Please hit link for story
This post was edited on 3/10 2:51 PM by Halldan1
http://www.app.com/story/sports/college/2015/03/10
This post was edited on 3/10 2:51 PM by Halldan1
http://www.app.com/story/sports/college/2015/03/10
Carino on essentially why Willard is staying...
- Thread starter dcPirate
- Start date
Program building is based on year to year progress not regression. You can't build a program unless you can add quality talent every year and Willard 'hasn't proven he can do that. If Carino is pushing the school's party line on why Willard is getting a sixth year , as weak as that party line is, the school should as least have put that line out there directly to its fan base.
It would appear to me that IW wouldn't go anywhere as he's not going to want to sit out a year and he wouldn't seem to have put himself into a position to get drafted even in the 2nd round. We still have no guarantee Gibbs will be back next year. If the Delgado thread not too long ago was accurate about him wanting to play 1 more year then declare, he's not going anywhere either.
Seems like just a long list of excuses more than anything. We have certainly become accustomed to excuses at The Hall recently, but mainly from the HC.
The fact that in hindsight (in terms of on court performance) The Hall pulled the trigger too quick on Orr seems like a poor excuse as well. All the coaching decisions did not happen in vacuum, they were each made separately and for what appeared to be valid reason at the time. So KW gets a bit of a pass b/c the admin did or did not make proper coaching changes in the past.
Ok, I get it...
Donnie, I 100% completely agree that it should have been done and was proud of Willard for doing so. The fact that it is being used more than once in the article about why he is staying seems absurd imo.
This post was edited on 3/10 2:41 PM by dcPirate
The reasoning provided by Carino makes a lot more sense than what has been stated around here (that the buyout is exclusively, or at least almost exclusively, driving the decision). I'm not saying I agree with it, but if the school wants to give Willard a sixth year in order to improve perception and help sell the next coach on the University's commitment to program building, I can respect that logic. They're going to lose a lot of fans though. Plus, who knows what other schools they will be competing against for coaches next year (Seton Hall could be one of the better jobs open this year).
If I were a fly on the wall of Machiavelli's private executive bathroom, here's what I believe I have heard discussed in the stalls while the powers were dropping a deuce:
1) Regardless of the 200 die-hard fans who will scream themselves to death but pony up bupkis, we have 10 killer true blue donors will drop coin, 3000-4000 true-blue fans who happily drop a bit of coin unknowing of all this mess, and thousands more true blue bandwagoneers who will come and go no matter what we do.
2) The image of a stable program, including continued building of endowment (call for blue sugar daddies, step on up), and association with great (or perhaps "gr8") initiatives, especially the medical school, is everything we need right now to maintain US News and World Reports standing, etc, etc.
3) We can milk this BE and Fox Sports contract for a number of years - reason being, we get to the cheap back end of the contract, we get to focus on medical school, we expect to lose an average of 200 ticket holders a year for five years if we do nothing, so boys, there is NO REASON to do anything but ride the gravy train.
4) If it gets "bad" (some horrible definition, whatever it may be), we'll have saved ourselves a crap ton of money, we can bring on some bright young feller from the NEC or SWAC or who knows WTF Elbonian BB Conference, and we'll get an automatic bump up.
If you have the stomach to work at these machiavellian levels, who knows, maybe that's what it is all about.
Like SPK says, it's really clear that we have to treat winning and losing like the administration does - a win is nice when it happens, accept losing as the status quo.
I'm not trying to stir the pot. Really. I'm writing this with a placid sense of understanding and acceptance.
It tells me that the money we spend should be considered "entertainment dollars" - not "investment in something with a goal". That's my firmest and best conclusion.[/B]
1) Regardless of the 200 die-hard fans who will scream themselves to death but pony up bupkis, we have 10 killer true blue donors will drop coin, 3000-4000 true-blue fans who happily drop a bit of coin unknowing of all this mess, and thousands more true blue bandwagoneers who will come and go no matter what we do.
2) The image of a stable program, including continued building of endowment (call for blue sugar daddies, step on up), and association with great (or perhaps "gr8") initiatives, especially the medical school, is everything we need right now to maintain US News and World Reports standing, etc, etc.
