JETS/GIANTS QB'S & THE #1 DRAFT PICK

[Piratz]

Interesting discussion on Michael Kay show yesterday with Mike Tannenbaum who is ESPN’s former GM analyst this season. Lots of focus on Gase and when pushed by Kay , Tannenbaum admitted that the offensive genius reputation he had that led to his hiring in Miami is not there with the Jets. As to Jones he was adamant that Jones has the skills to be a good NFL QB if he cures his turnover problem and if the Giants put better talent around him at the OL and WR positions.

On Jones, you can see the skills. But many have had skills. Does he have the ability to manage the position properly? I agree he's compromised a bit given what's around him, but his pocket awareness, ball control, processing speed, and overall decision making have been AWFUL over the first 6 games. That's concerning. And these red zone turnovers, my God!

It could also be a new system without an offseason. Even with a full offseason, NFL coaches claim it takes about half a regular season to really command a new scheme.

 

[its haLL baLL]

I actually think Darnold will be successful in the league if he lands in the right spot. Coaching matters more than anything in the NFL. Look at Ryan Tannehill - a complete failure under Gase and now playing at a very high level in Tennessee. Good coaching can make an above-average QB look great and poor coaching can make him look terrible. The tools are there for Darnold to be successful. Unfortunately, he's in the worst spot in the league if you're a QB when it comes to talent and coaching.

Jones shows flashes. I'm pretty much in alignment with the author of this PFF article:

I was one of the people who were mildly high on Jones coming out. And by mildly high, I mean, if you drafted him at the back end of Round 1, I wouldn’t have argued.

The worry with me is how high his ceiling could go. Sure, he could be in rhythm to throws underneath all day, but could he consistently bury you downfield? While Drew Brees’ noodle arm has drawn all the headlines, Jones has quietly attempted only one more deep pass (10) than the Saints quarterback all season.

He’s never been quite accurate enough to operate the offense Brees does and certainly has not taken care of the ball well enough, either. He’s a capable starter, but if you’re trying to win a championship, I think you should set your sights a lot higher.

He did hit Slayton on a nice throw on Sunday, but he's erratic and a turnover machine. Can his decision making get better with experience? Certainly. But I'm skeptical that he ever turns into anything more than an average QB. Hopefully he proves me wrong and the Giants don't get stuck in QB purgatory for the next 5 years.

 

[Piratz]

He threw the ball deeper more frequently last year with Shurmur.

If you read any of the in-depth articles and screen grabs on the route combinations Garrett is running out there, the idea of going deep does not seem to be the design. Garrett is playing the same way he did with Elliott in Dallas or basically how the 1990's Cowboys played. It's constant ball control and ultimately that got him fired in Dallas as they never took advantage of their star power on offense.

The Cowboys had the #1 offense in the NFL in yardage last year and in terms of yards/play. But in a quarter of their games they scored only 15 points or less. NUTS. Hello 8-8 record.

 

[TomD82]

80 nad Piratz,

What do you think about Judge getting reps for other OL men? I know Thomas was late to a meeting that got him not to start, but Judge is really working Peart and the G from Oregon in. I like it. Under Reese if these late round picks got on the field they were like a deer in the headlights.

 

[hallgrad80]

80 nad Piratz,

What do you think about Judge getting reps for other OL men? I know Thomas was late to a meeting that got him not to start, but Judge is really working Peart and the G from Oregon in. I like it. Under Reese if these late round picks got on the field they were like a deer in the headlights.

I like it . The Giants are going nowhere this year and spotting Peart and Lemeiux to get game experience makes a lot of sense to me. Getting game time will give the coaching staff the ability to see just where the players stand in their development and identify what they have to work on to move into a starting position on the OL. While Lemeiux was a fifth round pick, Pearl was drafted in the third round , the 99th overall pick and that draft position is still viewed as a premium pick and I believe that with some seasoning it was the Giants belief that he could grow into being a starter . With Lemeiux , during the draft there was comments from several of the draft analysts that he could be moved to the center position , a big weakness for the Giants.

