that there is no amazingly complex sinister cabal needed to effect the world so drastically, just some disaffected neer do well ex Marine Socialist who wanted to go down in history for something.
A few things that happened after the shooting are unforgivablely bad decisions. The way the JFK aids literally stole the body from the Dallas police who had proper jusrisdiction over it. Maybe that is sinister, or maybe that is a bunch of grief stricken men outraged that their boss got gunned down in some southern hick city and not letting them have any more to do with his body - never should have happened.
A more qualified man should have been selected to do the autopsy. No question about that.
I got all excited when the 70s House committee said conspiracy, but they based it one the most flimsy bogus piece of evident possible, the acoustic evidence that has been priven wrong in ten different way. They were dying to say it was a conspiracy and that was the best they came up with, and at the last second (talk about conspiracy...)Seing the Zapruter film back then with the head snap made me certain the grassy knoll was the key. Then I started reading. USSR, Cuba, Mafia, CIA, Secret Service, LBJ all did it. Am I missing any one? Just the other day there was a TV show exploring the theory that a Secret Servce guy in a car up front did it. The guy would have had to have been about 20 foot tall to shoot from so close and miss the windshield - minor fact, why bother discussing it. Gunman in sewers, forget that again the angel precludes it, or that those sewers didnt exists back them,
Excuse my preaching. But everybody thinks it is fishy, libs and birchers, black and while, christan and jew, atheist and believer. But you ask why and they give such BS reasons, usually totally disproved and often never even happeded except in an Ollie Stone script.
The car was going slow cause it was a political event, and JFK loved exploiting his charm and his wife for political gain. Also, it just turned a corner.
Oswald and Ruby met one time, when Ruby stuck a gun his in gut. The rest is gabbage. No one thinks Ruby used Oswalds gun or snuck into the Book Depository.
It is a fascinatiig subect. Read a few conspriracy books. Read something by Silva Meagher, a very sincere author on the subject. And also read something by Buliosi or Posner.
The answers are there, and they are pretty blatant. But we have to be ready to accept that there is no amazingly complex sinister cabal needed to effect the world so drastically, just some disaffected neer do well ex Marine Socialist who wanted to go down in history for something.
A few things that happened after the shooting are unforgivablely bad decisions. The way the JFK aids literally stole the body from the Dallas police who had proper jusrisdiction over it. Maybe that is sinister, or maybe that is a bunch of grief stricken men outraged that their boss got gunned down in some southern hick city and not letting them have any more to do with his body - never should have happened.
A more qualified man should have been selected to do the autopsy. No question about that.
I got all excited when the 70s House committee said conspiracy, but they based it one the most flimsy bogus piece of evident possible, the acoustic evidence that has been priven wrong in ten different way. They were dying to say it was a conspiracy and that was the best they came up with, and at the last second (talk about conspiracy...)Seing the Zapruter film back then with the head snap made me certain the grassy knoll was the key. Then I started reading. USSR, Cuba, Mafia, CIA, Secret Service, LBJ all did it. Am I missing any one? Just the other day there was a TV show exploring the theory that a Secret Servce guy in a car up front did it. The guy would have had to have been about 20 foot tall to shoot from so close and miss the windshield - minor fact, why bother discussing it. Gunman in sewers, forget that again the angel precludes it, or that those sewers didnt exists back them,
Excuse my preaching. But everybody thinks it is fishy, libs and birchers, black and while, christan and jew, atheist and believer. But you ask why and they give such BS reasons, usually totally disproved and often never even happeded except in an Ollie Stone script.
75, I just can't buy it's that simple. If it was that simple there wouldn't be such highly educated people, working at highly prestigious universities in this country still questioning it. I plan on reading and watching as much as I can the rest of my life, but I doubt I will ever have a definitive answer.
Anyone who saw the NOVA treatment last week would have to be impressed. They addressed every disputed forensic claim and convinced this skeptic that the Warren Report got it right.
HoopsFan,
I've been associated with highly (and moderately) prestigious institutions my whole life, and I can vouch for the fact that for many faculty members, once you take them five degrees outside of their direct field, they're the same bunch of bozos the rest of us are! I'm surprised some of them can find the building in the morning!
I've been associated with highly (and moderately) prestigious institutions my whole life, and I can vouch for the fact that for many faculty members, once you take them five degrees outside of their direct field, they're the same bunch of bozos the rest of us are! I'm surprised some of them can find the building in the morning!
The theories about LBJ being involved or more likely some of his suporters has some basis to it whether valid or not. At the time there were ongoing investigations into LBJ's finances. Namely allegations of kickbacks and questions about how he became so wealthy as a govenment employee. Both investigations ceased as he assumed the Presidency.
TK
Not sure what you mean by "saying things doesn't make them so." All I was doing was sharing a real life story of a guy who spent lots of time with Lee Harvey in the marines that I thought was interesting.
This post was edited on 11/22 6:25 PM by Section112
This post was edited on 11/22 6:25 PM by Section112
Oswald was not a marksman but the shot was easy and done by others with the same gun. I think Oswald acted alone and have 100 % confidence he pulled the trigger. The trip to Mexico he took right before the assassination is disturbing. Sadly, so much of what has been written is lies and they are repeated over and over so one believes it true when one starts doing so reading. And I have seen it written that every lie is by a conspiracy advocare. The scientific reenactment showing with precision how the bullet traces to Oswald perch (on TV show a few years ago) was very convincing. I think a lot of people wanted to kill him, and maybe even had people involved in the effort, like the Miami plot discussed by a guy named Milteer. But the murder was done I believe by nothing man Lee oswald. When I started my reading years ago, even before the JFK movie, I was certain it was a conspiracy. I think I was wrong.