3) We can milk this BE and Fox Sports contract for a number of years - reason being, we get to the cheap back end of the contract, we get to focus on medical school, we expect to lose an average of 200 ticket holders a year for five years if we do nothing, so boys, there is NO REASON to do anything but ride the gravy train.
4) If it gets "bad" (some horrible definition, whatever it may be), we'll have saved ourselves a crap ton of money, we can bring on some bright young feller from the NEC or SWAC or who knows WTF Elbonian BB Conference, and we'll get an automatic bump up.
If you have the stomach to work at these machiavellian levels, who knows, maybe that's what it is all about.
Like SPK says, it's really clear that we have to treat winning and losing like the administration does - a win is nice when it happens, accept losing as the status quo.
I'm not trying to stir the pot. Really. I'm writing this with a placid sense of understanding and acceptance.
It tells me that the money we spend should be considered "entertainment dollars" - not "investment in something with a goal". That's my firmest and best conclusion.[/B]
This was exactly my rationale. IW and AD, if looking for quick paths to the NBA, will not transfer and sit out. I suppose overseas/D-league could be a possibility but that seems unlikely. Then you have Desi and Carrington who perhaps stick around to play with their buddies. And just maybe you still have a good nucleus willing to work with a new coach. Same thing for Mike Nzei who has 4 years to play 4 seaons, I believe.
The school refers to "rebuilding" and giving a guy time, which I have no issue with on its face. The problem here is that this whole thing is built primarily around a singular recruiting class that was brought here mostly for reasons other than the head coach. There hasn't been a shred of "building" going on here as evidenced by the 2015 recruiting class. Zero momentum. In a nutshell this represents my biggest fear/concern moving forward.
TBP, while you write entertaining fiction, there is a lot of speculation in there. I personally believe that the President understands the importance of MBB as one of the major faces of the University, as does the BOR -- whose members include many who are strong supporters of the Pirates, many of whom are not happy at all with losing.
Understood and not unfair points on your part. I have to believe that some of my comedy is a bit closer to the truth than we would want. I have to believe that there is some business case reasoning behind this - how many years can you go with this program floundering before you do too much damage, etc.
I don't think this article shed any light on anything we did not know already. Seton Hall financially committed to Kevin Willard to a surprisingly long period of time and for big money. The twist of the article is that it implies that since Seton Hall will spend big money for a long term deal, this will be viewed favorably to coaches when the job becomes open.
Yes, you too can be incompetent and get a long term big money deal from SHU. This should attract tons of qualified coaches over the next up coming decades.
Yes, you too can be incompetent and get a long term big money deal from SHU. This should attract tons of qualified coaches over the next up coming decades.
Exactly. It's sad that none of the reasons for retaining him have anything to do with thinking he is good at the most essential parts of his job: coaching, managing players or recruiting. The reasons boils down to people think we change coaches too frequently, players haven't gotten arrested, and we think he deserves another year to try to win games with the new players the assistant coaches he hired brought with them, though he admittedlon has a long way to go on knowing how to control those players.
Agree. Whether we make a change this year or next is not gonna make a difference in attracting good coaches to our program. If RU makes a change and can keep Mack and Jack then we can keep lots of our kids too if it's done correctly. It was about money make no mistake about it.
What a magnificent pile of manure this is. Stability? Program building? More time to coach? Big East record + recruiting without assistant positions to give away + product on the court = all that we need to see. Some person or several persons, royally effed up the contract and the school can't afford to punt. We got it. Just own your colossal failure and don't try to pass this crap off through a media ally.
You know it's bad when the press call a "relatively good week" one in which you lose both games, you're heading into the BET where everyone is eligible to play and the high point is letting an opposing player score unguarded. I feel much better now.....
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
Unless you're suggesting Carino is in SHU's pocket like the Fox guys, Willard didn't make Carino go heavy on the Adams' angle.
bottom line is that as much as most of us realize that Sports can do a lot to put SHU on the map, most of the high level Administrators you find like Esteban don't have a clue when it comes to running Athletics program and focus their time and energy on the Academic side. The Medical School expansion is a major advancement for SHU and if Esteban was the driving force behind that, he deserves a ton of credit.
