WTF is going on?

[Pirata]

So a couple quick points.

Trump admitted to going into the dressing room while the girls were naked. At least 5 girls said it creeped them out.

This is false. You have your events mixed up. You fabricating the teen situation as walking in on naked teen.

He entered the backstage dressing room at the 1997 teen pageant. There are no claims of naked. The girls were warned he was coming in and told to cover up. 5 had trouble with it. 11 say it likely did not happen.

Is it not odd that the 5 were not concerned about this until the election?

The admission you speak of refers to the adult pageants. I guess you have never been to Las Vegas or Broadway, let alone backstage. I guess you have never seen female reporters in the major league locker rooms.

For the record, I am not trying to defend Trump and I am not going to litigate what actually happened in 1997 with questionable sources.

You hijacked a thread due to your political bias with wrong facts. It gets old. Pete tried too start a conversation about a relevant topic. You have added nothing to the intent of the OP other than cause a stir.

 

[Pirata]

Also, spacey allegations are just that so far. He has not admitted guilt.

Yes, it is true that they are just allegations at present, albeit I agree with 85 that Spacey's response implies that it likely happened. I commend him for being truthful about it. I also wonder what parent lets their 14 year old go to cast party. That's another subject.

I like Spacey also. I though K-Pax was his one of best works. Midnight was another (in which he plays a gay character) I don't think Netflix should drop him. While I certainly don't condone the purported actions, I find it hard to "convict" someone on a 30 year old event based on a single person's testimony without a day in court.

"Rapp said Spacey picked him up, put him on his bed and "was trying to get with me sexually"

So what actually happened after that. Did Rapp say no and that was that. Did Rapp squirm and leave the room? Who knows?

But again, the bigger issue for this thread is that you are arguing minutia and missing the intent of the OP.

 

[Pirata]

But again, the bigger issue for this thread is that you are arguing minutia and missing the intent of the OP.

In an effort to get back to the OP.....

I am 5 episodes into Ken Burn's Vietnam. Episode 5 talks about the primal killer instincts of man. The dialogue suggests that deep down we all have he mental and physical instincts to kill. War just brings those instincts to action.

I think there is truth in that. We temper those instincts with a civilized society, contact sports, hunting, and other outlets.

I worked with homicide investigators at NYPD and they cited research that said there is an inherent murder rate related to domestic violence and gang on gang that cannot be reduced.

I think the same goes for sex. Our inherent instincts to reproduce are primal. We temper our sexual impulses in civil society but the underlying primal instincts are there. Some/many men have demonstrated that they have not controlled those instincts.

I mentioned before that the Internet has opened an incredible information dissemination capability. I think the sexual behavior has always been there. What's different is that we now find out about it instead of burying it.

 

[Merge]

This is false. You have your events mixed up. You fabricating the teen situation as walking in on naked teen.

“You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’” he continued. “And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that.”

Tasha Dixon, who competed as Miss Arizona at age 18, told CBS2 LA, “He just came strolling right in, there was no second to put a robe on or any sort of clothing or anything. Some girls were topless, other girls were naked.”

“Who do you complain to? He owns the pageant,” she added. “So there’s no one to complain to, everyone there works for him.”

Again, he brags about it, people accuse him of doing what he bragged about and you excuse it.

 

[Merge]

But again, the bigger issue for this thread is that you are arguing minutia and missing the intent of the OP.

I got the point of the thread. WTF relating to sexual misconduct allegations against men in positions of power.
I thought sexual misconduct allegations against Trump from 20 years ago were relevant to the sexual misconduct allegations against Spacey from 20 years ago when discussing sexual misconduct allegations against men in positions of power.

 

[Merge]

I mentioned before that the Internet has opened an incredible information dissemination capability. I think the sexual behavior has always been there. What's different is that we now find out about it instead of burying it.

That is true.

20 years ago, you would just be a person complaining to another person whereas today you can spread your allegations to millions of people in a few seconds.
For someone who acted inappropriately many times, that one person speaking out can have a snowballing effect of additional people speaking up on twitter like Weinstein, like spacey, like many others who I hope all get the level of public shaming / loss of careers and whatever else that they deserve.

 

[chickenbox]

Merge, you do a yeoman's job on these never-ending threads, but why do you keep it up? It's exhausting watching your commitment to intellectually honest argument with zero indication it will ever be returned.

 

[Pirata]

Merge, you do a yeoman's job on these never-ending threads, but why do you keep it up? It's exhausting watching your commitment to intellectually honest argument with zero indication it will ever be returned.

It certainly isn't being returned by you. Your intellectual test is whether someone agrees with you or not.

 

[Pirata]

“You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’” he continued. “And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that.”

Tasha Dixon, who competed as Miss Arizona at age 18, told CBS2 LA, “He just came strolling right in, there was no second to put a robe on or any sort of clothing or anything. Some girls were topless, other girls were naked.”

“Who do you complain to? He owns the pageant,” she added. “So there’s no one to complain to, everyone there works for him.”

Again, he brags about it, people accuse him of doing what he bragged about and you excuse it.

No one is excusing it, just calling your out on your misrepresentation.

Your quotes are from the adult pageant. One person from Arizona complaining there is a male in the dressing room. Welcome to Broadway.

You tried to imply underage teenagers. Yes she was a 18. Yes that is a teenager but it is also an adult. Dixon's recollection of the event were contradicted by other contestants. Lotas waffling from "naked, or at least half naked". Her opinions were converted to facts about Trump's motivations.