 

[hallgrad80]

On Jones all the negatives that have been identified are troublesome and yet he still have a certain skill set that says it’s too early to write him off. In evaluating Jones we have discussed how little talent he has around him especially on the OL , his lack of a high quality receiving corps and , for all practical purposes , no true running game. There is one other reasons for me that says it’s too early to write him off. Here’s why I say that:
1. The COVID - 19 virus limited significantly what work could be done in the off-season and pre- season .
2. In his season and a half he has had two head coaches.
3. In that same period he has had two OC’s ..
4. In that same period he has had two QB coaches .and
5. He has had two different offensive philosophies and schemes to learn .

I’m willing to give him another year under Judge before I label him another Gettleman flop.

 

[Section112]

What do you think about Judge getting reps for other OL men? I know Thomas was late to a meeting that got him not to start, but Judge is really working Peart and the G from Oregon in. I like it. Under Reese if these late round picks got on the field they were like a deer in the headlights.

Judge is walking the talk. He has said he is going to award players with time if they are working hard and showing it on the field. That is what he is doing even to his #1 pick. Players (except the #1 pick) love that and as a result will go through a wall for a coach. With more talent I am excited about Judge as well as the experienced staff he has surrounded himself with. The problem continues to lie at the top of the organization but have to give them credit for giving Judge a shot. So far I like what I see from our staff even with very bottom of the league talent.

 

[Piratz]

80 nad Piratz,

What do you think about Judge getting reps for other OL men? I know Thomas was late to a meeting that got him not to start, but Judge is really working Peart and the G from Oregon in. I like it. Under Reese if these late round picks got on the field they were like a deer in the headlights.

I like it too. This is a rebuild. Get these guys game action. The worst is wasting time with 4-5 win seasons with players who you know won't be around. These guys will be.

 

[Piratz]

On Jones all the negatives that have been identified are troublesome and yet he still have a certain skill set that says it’s too early to write him off. In evaluating Jones we have discussed how little talent he has around him especially on the OL , his lack of a high quality receiving corps and , for all practical purposes , no true running game. There is one other reasons for me that says it’s too early to write him off. Here’s why I say that:
1. The COVID - 19 virus limited significantly what work could be done in the off-season and pre- season .
2. In his season and a half he has had two head coaches.
3. In that same period he has head two OC’s ..
4. In that same period he has had two QB coaches .and
5. He has had two different offensive philosophies and schemes to learn .

I’m willing to give him another year under Judge before I label him another Gettleman flop.

I agree with this. But I will be more alarmed if we're sitting here in January saying we did not see any progress over the course of the season. Right now he's 6 games in and it's been status quo all 6.

 

[Section112]

Jones has to show he is progressing (agree with Piratz). He is 6 games in and has yet to put together a whole game without the big mistakes and TOs. Has to show even if he is pressured he is firmly in-charge of the offense and is making good decisions and winning games when they are on the line. He had a few great runs - hope to see some more of that sprinkled in at the right time - he is fast.

But the Giants won last week because of the defensive TD in the 4th quarter and Rivera gambled going for 2 at the end and the D made a big play to close it out. Jones was inconsistent in the second half again. No points. Second half possessions for Giants offense were Punt (after 6 plays/32 yards), killer interception in scoring position again (after a good drive of 14 plays and 73 yards), Punt (6 plays 15 yards).

He has to improve if he wants to be a week to week NFL QB when it counts. The talent is there. Hoping now that the offense is installed he can settle down even with the lack of talent around him and minimize those mistakes and make a big play or two when the game is on the line. Haven't seen that yet and hoping we do.

 

[TomD82]

The pass to Slayton was a beautiful throw which shows the skill. I wish they had more designed plays like that and matchups like where Washington had a 5"10 Love on a 6-6 TE. Also if I see another one of the TEs whiff on a block I will puke. They had him try to block Chase Young, he whiffed and that was part of the INT in the end zone.

 

[hallgrad80]

I don’t think anyone would disagree that seeing Jones make progress over the rest of the season is an absolute must but the reality is that unless the Giants want to invest another first round pick , unless it’s Lawrence , Jones is going to be this franchise‘s QB the remainder of this season and next year even if he doesn’t show the progress we need to see. For us long time Giant fans you know that Mara is not going to let them pull the plug on Jones after only two years .

 

[Piratz]

As far as immediate progress is concerned, the Eagles have gone 11-1 against the Giants over the past 6 seasons, including clean sweeps the past 3 years. The Giants have not won in Philadelphia since 2013.

Unbelievable.