I actually believe key alum who put their money where their mouths will truly be a driving force behind any changes for Athletics. Someone in that realm who are donating high 5 figures or 6 figures (assuming we still have some of those) would need to stand up and say enough is enough. Otherwise, the status quo could continue.
I actually believe key alum who put their money where their mouths will truly be a driving force behind any changes for Athletics. Someone in that realm who are donating high 5 figures or 6 figures (assuming we still have some of those) would need to stand up and say enough is enough. Otherwise, the status quo could continue.
Anyone who thinks that there is some top notch coach somewhere watching this and saying that Seton Hall is a more attractive coaching destination because they give their coach a real chance to build the program is truly delusional. What attracts a top coach to a program is MONEY and not willowy platitudes.
I don't think Jerry is in anyone's pocket. I think SHU reached out to do a story with someone who is SHU friendly(Jerry is a grad) and get their fluff out there. Someone who isn't so SHU compasionate might of torn them to shreds on this.
Their reasons are a joke at best.
Their reasons are a joke at best.
"After Seton Hall fired Louis Orr coming off a second NCAA Tournament
appearance in three years, the pool of quality candidates who wanted the
job was weak"
Because we couldn't find any quality candidates 9 years and 2 coaches ago we'll just keep the current chump we have even though he has proven to be completely inept. You can't make this stuff up. Hey Lyons, finding a quality candidate is kinda sorta your job you know?
Providence didn't seem to have any problem finding a quality candidate when they canned their clueless coach after a mere three seasons. We're going into year six?!?!?!?!? SIX?!?!?!?!??! MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!
Forget about ever competing with the marquee programs in this league, the Villanovas and Georgetowns. We're now hopelessly behind Providence, the one school that was always looked upon as, along with us, being the toughest job in the league. Providence was our peer. Now we're getting curb-stomped by even them. We're hopeless. I feel so stupid for having supported this program as long as I did. A multi-thousand dollar mistake. I'm out now, way too late.
appearance in three years, the pool of quality candidates who wanted the
job was weak"
Because we couldn't find any quality candidates 9 years and 2 coaches ago we'll just keep the current chump we have even though he has proven to be completely inept. You can't make this stuff up. Hey Lyons, finding a quality candidate is kinda sorta your job you know?
Providence didn't seem to have any problem finding a quality candidate when they canned their clueless coach after a mere three seasons. We're going into year six?!?!?!?!? SIX?!?!?!?!??! MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!
Forget about ever competing with the marquee programs in this league, the Villanovas and Georgetowns. We're now hopelessly behind Providence, the one school that was always looked upon as, along with us, being the toughest job in the league. Providence was our peer. Now we're getting curb-stomped by even them. We're hopeless. I feel so stupid for having supported this program as long as I did. A multi-thousand dollar mistake. I'm out now, way too late.
I certainly understand the school not wanting to make yet another change after 5 years. It's a perfectly legitimate point.
However, you're not building a program when your Big East record goes from 8-10 in Year 2, to 3-15 in Year 3, to 6-12 in both Year 4 and Year 5. That's stagnation.
Also, the fear of transfers is ridiculous. We should not fear players leaving for any reason. It's part of college basketball these days and it'll happen whether Willard stays or goes. If there is a "mass exodus" (unlikely), hire a new coach and let him rebuild. Maybe a new coach will actually be able to build a program.
However, you're not building a program when your Big East record goes from 8-10 in Year 2, to 3-15 in Year 3, to 6-12 in both Year 4 and Year 5. That's stagnation.
Also, the fear of transfers is ridiculous. We should not fear players leaving for any reason. It's part of college basketball these days and it'll happen whether Willard stays or goes. If there is a "mass exodus" (unlikely), hire a new coach and let him rebuild. Maybe a new coach will actually be able to build a program.
The argument about keeping Willard to keep kids from transferring is weak. Every year under Willard we have had transfers. What is going to be different this year? We already lost Sina. Who is next out the door?
Also weak is keeping him to show commitment to building a program.
Blaney was a dud and needed to go.
A maker dumped us.
