Have you changed your opinion?

[SHUHoopsFan]

Agree with the family dynamic. But again what creates that dynamic? First, a lousy local educational system leading to under skilled young adults coming out of school. Did you attend a dysfunctional high school? And I would suspect that you came home to a stable family in a solid neighborhood with parents who had solid educations. Second, very little economic investment in inner city areas which results in few employment opportunities for those low skilled graduates. When a neighborhood is anchored by a government social agency you can be sure it is a low opportunity area. Third, terrible social policies enacted decades ago that created incentives that have encouraged the break up of African American families.

Not sure we disagree on what the problems are but IMO the black experience in America is not the same as for other ethnic groups. Every economic statistic supports that fact. Virtually every ethnic group coming to America faced daunting challenges and I would put my own family story in there. However if we can’t agree that the challenges faced by African Americans in the US have been unique, severe and brutal then perhaps we should agree to disagree and move on.

Then I'll probably shock you a little here. Actually I’m not sure how many people here consider the town of Belleville as a solid town with a solid education system. I think the education system is ranked somewhere in 300s in the state. Maybe if you grew up in Newark or Orange you do, but that’s about it. I know what it's like to show up at the field ready for a game and having the opposing town look down on you for being from your town. For the record my mom went to Barringer and my grandparents couldn’t afford to send their boys to SHP so they went to school in Newark. So if you’re lecturing me on family dynamic and education from Montville or Montvale, I’m just going to say I’ve seen a lot of people rise from nothing and seen others sucked into street life. I’d say your suspicions were a little off. One last note, yes I do come from great parents despite the fact my mother doesn't have a college credit to her name and my father didn't go to a school as good Seton Hall. They made sure I stayed on path to attend a better school than they went to. And they worked their ass off to make sure I can achieve that.

 

[SHUHobbit09]

The fact that this thread is four pages long just goes to show the efforts Kaepernick and other athletes put into this was the correct course of action. Folks are still talking about it and the reasoning behind it four years later.

It probably is one of the most successful forms of peaceful protest in recent memory as its become synonymous with the societal issue.It may have ended Kapernick's career but it started the response you are seeing today. You may not like it, but it has been effective.

 

[BILL BELFER]

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Thank you SHU hoops fan!

 

[HALL85]

The fact that this thread is four pages long just goes to show the efforts Kaepernick and other athletes put into this was the correct course of action. Folks are still talking about it and the reasoning behind it four years later.

It probably is one of the most successful forms of peaceful protest in recent memory as its become synonymous with the societal issue.It may have ended Kapernick's career but it started the response you are seeing today. You may not like it, but it has been effective.

Do you measure success as “taking about it” for a long time or actual results? If you look at these protests you might say nothing has been accomplished since CK took his knee.

 

[Section112]

The fact that this thread is four pages long just goes to show the efforts Kaepernick and other athletes put into this was the correct course of action. Folks are still talking about it and the reasoning behind it four years later.

It probably is one of the most successful forms of peaceful protest in recent memory as its become synonymous with the societal issue.It may have ended Kapernick's career but it started the response you are seeing today. You may not like it, but it has been effective.

I have to agree. I don't like it but it is still being discussed today. I'm not a fan of Kap and that is part of it and do not disagree with why he is protesting (more on the how part and the other stuff he did). But it is still being discussed for sure.

 

[Halldan1]

Do you measure success as “taking about it” for a long time or actual results? If you look at these protests you might say nothing has been accomplished since CK took his knee.

How deadly ironic that this started with a knee and tragically ended with one.

 

[SHUHobbit09]

Do you measure success as “taking about it” for a long time or actual results? If you look at these protests you might say nothing has been accomplished since CK took his knee.

Change is a marathon and not a sprint, four years ago he got blackballed from the league. Today the point he was trying to make has captivated a lot of people to ignore a global pandemic to protest for change.

If you think changing public opinion on this is nothing than you missed what happened with the gay marriage debate from 2004 to today.

 

[radecicco]

Then I'll probably shock you a little here. Actually I’m not sure how many people here consider the town of Belleville as a solid town with a solid education system. I think the education system is ranked somewhere in 300s in the state. Maybe if you grew up in Newark or Orange you do, but that’s about it. I know what it's like to show up at the field ready for a game and having the opposing town look down on you for being from your town. For the record my mom went to Barringer and my grandparents couldn’t afford to send their boys to SHP so they went to school in Newark. So if you’re lecturing me on family dynamic and education from Montville or Montvale, I’m just going to say I’ve seen a lot of people rise from nothing and seen others sucked into street life. I’d say your suspicions were a little off. One last note, yes I do come from great parents despite the fact my mother doesn't have a college credit to her name and my father didn't go to a school as good Seton Hall. They made sure I stayed on path to attend a better school than they went to. And they worked their ass off to make sure I can achieve that.

