here is some bad tom coughlin trivia he was the head coach of the last two teams that the vikings scored the most points on
A GIANT Embarrassment
- Thread starter NYC Pirate
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the giants have routinely had older head coaches in the modern era, no? parcells, handley, reeves, fassel, coughlin; i think sean payton would be a great fit if available; nfl execs recycle head coaches and coordinators out of stupidity and ignorance
I've never understood this point perpetuated by Francesa other than Francesa's typical ignorance and stubbornness. It's just more of the nonsense swirling when a team loses games and trying to find discord to fill conversation. In Gilbride's last year they were one of the worst rushing teams in the league and Eli had just thrown 25+ interceptions for the second time in 4 seasons. If that was "Tom's offense," good riddance.
Only Francesa would find a way to take something that was a positive change and improvement to the team and turn it into a negative conspiracy theory.
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Not really; 3 of those were younger and first-timers:
Bill Parcells was hired in 1983, the year he turned 42. He was a rookie NFL HC.
Ray Handley was a longtime staff member of Parcells and was hired to replace him in 1991 as a first time NFL HC and the thinking was he would just continue the Parcells program. Oops. He was 47 in 1991.
Dan Reeves was an established coach needed after the mess Handley left. He had coached the Broncos for 12 years and made 3 Super Bowls. Reeves was hired in 1993 at age 49 and went on to win Coach of The Year that first season. Then the salary cap went into effect, the Giants were not prepared and, well, the rebuild began with Dave Brown. That doomed the Reeves Era.
Jim Fassel was another first time NFL HC, 48 years old in 1997. The idea was he was a "QB guru" that could fix Dave Brown. Oops. They actually wanted to back out of the offer before it was made and potentially rehire Parcells at the time, as detailed in Ernie Accorsi's book. Fassel's final season was so bad it was literally unwatchable.
Tom Coughlin was hired to clean up what had become a messy organization under Fassel. He was the eldest coach (58) that they've hired. He, of course, spent 8 seasons in Jacksonville and took them from a start-up expansion franchise to two AFC Championship games and 4 playoff berths. Ironically Coughlin turned them down in 1993 when they eventually hired Reeves. Coughlin is seen as a Wellington Mara favorite.
When Coughlin was under fire in 2006 they were going to target Charlie Weis and Bobby Petrino. Yikes.
I'm lukewarm on Payton. He's had consecutive losing seasons and if the OBJ scenario is all the outcry, we're going to hire the Bountygate guy? And you'd have to give up draft picks.
piratz are you the team historian?
my point being is that out of all of these coaches, they were not some 30-something guy, they had ties to the team already or were a coach around the league
i liked jim fassel and it is a bit before my time but i know one of his kids went to shu
i actually think hue jackson deserves another shot as his time with the raiders was cut short
Piratz
Ray Perkins who preceded Parcells was the youngest head coach being hired at age 38. He was the OC for one year for the Chargers before being hired by the Giants and a WR coach for the Pats before joining the Chargers . If I remember correctly Perkins was George Young's first head coach hire for the Giants.
Ray Perkins who preceded Parcells was the youngest head coach being hired at age 38. He was the OC for one year for the Chargers before being hired by the Giants and a WR coach for the Pats before joining the Chargers . If I remember correctly Perkins was George Young's first head coach hire for the Giants.
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In the past 2 weeks alone his current team has given up 87! And don't forget the sparkling 52 the Saints hung on them earlier this year. Unreal.
And Fassel was a QB coach for Handley.
But it was different ownership and today is a completely different day and age. I have no clue what values John Mara has on this topic. I would think you need a veteran coach for a 35-year old franchise QB, but Eli is so easy going it probably doesn't matter.
Glad to hear it. Tiki was so critical of Coughlin when he left it always left a bad taste in my mouth because Coughlin turned his career around.
didn't the tisch fam come in around 90-91? i think john is dealing with the fact that his dad chose tom and it would be hard for him to dismiss his father's last choice; as a lifelong giants fan, they are really a good role model franchise for ownership, gm spot (3 gms since the late 70s), coughlin and eli now the longest tenured head coach/starting qb tandem in nfl history and that won't be touched going forward
It wasn't just the fumbling. Coughlin and staff turned Tiki into one of the best all-around featured backs in the NFL. He rushed for over 1,500 yards and amassed 2,000+ yards from scrimmage in each of his 3 seasons with Coughlin, neither of which had he done once in his previous 7 seasons with Fassel.