Orr was a decent coach but wanted a 9-5 job.
Gonzo was a mad man who's wife would not let him leave the house to recruit.
Now we have Willard. Clearly not the right man for the job but we keep him just because the others have not worked out. That is like marring the town pig because your last girlfriend wasn't right for you.
Also weak is keeping him to show commitment to building a program.
Blaney was a dud and needed to go.
A maker dumped us.
Orr was a decent coach but wanted a 9-5 job.
Gonzo was a mad man who's wife would not let him leave the house to recruit.
Now we have Willard. Clearly not the right man for the job but we keep him just because the others have not worked out. That is like marring the town pig because your last girlfriend wasn't right for you.
I cant believe that we are at this point with Willard and the University. 2 years ago the NEW BIG EAST was formed and a relationship with FOX TV. We were all so hopeful and look at whats happened. In year 4 and 5 a program should be going up not down like we are. Carrino is a good guy but I don't know as a SHU alum he seems to be on Willards side here. I love stability but I don't care if we have to change coaches every 3 years . If they are the wrong hire then make the change take responsibility until the school gets it right. Have to give credit to BLUEBEARD for these stats. Oliver Purnell of DePaul is in his fourth year and his Big East record is 9 - 57. He has a 4-3 recor against Willard and against all other league coaches he is 5 - 54. And the school wants to keep Willard. Well to the BOR Pat Lyons and DR. Esteban an whoever else may be involved HAVE A GREAT TIME WATCHING MANHATTAN FOR THE SECOND STRAIGHT YEAR IN THE NCAAS. Little Manhattan second time in 2 years and we have 0 in 9 years and 3 in the last 21. Have some guts ADMINISTRATION. ADMIT YOU MADE A MISTAKE AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE BY DOING THAT YOU MAY FINALLY GET THE RESPECT FROM THE HIGH SCHOOL AND AAU COACHES AND ANY POTENTIAL CANDIDATE FOR THIS JOB. But I guess we just don't have it. And if we win tomorrow please don't make like things are all of a sudden looking great. Incredible.
re: Willard and/or the schools PR Stunt
1) first clue: anyone who doubts that Willard pulled a PR stunt should take note of how aggressively it is being milked, including by Willard himself , most brazenly. It's intention and purpose is clear: to fit a narrative that Willard and the school wants out their to justify its support. Ie that Willard is the anti-Gonzo.
2) 2nd clue: If you do something truly for the sake of being a good person, you'd probably be a lot more modest about it and downplay it - Willard has done the exact opposite. He's playing it up to the point where he is showing his hand now. I get that he wa asked a question again on the call, but he was asked by Carino.
3) 3rd clue: Willard's original quote after the GU game talked about a "greater responsibility than just basketball." His second quote yesterday revolved around how "hard work needs to be rewarded." Why are those significant? Because that are how Willard sees his own strengths. In two bullet points, that's his pitch to remain head coach:
- I cleaned up the program
- I work really hard
1) first clue: anyone who doubts that Willard pulled a PR stunt should take note of how aggressively it is being milked, including by Willard himself , most brazenly. It's intention and purpose is clear: to fit a narrative that Willard and the school wants out their to justify its support. Ie that Willard is the anti-Gonzo.
2) 2nd clue: If you do something truly for the sake of being a good person, you'd probably be a lot more modest about it and downplay it - Willard has done the exact opposite. He's playing it up to the point where he is showing his hand now. I get that he wa asked a question again on the call, but he was asked by Carino.
3) 3rd clue: Willard's original quote after the GU game talked about a "greater responsibility than just basketball." His second quote yesterday revolved around how "hard work needs to be rewarded." Why are those significant? Because that are how Willard sees his own strengths. In two bullet points, that's his pitch to remain head coach:
- I cleaned up the program
- I work really hard
Carino is Willard's #1 cheerleader so no surprise this is another fluff piece. How about showing me some statistics of Willard's 3rd, 4th, and 5th year here. Where is the mention of losing the locker room the last 2 years? How about a breakdown of how over half of Willard's wins here are vs. teams ranked 125 and higher in the RPI. Of course that isn't mentioned. Weak.
Similar threads