 

[hallgrad80]

And in Cowboy Land the players are openly criticizing their coaches saying they are not very good and are not preparing the players to succeed . So much for the beginning of the McCarthy era in Dallas as they are playing as poorly as any team in the NFL led by a woeful defense.

 

[Jerry1992]

6-10 might win that division. Incredibly bad this year. 7 wins is most I can see division winner having.

 

[SHUSA]

Adam Gase might be the worst coach ive ever witnessed and im not sure ive seen a team actually quit by week 1. its really bad. the severity is something that could root deep in the culture and put them back for a while. the amount of apathy on that team is absurd.

not sure if the 0-16 lions, 3-36 hue jackson browns, and the 2000s bengals were this bad. they were still trying at this point. WOOF.

 

[Piratz]

And in Cowboy Land the players are openly criticizing their coaches saying they are not very good and are not preparing the players to succeed . So much for the beginning of the McCarthy era in Dallas as they are playing as poorly as any team in the NFL led by a woeful defense.

Suddenly the Garrett Era and perpetual 8-9-win seasons look good.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

As far as immediate progress is concerned, the Eagles have gone 11-1 against the Giants over the past 6 seasons, including clean sweeps the past 3 years. The Giants have not won in Philadelphia since 2013.

Unbelievable.

Eagles minus sanders, minus ertz

 

[Vegas pj]

6-10 might win that division. Incredibly bad this year. 7 wins is most I can see division winner having.

Probably correct. Preseason over/under win totals at The Book were: Cowgirls (10); Eagles (9 1/2); Giants (6 1/2); Team (5 1/2). None of these teams will meet or exceed those win totals based on their play to date.

 

[Piratz]

6-10 after 0-5 would be a dream for Giants fans! lol

 

[TomD82]

And in Cowboy Land the players are openly criticizing their coaches saying they are not very good and are not preparing the players to succeed . So much for the beginning of the McCarthy era in Dallas as they are playing as poorly as any team in the NFL led by a woeful defense.

Only the Giants can make Andy Dalton and Zeke Elliot look like world beaters. See what Arizona did to them last night and Murray completed 9 of 24 passes?

 

[SHUSA]

Eagles minus sanders, minus ertz

Its almost the entire offense. See in red everyone who is injured.

QB
RB1, RB2
WR1, WR2, WR3, WR4*, WR5, WR6, WR7, WR8, WR 9 (yes theyre going this high)
TE1, TE2, TE3, TE4
LT1 LT2 LT3
LG1 LG2 LG3
RG1 *RG2 RG3
RT1, RT2, RT3

 

[Burnsly]

Many of Jones' turnovers are unavoidable. Same with Eli in his later years. Give him ample protection & the to's will be reduced noticeably. It would also help if he had an open receiver once in a while.

 

[ponyfoot19]

And in Cowboy Land the players are openly criticizing their coaches saying they are not very good and are not preparing the players to succeed . So much for the beginning of the McCarthy era in Dallas as they are playing as poorly as any team in the NFL led by a woeful defense.

McCarthy has won a Super Bowl. He has a .615 winning percentage. Maybe he did a poor job preparing his team, but I tend to think the player's comments are more reflective of the pervasive attitude in America for the last several years, "players its not my fault but someone elses.

 

[NYC Pirate]

I'd say the defense shows flashes of respectability. Much better cornerback play than we have seen less the numerous coverage lapses which led to easy scores and long plays. Probably the best LB play we've witnessed as a group in some time. The DL is solid. Having said that they still can't seal the deal on defense at crunch time. Can't get that disruptive pressure late and two weeks in a row the Giants allowed receivers to get by them in late game situations. Trending up, but a ways to go.

Special Teams can compete with any team in the league. That can't be overlooked as they take stress away from the overall team game planning.

Garrett is a good OC, but sometimes he goes conservative at the worst times. I wish he would let Jones throw the ball down field inside the 50. It's looks like he wants to get deep before taking any valid attempts at scoring. The further they get in the redzone the harder it becomes for Jones as teams are packed in and are applying much more pressure. That's leading to a few of these crucial turnovers. I don't understand their use of Gallman at times. One week he's in and one week he's out. The offense needs to put the ball in the endzone two or three times a week for the Giants to become a good NFL team.