Tom had a lot of trouble with the players who grew up in Camp Fassel. He won some over (Strahan, seemingly Toomer) and others not so much (Barber, Shockey).
Tom had a lot of trouble with the players who grew up in Camp Fassel. He won some over (Strahan, seemingly Toomer) and others not so much (Barber, Shockey).
ray perkins left the giants to take over bama when bear bryant retired and became the bucs head coach in 87 and would have had bo jackson as his running back had high culverhouse not royally screwed up that situation but ray perkins did hire parcells, belichick and crennel so there's that
If Mara and Tisch are good business people (which I think they are) they have been planning for this scenario for some time behind the scenes. Hopefully they have been serious about the possibility of moving on from Coughlin and Reese given the last four years. The issue is you never know who is going to be available until the end of each year and that makes their planning more difficult unless they want to bring in an assistant. Needless to say the Giants job is a primo job in the league due to the stability they have shown for years. In addition with the cap space they will have to work with a new regime will have a good opportunity to make their mark quickly. I bet lots of candidates are probably throwing their hats in the ring or communicating interest through back channels. That is how its done.
There was a fracture in the Mara family between Wellington and his nephew Tim, who had inherited his share from Wellington's brother in the mid-60's. The dysfunction was spilling into the Giants organization, which is one of the reasons Rozelle intervened and pushed George Young on them to run the operation in the late-70's which sparked the turnaround. The Giants missed the playoffs altogether from 1964-80. Think about missing the playoffs for 17 seasons!
Tim Mara was the one who sold his share to the Robert Tisch around that time.
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here is hoping giants target this db in free agency
http://brobible.com/sports/article/san-diego-chargers-fine-eric-weddle-10k-daugher-halftime/
I'm actually a bit surprised at how much of a beating Coughlin is taking. I know the media has been at him with this stuff literally almost every year he's been here, but you'd think the guy was a complete derelict. This by the same media contingent that picked them to have a bad season anyway.
That OBJ situation really turned the worm, my God. Now you even have revisionist history with Damontre Moore; Pre-OBJ vs. Norman it was an example of Coughlin Discipline. Post-OBJ vs. Norman it was an example of a lost locker room.
That OBJ situation really turned the worm, my God. Now you even have revisionist history with Damontre Moore; Pre-OBJ vs. Norman it was an example of Coughlin Discipline. Post-OBJ vs. Norman it was an example of a lost locker room.
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Just remember that Kelly makes $3 mil at ND and Coughlin makes $7 mil with the Giants and money does talk .
for a short window shockey was a hell of a tight end but he was a primadonna and he wouldn't practice for smallish injuries and tom hated that
Kelly seriously considered coaching the Eagles and the Giants job is considered a much better one.
I'm not a Kelly advocate but pointing out some of the names out there and I never liked going for a college coach.
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Saw somewhere that Josh McDaniels would only interview for the Giants and Titans if asked. People in New England seem to think he's the heir apparent to Bellichick, but I'm not so sure.
I don't know if I see him fitting with the Giants. There's no way you hire McDaniels and keep McAdoo or his system - McDaniels will bring in his own. It's not all that different from what the Giants run now, but I'm with everyone here who would like to see the offense the Giants are currently running stay in place. Piratz shot me down before, but my hope is the Packers lose these next two games and Mike McCarthy gets canned. He'd be far and away my number one choice if available.
I don't know if I see him fitting with the Giants. There's no way you hire McDaniels and keep McAdoo or his system - McDaniels will bring in his own. It's not all that different from what the Giants run now, but I'm with everyone here who would like to see the offense the Giants are currently running stay in place. Piratz shot me down before, but my hope is the Packers lose these next two games and Mike McCarthy gets canned. He'd be far and away my number one choice if available.
What a lot of the talking heads are failing to mention is that if the Giants hire a new staff with different schemes, it's not just Eli learning a new system. It's the entire roster. And what if the current personnel designed to fit McAdoo's scheme doesn't work with the new coach? You're talking a few years. Again.
The Giants are in Year 2 of McAdoo and Year 1 of Spagnuolo. You'd like to see it continue with some talent upgrades because I do think they showed improvement in competitivenss this year over last.