Well let me shock you. I did not grow up in Belleville but lived there for seven years when I first got married. My late wife was a teacher in Newark, first in a Catholic elementary school that was 100% minority and then in a public elementary school. So I have a fairly good understanding of the social dynamics of Belleville and Newark. BTW, my father graduated HS but my mother didn’t and they worked their asses off too. And the only thing I know about Montville and Montvale (they’re two different towns?) is that they are somewhere in North Jersey.

 

[Halldan1]

My condolences on your late wife. Must have been incredibly difficult to experience that.

 

[Piratz]

When it comes to reparations, what exactly is the objective here? Handing out a check to people and moving with business as usual?

Are we talking about systemic issues post-Civil Rights - redlining, welfare, etc. - that eroded these areas and a check will fix that?

Are the reparations going to somehow fund new social programs?

And how is the point of personal accountability factored into this? Not at all?

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Well let me shock you. I did not grow up in Belleville but lived there for seven years when I first got married. My late wife was a teacher in Newark, first in a Catholic elementary school that was 100% minority and then in a public elementary school. So I have a fairly good understanding of the social dynamics of Belleville and Newark. BTW, my father graduated HS but my mother didn’t and they worked their asses off too. And the only thing I know about Montville and Montvale (they’re two different towns?) is that they are somewhere in North Jersey.

So you know there are kids that come home and get the crap kicked out of them for coming home with a warning notice that their grades are suffering and you know there are other kids whose parents don't care. Your parents and my parents didn't need a good education system in place to know how to be good parents and make sure their kids stayed away from the junk on the streets that could derail you and me. They didn't need a good education system to want better for their children. They had family values from their parents who were likely uneducated. No government program is going to do anything about fixing things at the home level. That's where it all starts. Throwing money will do nothing.

Lastly, and most importantly. My condolences.

 

[Piratz]

Well let me shock you. I did not grow up in Belleville but lived there for seven years when I first got married. My late wife was a teacher in Newark, first in a Catholic elementary school that was 100% minority and then in a public elementary school. So I have a fairly good understanding of the social dynamics of Belleville and Newark. BTW, my father graduated HS but my mother didn’t and they worked their asses off too. And the only thing I know about Montville and Montvale (they’re two different towns?) is that they are somewhere in North Jersey.

Condolences on your wife, radecicco.

 

[radecicco]

When do we start distinguishing African-Americans that are descendants of slaves and immigrants that have arrived from Somalia, Ethopia, Nigeria, post-slavery? How do we distinguish children from interracial marriages? If we continue to focus on just the color of our skin, don't we continue to create labels that don't take into account someone's origin and the challenges they faced?

Given how you have couched this, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on how we improve things.

I agree with you about labels. As far as improving things on a policy level it has to start with education. Beyond that, ask somebody higher than my pay grade.

 

[lr591902]

I have not changed my opinion. While I would not kneel or sit during the national anthem I do respect the rights of others to perform what is a silent protest. Basically they are expressing their right to free speech and should be respected.

I have a different view on whether Colin Kapernick was treated unfairly. I do not think he was. He decided to protest by first sitting and then kneeling during the national anthem. He knew at the time that this would be controversial and he wanted to use that controversy to create a discussion around police brutality. Unfortunately for him the bulk of the country was not ready for this form of protest and they took it out on his boss by reducing their attendance and television viewing in a form of protest of their own. The owners being businessmen looked at the bottom line and decided that they did not want him effecting the bottom line. This is a reasonable response on their part and is what they should have said. However forthrightness never mixed with the NFL and they botched it. He should not have been surprised that he lost his job as he knew what he was doing was controversial and could lead to that result. I am anticipating that a lot of players will kneel this year that is their right.

 

[radecicco]

Dan, thanks for letting this thread run. A lot of points of view that clearly people want to express. We live in extraordinary, heartbreaking and challenging times.

 

[HALL85]

I agree with you about labels. As far as improving things on a policy level it has to start with education. Beyond that, ask somebody higher than my pay grade.