 

[Vegas pj]

The Book has Eagles -4 vs Giants (total 44 1/2) and Bills -12 vs Jets (total 46). Cowgirls -3 1/2 vs The Team (total 46).

 

[Piratz]

The coaching on the defensive side has been outstanding, especially when you consider how banged up they are. Graham has this defense 8th in the NFL in yards/play, 18th in net yards/pass attempt, and 5th in rushing yards/attempt and that comes against some very good teams.

The offense has been a house of horrors and that's why they're 1-5. If they had just league-average proficiency, they'd be at least 3-3 and in excellent shape considering the division. They just cannot score and are a turnover machine on offense. Last week same thing; 13 offensive points.

Right now I think most of it is scheme and either adjusting to Garrett's new system or the system itself isn't designed sharply:

**The Giants are 30th in points scored despite being 6th in average starting field position on offense.

**The Giants are 29th in % of drives ending in a turnover. Think back to the backbreaking turnovers by Jones in some of these games.

**The Giants are 31st in RZ TD% at 25%, ahead of only the lowly Jets and a mile behind the next closest team who is at 40%. Jones is the worst QB in the league in the RZ, with 14/32 passing (44%), just 1 TD and 3 INT. He the only QB in the league with a negative TD:INT ratio down there. It has killed them.

These are correctable issues. You have a QB who can run at times and should be heavily reliant on RPO looks in the RZ. Messy.

 

[Section112]

I actually like Garrett's play calls but the Giants and Jones are not executing. Usually starts with a break down in the blocking scheme and goes down hill from there. More RPOs would be better for sure in the red zone. I think Garrett is sticking with the run a lot because he has a young QB and he needs to take some pressure off him and because the O line seems to be improving on run blocking but is still terrible at pass blocking. Garrett is using much more motion than you ever saw in a Dallas offense and trying to get Jones to get the ball out quickly. The design seems to be working better but it stalls badly in the red zone. I wish he would use Gallman more. His numbers are very good. 5.1 yards per carry and a very good receiver. Does not have game breaking speed but he never goes down with first contact.

The D is improving for sure. Bradbury has been awesome and he is the best player on D. Martinez and our LB play has been much better. And we have some studs on the D line who can stop the run. Still missing that pass rush badly in key situations. Williams is 1.5 sacks better than last year and is still not earning that big contract so far. None of those sacks have come when the game is on the line. They will be looking hard for pass rushers AGAIN in next years draft. Most of their sacks have come from blitzing which puts the Dbacks on an island. Need more from the front 4 and it is just not happening.

 

[its haLL baLL]

The coaching on the defensive side has been outstanding, especially when you consider how banged up they are. Graham has this defense 8th in the NFL in yards/play, 18th in net yards/pass attempt, and 5th in rushing yards/attempt and that comes against some very good teams.

The offense has been a house of horrors and that's why they're 1-5. If they had just league-average proficiency, they'd be at least 3-3 and in excellent shape considering the division. They just cannot score and are a turnover machine on offense. Last week same thing; 13 offensive points.

Right now I think most of it is scheme and either adjusting to Garrett's new system or the system itself isn't designed sharply:

**The Giants are 30th in points scored despite being 6th in average starting field position on offense.

**The Giants are 29th in % of drives ending in a turnover. Think back to the backbreaking turnovers by Jones in some of these games.

**The Giants are 31st in RZ TD% at 25%, ahead of only the lowly Jets and a mile behind the next closest team who is at 40%. Jones is the worst QB in the league in the RZ, with 14/32 passing (44%), just 1 TD and 3 INT. He the only QB in the league with a negative TD:INT ratio down there. It has killed them.

These are correctable issues. You have a QB who can run at times and should be heavily reliant on RPO looks in the RZ. Messy.

All very good points. The defense, for not having a great passrusher, has been much improved. I've killed Gettleman since he got here, but the Bradberry and Martinez signings have worked out very well so far. If they can get a passrusher in either through the draft or free agency they will have a solid core to work with.

The offense is a different story. I've already mentioned I'm not sold on Jones, but I also think the Giants aren't playing to his strengths. Like you mentioned, there's no reason they shouldn't be using the RPO more with Jones athleticism. It will simplify things for him down there and hopefully reduce the turnovers. Maybe the terrible play of the O-Line early on made it difficult, but it's at least worth experimenting with.