Dixon's complaints were brought forth during the most heated election in history. Did the election magically empower to relived this moment. While she claims no political bias, I would like to know the intent of the people who "uncovered this"

Bigger picture is you jumped on the WTF and added Trump to support your political views.I don't buy your assertion that the Trurm news was relative to the OP.

I agreed with you on Spacey. It was thirty years ago. It is great press but a bit unfair to bring that up now for the sake of headlines. IMO. I give Hall85 a pass because Spacey's incident was fresh in the news. I don't think it should be lumped in with the serial offenders. The Trump news was one year old and does not remotely belong in the same league as Weinstein.

BTW, now we have Dustin Hoffman thrown in the mix. Sound like another years old claim coming out of the wood works.

Hans Solo does like this.

 

[Merge]

Merge, you do a yeoman's job on these never-ending threads, but why do you keep it up? It's exhausting watching your commitment to intellectually honest argument with zero indication it will ever be returned.

I obviously enjoy political discussions but the other forums where I talk about politics tend to be more liberal.

This forum can get pretty amusing. The mental gymnastics in this thread alone is amazing.

 

[HALL85]

No one is excusing it, just calling your out on your misrepresentation.

Your quotes are from the adult pageant. One person from Arizona complaining there is a male in the dressing room. Welcome to Broadway.

You tried to imply underage teenagers. Yes she was a 18. Yes that is a teenager but it is also an adult. Dixon's recollection of the event were contradicted by other contestants. Lotas waffling from "naked, or at least half naked". Her opinions were converted to facts about Trump's motivations.

Dixon's complaints were brought forth during the most heated election in history. Did the election magically empower to relived this moment. While she claims no political bias, I would like to know the intent of the people who "uncovered this"

Bigger picture is you jumped on the WTF and added Trump to support your political views.I don't buy your assertion that the Trurm news was relative to the OP.

I agreed with you on Spacey. It was thirty years ago. It is great press but a bit unfair to bring that up now for the sake of headlines. IMO. I give Hall85 a pass because Spacey's incident was fresh in the news. I don't think it should be lumped in with the serial offenders. The Trump news was one year old and does not remotely belong in the same league as Weinstein.

BTW, now we have Dustin Hoffman thrown in the mix. Sound like another years old claim coming out of the wood works.

Hans Solo does like this.

Before Merge responds with another Trump post, The only reason I referenced Spacey was because he essentially admitted physical contact and it is pretty well-known about his current exploits. It is somewhat amusing that now stories are coming out regarding him grabbing man's genitals on the House of Cards set. (Just to be clear, actual grabbing of genitals not talking about them.)

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming: Trump, Trump, Trump.

 

[Pirata]

Merge, you do a yeoman's job on these never-ending threads

I agree. He is committed to his cause and works hard.

A truly noble opponent.

Dilly Dilly!

 

[Pirata]

Back to the OP.

I wonder if social media and the court of public opinion is to some degree taking the place of our legal court system.

It provides faster results with little effort.

The victim can get compensated from book, movies, and speaking deals. The offender gets punishment by loss of job, revenue, or reputation. The COPO is not bound by rules of evidence and other legal technicalities. It is not a long drawn out process. Immediate rebuts in some cases.

Compare the COPO to the legal system and the Cosby case.

For the Weinstein situation, the legal system may kick in. For the Spacey situation, the alleged victim would get nowhere in a legal court.

 

[Merge]

It is somewhat amusing that now stories are coming out regarding him grabbing man's genitals on the House of Cards set. (Just to be clear, actual grabbing of genitals not talking about them.)

Spacey admitted nothing. “If” is not as admission of guilt.

he didn’t even acknowledge that guy on the house of cards set. Clearly that guy is just an opportunistic hooker. I didn’t see a shred of proof it happened.

 

[HALL85]

Spacey admitted nothing. “If” is not as admission of guilt.

he didn’t even acknowledge that guy on the house of cards set. Clearly that guy is just an opportunistic hooker. I didn’t see a shred of proof it happened.

Did you not read my post? Twice I've said "he essentially did." Instead of constantly parsing words, why don't you opine on what appears to be an alarming trend?

 

[Merge]

He didn’t “Essentially”admit anything. You’re just twisting this to fit your original post while leaving out allegations so this conversation wouldn’t apply to Trump.

Like it or not, harrassment by powerful executives is a part of this conversation if you are gonna have it.

Which is alarming though? The trend of allegations or the trend of behavior? I don’t think trend in behavior has changed. I think trend in allegations has changed and I am not alarmed by that. I am happy about that.

 

[HALL85]

The trend of allegations is more disturbing. No secret about the "casting couch" but when you have people in power committing multiple rapes (Weinstein and Cosby), or engaging with minors (Weiner, and Spacey), it takes disturbing to a new level.

 

[Pirata]

Had dinner last night with our artistic director and his wife. I specifically asked him about his views on the Trump dressing room and Spacey. They both have been in the business a long time.

FWIW he is pretty opposed to Trump as a person. We have had those discussions before. On the dressing room issue, he had a two part answer. Part one was that women in major production dressing rooms need to get use to it. Part two was that he thought Trump was going in there for the wrong reasons.

His Spacey response was more troubling for me. He immediately said that Spacey is a known serial offender. He then proceeded to tell me that Spacey had hit on a mutual actor friend of ours. The friend is straight, now married. He was single and young at the time.