We both agree on education. Nothing more important but it can't be by just throwing money at it. Newark is a great example of that. The community, parents and leaders have to get behind it together.

 

[SHallguy2]

Dan, thanks for letting this thread run. A lot of points of view that clearly people want to express. We live in extraordinary, heartbreaking and challenging times.

Very civilized exchange of ideas, not everyone agrees with each other but folks are listening and respecting the thought process. I learned more at home than I ever did at school. Great point!

 

[jcalz88]

Quick question does anyone know why he first sat then started to take a knee, I think if you knew it would change your mind..

 

[Merge]

Quick question does anyone know why he first sat then started to take a knee, I think if you knew it would change your mind..

fwiw, I tried explaining that here a while back with many of the same people in this thread.
Didn't change their view at all. At the end of the day, they just don't agree with the subject matter of the protest.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

fwiw, I tried explaining that here a while back with many of the same people in this thread.
Didn't change their view at all. At the end of the day, they just don't agree with the subject matter of the protest.

That’s just not true. People agree with the subject matter, they don’t agree with the manner of the protest. The 2 are not married. You can agree with idea but find the action to be disrespectful. People can agree with that and people can disagree with that. That’s the United States of America. Why does one have to agree to kneeling for the anthem in order to be against police brutality?

I’m against murder. I’m against hate. I’m against stealing. I’m against ripping down statues and burning cities. Under no circumstance am I going to kneel for the anthem to protest those actions. My thoughts on the flag could be completely different than Kaepernick. That’s fine, that’s America. But don’t tell me I don’t agree with the subject matter because he chooses to perform an action that I don’t agree with.

 

[Merge]

That’s just not true. People agree with the subject matter, they don’t agree with the manner of the protest. The 2 are not married. You can agree with idea but find the action to be disrespectful. People can agree with that and people can disagree with that. That’s the United States of America. Why does one have to agree to kneeling for the anthem in order to be against police brutality?

I’m against murder. I’m against hate. I’m against stealing. Under no circumstance am I going to kneel for the anthem to protest those actions.

Not necessarily you specifically, I don't recall.. but the protest was modified from sitting to kneeling as a way to show respect after speaking about the issue with Nate Boyer. no one cared.

I personally wouldn't kneel for the anthem either, but I don't object to others who may not feel the same way I do about how they are treated in this country.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

Gone with the Wind now getting blackmailed, an all time classic movie. Like people can't tell slavery is bad, oh vey.

 

[shu09]

Gone with the Wind now getting blackmailed, an all time classic movie. Like people can't tell slavery is bad, oh vey.

I also see it's cool for the radicals to go after statues and monuments again. They went through that phase a few years back and here we are again.

Slave owners George Washington and Thomas Jefferson must be shaking in their boots beyond the grave. Better watch their monument and memorial in DC.

 

[Halldan1]

I'll leave this one thread here for now. All the other similar threads will be transferred to Off the Ship at 9AM.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

Change is a marathon and not a sprint, four years ago he got blackballed from the league. Today the point he was trying to make has captivated a lot of people to ignore a global pandemic to protest for change.

If you think changing public opinion on this is nothing than you missed what happened with the gay marriage debate from 2004 to today.

I think we mostly move the right way in the U.S. on any issue that falls under the identity politics umbrella. Not nearly quick enough for me, but we seem to get, or as least close, to the right spot eventually. I hope we can more solidly codify a women's universal right to safe abortions regardless of state in the near future too. Maybe that can be the next large movement push after this one. We've seen the effectiveness of sustained, angry, street-level protest. It def. seems like it will be more effective than hoping the courts & the state legislatures will do the right thing on this issue, as it's just been devastated in many statehouses in the last few years.

More complex issues like the out of control capitalist machine, a health care system wholesale incentivized to bankrupt & kill people, a campaign finance system full scale co-opted by bribery, etc....yeah those we aren't doing well with those at all.

Switching it up, we've seen assortment of ...I would say..."unhelpful" views spouted on here recently. Gross, "you don't even know you're being racist, do you" stuff like blaming black people not getting married & then having their kids at the levels that some white boomer deems acceptable.