They've finished in the top half of the league in offensive TDs per game once in the last 5 years, with that being last year which was aided by the final few games of the year against bad teams. They're currently tied for last with the Jets, averaging 1.0 per game. I don't know if its the personnel or the playcalling, but it's something that's been killing them for years.

 

[Section112]

The risk with the RPO is Jones holding onto the ball which has been a problem and I’m sure the staff is well aware of that. But on the other hand it makes defenses play 11 on 11 and Jones is fast. Used in the right situation it can be a weapon.

 

[Burnsly]

Garrett's play calling in the RZ has been my biggest issue. Enough with the drop back passes.

 

[Section112]

Garrett's play calling in the RZ has been my biggest issue. Enough with the drop back passes.

I think the reads have to come faster in the RZ and Jones is struggling there and then he hesitates and throws the pass and its either too late or the D is ready and intercepts the ball. The execution is bad and a defender seems to get in the backfield on almost every critical play blowing it up. Could be play calling, scheme and execution. The blame probably lies in all three areas.

 

[TheHall87]

The risk with the RPO is Jones holding onto the ball which has been a problem and I’m sure the staff is well aware of that. But on the other hand it makes defenses play 11 on 11 and Jones is fast. Used in the right situation it can be a weapon.

The other issue is over relying on Jones to run the ball will result in him being beat up and expose him to injury risk. It's a nice weapon to have but if Jones goes down the offense will look far worse than it does.

 

[Burnsly]

The Giants were inept in the Red Zone with Eli at QB because the defense didn't have to worry about him running the ball. With Jones it's different. I think the problem with sprint outs has to to with the pitiful blocking techniques of the tackles & TE's.

I saw the other night that Mike Remmers started for the Chiefs at tackle. He looked like a totally different player than with the Giants last year against a formidable Bills DL.

 

[Section112]

Evan Engram??? Catch the damn ball!

 

[TomD82]

Evan Engram??? Catch the damn ball!

I had to give him his own thread.

 

[SHUSA]

I'd say the defense shows flashes of respectability. Much better cornerback play than we have seen less the numerous coverage lapses which led to easy scores and long plays. Probably the best LB play we've witnessed as a group in some time. The DL is solid. Having said that they still can't seal the deal on defense at crunch time. Can't get that disruptive pressure late and two weeks in a row the Giants allowed receivers to get by them in late game situations. Trending up, but a ways to go.

Special Teams can compete with any team in the league. That can't be overlooked as they take stress away from the overall team game planning.

Garrett is a good OC, but sometimes he goes conservative at the worst times. I wish he would let Jones throw the ball down field inside the 50. It's looks like he wants to get deep before taking any valid attempts at scoring. The further they get in the redzone the harder it becomes for Jones as teams are packed in and are applying much more pressure. That's leading to a few of these crucial turnovers. I don't understand their use of Gallman at times. One week he's in and one week he's out. The offense needs to put the ball in the endzone two or three times a week for the Giants to become a good NFL team.

conservative? on 3rd and 6 to ice the game he took a shot downfield.

 

[NYC Pirate]

Don’t blame Jones for that loss. The Philly curse continues.,All things must go wrong and they do.
Even Jones falling down ahead of the field can be thrown in there although they scored anyway.

Ebner misses INT I believe. ThenLewis let guy get behind him. Three weeks in a row they let guys behind them. Of course Engram whiffs on biggest play of the year. Our first round draft picks aside from Jones are just killing us. Throw in Peppers too.

conservative? on 3rd and 6 to ice the game he took a shot downfield.

My post was from before the game was played?

I then posted one after the game about Jones.

 

[TomD82]

Troy Akiman had good things to say about Jones. And when he is having a pretty good game he still ends up with 2 TOs because of the situation his team puts him in.

 

[SHUSA]

Don’t blame Jones for that loss. The Philly curse continues.,All things must go wrong and they do.
Even Jones falling down ahead of the field can be thrown in there although they scored anyway.

Ebner misses INT I believe. ThenLewis let guy get behind him. Three weeks in a row they let guys behind them. Of course Engram whiffs on biggest play of the year. Our first round draft picks aside from Jones are just killing us. Throw in Peppers too.

My post was from before the game was played?

I then posted one after the game about Jones.

missed that. now u may know wht hes conservative LOL