For those that are working...

[Merge]

Just to be clear then... The 2002 pre-wavefront costs at $1,550-$1,600 is almost exactly the same for the SAME non wavefront procedure in 2010?

"A price report commissioned by AllAboutVision.com from a leading industry analyst was based on results of a survey of refractive surgeons conducted during the first quarter of 2010. Average LASIK costs were:

$2,150 for all laser-based vision correction procedures (including LASIK) in which a single price is quoted.
$1,580 for non-customized LASIK using a bladed instrument (microkeratome) and excimer lasers that are not guided by wavefront analysis.
$2,170 for wavefront-guided LASIK using a laser-created flap."

The number of people getting the surgery has gone down significantly and it has not moved the price in the last 8 years... which was the central point of your argument.

Your 2 points of the bad economy and the available population shrinking is absolutely true, but that should normally lead to lower prices. It hasn't. That was one of your arguments which doesn't actually look so strong now.

http://www.allaboutvision.com/visionsurgery/

 

[HALL85]

Simple example of supply and demand. If demand goes down, then the relative price remains stable or goes up. This completely supports my argument because the price has remained constant while the cost of healthcare has risen 6-8%/year over that same period.

If a bad ecomony leads to lower prices, why are gasoline, resin, food, etc. prices rising at record levels during this recession?

 

[HALL85]

Simple example of supply and demand. If demand goes down, then the relative price remains stable or goes up. This completely supports my argument because the price has remained constant while the cost of healthcare has risen 6-8%/year over that same period.

If a bad ecomony leads to lower prices, why are gasoline, resin, food, etc. prices rising at record levels during this recession?

 

[HALL85]

That supports my argument exactly. If costs have remained constant in a market (healthcare) whose costs have risen extensively (6-8% per year over that same period), that means costs have declined in present value dollars.

And your argument about costs going down during a recession are also wrong. If that were the case, why has gasoline, food, resin, etc. all dramatically increased during this recession?

 

[HALL85]

That is exactly my point. In real dollars, the non-wavefront is less exepensive, since it costs the same ten years later, while healthcare costs have risen at 6-8% per year over the same period.

A bad economy does not necessarily lead to lower prices. Gas, food, resin prices have all skyrocketed during the recession.

 

[HALL85]

That is exactly my point. In real dollars, the non-wavefront is less exepensive, since it costs the same ten years later, while healthcare costs have risen at 6-8% per year over the same period.

A bad economy does not necessarily lead to lower prices. Gas, food, resin prices have all skyrocketed during the recession.

 

[Merge]

If you are talking about total healthcare spending, you are talking about MANY factors that are contributing to that. The primary factor most likely being the aging of the population and how we treat people towards the end of their life. Of course that would move much faster than inflation, but the average cost of Lasik is rising above inflation as well when you take into account that the preferred procedure has changed. Kind of unfair to compare it to healthcare inflation where there are some costs that actually have gone down in the last 10 years, and not just in real dollars.

My point is that demand has decreased largely due to the economy and how consumers spend money(as would high deductible plans), how will it effect innovation for lasik (and any out of pocket spending)? Will people attempt to make the procedure better knowing that R&D may not be recouped?

Comparing Lasik to gas and food is a bit of a stretch. The demand for Lasik has dropped in half. Gas and food demand hasn't moved nearly that much if at all. Maybe we should compare it to the housing market?

 

[Merge]

If you are talking about total healthcare spending, you are talking about MANY factors that are contributing to that. The primary factor most likely being the aging of the population and how we treat people towards the end of their life. Of course that would move much faster than inflation, but the average cost of Lasik is rising above inflation as well when you take into account that the preferred procedure has changed. Kind of unfair to compare it to healthcare inflation where there are some costs that actually have gone down in the last 10 years, and not just in real dollars.

My point is that demand has decreased largely due to the economy and how consumers spend money(as would high deductible plans), how will it effect innovation for lasik (and any out of pocket spending)? Will people attempt to make the procedure better knowing that R&D may not be recouped?

Comparing Lasik to gas and food is a bit of a stretch. The demand for Lasik has dropped in half. Gas and food demand hasn't moved nearly that much if at all. Maybe we should compare it to the housing market?

 

[Merge]

If you are talking about total healthcare spending, you are talking about MANY factors that are contributing to that. The primary factor most likely being the aging of the population and how we treat people towards the end of their life. Of course that would move much faster than inflation, but the average cost of Lasik is rising above inflation as well when you take into account that the preferred procedure has changed. Kind of unfair to compare it to healthcare inflation where there are some costs that actually have gone down in the last 10 years, and not just in real dollars.

My point is that demand has decreased largely due to the economy and how consumers spend money(as would high deductible plans), how will it effect innovation for lasik (and any out of pocket spending)? Will people attempt to make the procedure better knowing that R&D may not be recouped?

Comparing Lasik to gas and food is a bit of a stretch. The demand for Lasik has dropped in half. Gas and food demand hasn't moved nearly that much if at all. Maybe we should compare it to the housing market?

 

[Merge]

If you are talking about total healthcare spending, you are talking about MANY factors that are contributing to that. The primary factor most likely being the aging of the population and how we treat people towards the end of their life. Of course that would move much faster than inflation, but the average cost of Lasik is rising above inflation as well when you take into account that the preferred procedure has changed. Kind of unfair to compare it to healthcare inflation where there are some costs that actually have gone down in the last 10 years, and not just in real dollars.

My point is that demand has decreased largely due to the economy and how consumers spend money(as would high deductible plans), how will it effect innovation for lasik (and any out of pocket spending)? Will people attempt to make the procedure better knowing that R&D may not be recouped?

Comparing Lasik to gas and food is a bit of a stretch. The demand for Lasik has dropped in half. Gas and food demand hasn't moved nearly that much if at all. Maybe we should compare it to the housing market?

 

[michstfr]

BTW-For those that dispute the findings in the McKinsey poll. See below for analysis and link to the actual findings.

A lot of Democrats including the White House were disparaging the findings and were trying to fire the flames of suspiscion around the findings because McKinsey initially refused to release their polling data. But it is there for all to see.

McKinsey rebuts critics

 

[Merge]

Originally posted by HALL85:
That is exactly my point. In real dollars, the non-wavefront is less exepensive, since it costs the same ten years later, while healthcare costs have risen at 6-8% per year over the same period.

A bad economy does not necessarily lead to lower prices. Gas, food, resin prices have all skyrocketed during the recession.

If you are talking about total healthcare spending, you are talking about MANY factors that are contributing to that. The primary factor most likely being the aging of the population and how we treat people towards the end of their life. Of course that would move much faster than inflation, but the average cost of Lasik is rising above inflation as well when you take into account that the preferred procedure has changed. Kind of unfair to compare it to healthcare inflation where there are some costs that actually have gone down in the last 10 years, and not just in real dollars... but is is the overall usage driving the inflation.

My point is that demand has decreased largely due to the economy and how consumers spend money(as would high deductible plans), how will it effect innovation for lasik (and any out of pocket spending)? Will people attempt to make the procedure better knowing that R&D may not be recouped?

Comparing Lasik to gas and food is a bit of a stretch. The demand for Lasik has dropped in half. Gas and food demand hasn't moved nearly that much if at all. Maybe we should compare it to the housing market?