The Giants are in Year 2 of McAdoo and Year 1 of Spagnuolo. You'd like to see it continue with some talent upgrades because I do think they showed improvement in competitivenss this year over last.
Piratz your comments are on point as usual but this line made me laugh. Think about it. Is the rotating TE each year part of McAdoo's scheme? Or how about the rotating RB? Or how about the weak O line? I get the receivers and Eli but that is all I can really see in matching personnel with McAdoo's scheme. It's the QB who has to make the reads and run the offense mainly with the receivers and RBs making the reads second. The O line has to pass block or run block. Sorry but I'm not buying it and with all the flux in personnel are they really losing much if they change and go with a similar system (like McDaniels). If the O line improves Eli has another 4 years in him I believe so making a change now is the way to go if they want to make a change at all. Retain McAdoo or adopt a similar scheme.
I don't want Kelly from ND.
We have to look at the entire picture here. It seems that Reese and Coughlin should be replaced. We start there. Mara should have been
forming a plan for the last several weeks or months in case this season went South.
Eli is a big boy and he'll have to adjust one way or another. I believe he'll be fine as long as they stabilize the OL and get him better talent in the receiving corps.
It's time for the change. Yes, the Coughlin that was here for the decade may be difficult to replace, but we have to be honest and say that there are people out there that can get this ship moving in he right direction again. I'd like to see them an announcement before this weekend's game and start the process in a classy manner.
We have to look at the entire picture here. It seems that Reese and Coughlin should be replaced. We start there. Mara should have been
forming a plan for the last several weeks or months in case this season went South.
Eli is a big boy and he'll have to adjust one way or another. I believe he'll be fine as long as they stabilize the OL and get him better talent in the receiving corps.
It's time for the change. Yes, the Coughlin that was here for the decade may be difficult to replace, but we have to be honest and say that there are people out there that can get this ship moving in he right direction again. I'd like to see them an announcement before this weekend's game and start the process in a classy manner.
If you don't block or tackle, it doesn't matter what offense or defense you run. I'm with whoever said now is the time for a clean break. Heck, if the Giants could have protected Eli at the end of the Kevin Gilbride era, they wouldn't have have had to switch to the quick-hitting West Coast offense. Say what you want about Gilbride--Killdrive, or whatever-- at least his offense was fun to watch.
I think that's a really simple way of looking at offensive football in the NFL, Section112. I think your post is dovetailing two separate issues:
1). Offensive Systems: People don't realize the amount of work that goes into it. Blocking schemes, terminology, what's asked of each player within a given play, and so on and so forth. Look at what this offense does at the line of scrimmage, for instance. And Eli's not even perfect with it yet as it is only Year 2. Look what happened in Dallas (which Coughlin covered for, BTW) or the audible he made against the Jets and Patriots.
McAdoo's system is based on timing, changes at the line, varied formations and interchangable personnel groups. The offense progressed. They're a couple of pieces away from being really good and really balanced. Hoping there's a smooth transition if there's a new coach.
Eli Manning is the most important player to the Giants. You need him to be at his best to turn this around regardless of coaching. Success in football comes from stability. Not a carousel of system changes. In a few years you'll be looking for a QB anyway and the offensive side of the ball is not the reason they're losing. Despite miscues in the games I mentioned above, the defense still was the culprit. Ideally they find something to jive with McAdoo in order to maximize Eli's remaining years. Why even introduce the potential of growing paints of a new system with only a few years left for Eli?
2). Personnel: The Giants allowed their offensive line to deteriorate and age so badly that it imploded in 2013. That's why it couldn't block. You were relying on 30-somethings that were beaten down and never drafted or developed capable young back-ups. So they've been chasing it ever since with #1 or #2 picks (Pugh, Flowers, and Richburg). They're still not done. The RH side needs to be rebuilt.
The tight ends change because of injury. But the UDFA's they are promoting (Donnel, Tye, LaCosse) are all promoted form their practice squad anyway. You would have trouble importing a FA TE in the middle of the season.
Randle is not a good football player and Cruz hasn't played in two years. Maybe take a flier on Cruz at a lower cap nubmer, but Randle must go. He was breaking off routes with Gilbride too. Another bust. He needs to be replaced this offseason and get a guy in here to train with Eli and OBJ.
I like the mix of runners they have. I do not understand the rotation, but the strategy of rotating them plays into McAdoo's style.
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Piratz
In reality because of the number of areas that need to be upgraded it will take more then one year for this team to be competitive again . The other issue about Manning having to learn a new offensive system , he's a smart , highly experienced pro who works hard and he can handle adjusting to a new system even if the full benefits won't show until year two. The other issue no one is talking about is the simple truth that there will be more then the usual number of new faces on the roster and that will also involve a longer learning curve for them as well as fitting them into the lineup. That's why I see next year as a complete rebuilding year and getting a new coach and a new GM planning how to get the Giants back to a playoff team with their type of players that fit their offensive and defensive philosophies.
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I actually disagree with this. I don't think they're far away, I really don't. They need significant upgrades on the defensive side of the ball for sure. Offense needs a couple of tweaks, which are manageable; other OL (Beatty?) and a WR2.
Not in this day and age. Look at the Buffalo Bills for example. Look at their defensive talent and what they did last year against this year. How did they drop off so badly? They're not injured. They didn't lose free agents. They drafted well. They hired a defensive-oriented head coach.
So what happened?
Scheme. System. Schwartz had a wide-9 setup, Rex does not. This is why the players were chirping.
For one of those rare times I have to disagree with you. The offense needs two OL , both on the right side, one WR who can compliment ODB as I don't see Randle here next year and Cruz is a big question mark plus two back-up WR's. They need to seriously upgrade the TE position and need another solid RB to go with Jennings who will be 31 next year. Vereen is a solid third down back but is not an every down player. Even as important is where is there any depth behind the starters on the OL , with injuries so common on the OL you need solid back-ups and the Giants couldn't even find 5 quality starters this year. Certainly John Jerry and " never make a block" Newhouse have not been nor ever will be the answer even as backups.
By my count the Giants need on offense:
2 starting OL
1 starting WR
1 starting TE
1 RB to share time with Jennings
2 back-up WR's
3 back-up OL
That's more then a few tweaks in my mind. IMO the most difficult task for the Giants on offense will be to find OL a position that just about every team in the NFL will be looking for. With defense a pressing need I could see the Giants go for a DL and a DB with their first two picks in the draft which means they need to address their offensive needs primarily thru free agency and with their other 5 picks in the draft. That's primarily why I keep saying rebuilding the Giants will be at least a two year time frame .
hallgrad,
I say that because I'm looking at it as a net sum between offense, defense, and ST's. I agree with most of wfhat you're saying, I just don't know if you can perfectly build out that kind of deep unit in this day and age in the NFL with the cap and the Giants still having to recover from the previous bad drafts and eventually having to pay the guys they recently drafted.
Look at all the bad players on defense. If you just get league-average players in those spots it makes a world of difference. That helps the offense too.
I don't think they're going TE. That would buck their trend. Assuming McAdoo is still here, he's also a TE coach. I think they like the progression of Donnel (if healthy) and now Tye. Maybe they get a blocking TE. I'd make a play for Dewayne Allen of the Colts if it were me because then you have both a blocker and sure-handed catcher. But there are bidding wars for TE's now.
OL depth is so hard to find. I'm bringing back Beatty and/or Schwartz at reduced cap numbers, so I only need to spend on one OL FA. I think this kid Hart deserves more of a look in a back-up role, too.
I think WR and RB are the easiest slots to find either draft or FA. Just need Reese to admit the Randle situation was a mess and do not rely on Cruz.
I say that because I'm looking at it as a net sum between offense, defense, and ST's. I agree with most of wfhat you're saying, I just don't know if you can perfectly build out that kind of deep unit in this day and age in the NFL with the cap and the Giants still having to recover from the previous bad drafts and eventually having to pay the guys they recently drafted.
Look at all the bad players on defense. If you just get league-average players in those spots it makes a world of difference. That helps the offense too.
I don't think they're going TE. That would buck their trend. Assuming McAdoo is still here, he's also a TE coach. I think they like the progression of Donnel (if healthy) and now Tye. Maybe they get a blocking TE. I'd make a play for Dewayne Allen of the Colts if it were me because then you have both a blocker and sure-handed catcher. But there are bidding wars for TE's now.
OL depth is so hard to find. I'm bringing back Beatty and/or Schwartz at reduced cap numbers, so I only need to spend on one OL FA. I think this kid Hart deserves more of a look in a back-up role, too.
I think WR and RB are the easiest slots to find either draft or FA. Just need Reese to admit the Randle situation was a mess and do not rely on Cruz.
You must be kidding. An RB to share time with Jennings? RBs are a dime a dozen now. Most teams won't even pick an RB in the 1st round any longer. Did Arizona or the Jets need to find an RB to get good? Isn't NE on like their 4th RB this year? A starting TE a necessity? Was Jake Ballard a starting TE you are talking about or Kevin Boss? This team is 2-3 players away from a playoff team with a bye and that is without using mostly FAs like say Denver has done. NFL rosters turnover in 3 years and you keep talking about players that are no longer on rosters. The injury attrition rate alone is so high. Was Terrell Thomas not a good draft pick because in torn his ACL twice neither which was in a real game?
Food for thought to apply to a season where the coach blew 3 winss at least.
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2012/5/31/3055787/how-easy-is-it-to-fix-an-nfl-team-in-one-season
Food for thought to apply to a season where the coach blew 3 winss at least.
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2012/5/31/3055787/how-easy-is-it-to-fix-an-nfl-team-in-one-season
If you think that the woeful Giants are 2-3 players away from a playoff team let alone a playoff team with a bye you not only are the only Giant fan who believes that but it is contrary to what every media professional from former GM's , coaches, players and analysts believe . It's your dream world so live in it. Oh , bye the way the Jets got a great year from a RB named Ivory who has run for 989 yards, caught 30 passes and got 48 first downs rushing for the Jets and would Fitzpatrick have had the year he had w/o his two outstanding WR's . On your other point on roster turnover successful teams have a group of core players that remain with their team and the majority of them are players they drafted and allow teams to build around them.
Piratz
I understand the points you're making but I seen a change coming as I believe the NFL will increase roster size as there is a demonstrated need to do so and if they do I can see the draft being increased to maybe 9 rounds.
I definitely don't see Schartz coming back and the Giants won't pay Beatty $9 mil next year so I see them releasing him. Just as with Cruz I see them releasing him but try to resign him at a lower figure and possibly offering Beatty a much lower contract but I see Beatty and his agent saying that as a LT he can get more money elsewhere.
Remember the Giants cap space is only $38 mil and the $50 mil being thrown around is the result of cutting Cruz , Beatty , Schwartz and a couple of others .
I'm going to put the game management decisions aside for a second. I really thought there were only two games where that was an issue, the game in Dallas the Jets.
For now, just looking at the players who did not make plays they were in position to make. This year the Giants had too many players that are poor players playing too much. Well below league average. Some of them were just recycled veterans off the scrap heap, others were inexperienced rookies and the like. For a team that was playing so many close games and already handicapped by a bad defense, in those big moments opposing teams either targeted those players or the spotlight found them. Repeatedly.
Think of how many times the following players were in position to make game-winning plays or were totally beaten in critical situations throughout games:
Randle (WR)
Newhouse (OT)
Dahl (S)
Taylor (S)
Meriweather (S)
Unga (LB)
Casillas (LB)
Hosley (CB)
Williams (RB)
Moore (DE)
That's a high percentage of players out of 22 offensive/defensive position players.
I kept Landon Collins off that list, but easily could've put him on, but the kid has upside talent and was being asked to do way too much because of other situations. But he did make too many mistakes even for a rookie, especially that pick against NE).
For now, just looking at the players who did not make plays they were in position to make. This year the Giants had too many players that are poor players playing too much. Well below league average. Some of them were just recycled veterans off the scrap heap, others were inexperienced rookies and the like. For a team that was playing so many close games and already handicapped by a bad defense, in those big moments opposing teams either targeted those players or the spotlight found them. Repeatedly.
Think of how many times the following players were in position to make game-winning plays or were totally beaten in critical situations throughout games:
Randle (WR)
Newhouse (OT)
Dahl (S)
Taylor (S)
Meriweather (S)
Unga (LB)
Casillas (LB)
Hosley (CB)
Williams (RB)
Moore (DE)
That's a high percentage of players out of 22 offensive/defensive position players.
I kept Landon Collins off that list, but easily could've put him on, but the kid has upside talent and was being asked to do way too much because of other situations. But he did make too many mistakes even for a rookie, especially that pick against NE).
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Creative way to look at it Piratz and what also didn't help was the loss of a couple of their draft choices to injury particularly Owa - Odighizuwa the DE their third round pick as well as Thompson , the DB and Davis the WR in the 4th and 5th round .
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