A buncha white guys clutching their bootlicker pearls b/c some black people didn't fill out the proper form letter & check with their plutocrat bosses or the 'MERICA mouthbreathers watching at home if it was ok to protest & penetrate their little bubble of white privilege. Stuff like that really gets a good pop...anyone that's a public figure better shut up forever about anything bad that goes on in the world & just leave him alone dagnabbit! And that goes for you too Jay Wright! How dare you speak up as the leader of young black men about the importance of voting! Or give your opinion where you error on the side of caution re: CV. FOR SHAME!

Or arguably worse yet, patting our own black SHU players on the head b/c they happened to choose a palatable form of speaking out that doesn't mess w/your conformist sensibilities. It better check my boxes as a white catholic NJ suburbanite or I will be very upset Myles! Now go dribble that ball.

White folks who have benefited from & been complicit in systems of racial inequality don't like to be confronted with the information of the last few weeks. It's like the dudes who respond "NOT ALL MEN" when something that tends to be an issue with some men gets brought up. Not being an active racist/misogynist doesn't mean they're innocent, and having to face that reality & try to be better is too hard for them, so instead they lash out & get overly defensive (thus further outing themselves as a huge part of the problem).

 

[jcalz88]

fwiw, I tried explaining that here a while back with many of the same people in this thread.
Didn't change their view at all. At the end of the day, they just don't agree with the subject matter of the protest.

RETIRED ARMY GREEN BARET BOYER CONTACTED KAPERNICK AND ASKED HIM NOT TO SIT FOR THE FLAG BUT TO TAKE A KNEE, LIKE WE DO TO SHOW RESPECT TO OUR FALLEN ONES.


Sorry I feel like I had to yell that a WHITE GREEN BARET told him to do this..

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

RETIRED ARMY GREEN BARET BOYER CONTACTED KAPERNICK AND ASKED HIM NOT TO SIT FOR THE FLAG BUT TO TAKE A KNEE, LIKE WE DO TO SHOW RESPECT TO OUR FALLEN ONES.


Sorry I feel like I had to yell that a WHITE GREEN BARET told him to do this..

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Maybe the green beret thought that was something he COULD say to Kap without being labeled a racist. If he had told Kap he should stand to show respect for the flag and those that died wouldn't he just be Drew Brees? Lol

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

RETIRED ARMY GREEN BARET BOYER CONTACTED KAPERNICK AND ASKED HIM NOT TO SIT FOR THE FLAG BUT TO TAKE A KNEE, LIKE WE DO TO SHOW RESPECT TO OUR FALLEN ONES.


Sorry I feel like I had to yell that a WHITE GREEN BARET told him to do this..

View embedded media

Let me ask. Do you think every green beret agrees with Boyer? I’m sure many do and many do not. But just because it was a suggestion from a green beret doesn’t mean everyone should smile and nod in agreement. Why can’t people think for themselves and follow their own beliefs. I will guarantee Boyer is not alone in his thinking but he’s also not speaking for everyone in his rank either.

 

[Merge]

Let me ask. Do you think every green beret agrees with Boyer? I’m sure many do and many do not. But just because it was a suggestion from a green beret doesn’t mean everyone should smile and nod in agreement. Why can’t people think for themselves and follow their own beliefs. I will guarantee Boyer is not alone in his thinking but he’s also not speaking for everyone in his rank either.

No.

That is not relevant to the point.

The point is the intent. Boyer reaches out to have a discussion and Kap saw his point of view and agreed to kneel as a way to continue his protest AND to show respect for those who have served.

Some can view disagree and that’s fine, but the intent of the change is significant to the discussion and most people ignore that.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

No.

That is not relevant to the point.

The point is the intent. Boyer reaches out to have a discussion and Kap saw his point of view and agreed to kneel as a way to continue his protest AND to show respect for those who have served.

Some can view disagree and that’s fine, but the intent of the change is significant to the discussion and most people ignore that.

How is it not relevant? Because it’s meant to tell people ignore the action and focus on the cause. If someone did a protest with a good cause and the action turned out to be offensive to African Americans they would be asked to change immediately. And rightfully so. Well many people find the action of kneeling during the anthem offensive. Kneel after every TD. kneel after every kickoff. Kneel after every first down. You could accomplish more and piss people off less.

 

[Merge]

How is it not relevant? Because it’s meant to tell people ignore the action and focus on the cause. If someone did a protest with a good cause and the action turned out to be offensive to African Americans they would be asked to change immediately. And rightfully so. Well many people find the action of kneeling during the anthem offensive. Kneel after every TD. kneel after every kickoff. Kneel after every first down. You could accomplish more and piss people off less.

Let’s walk through that post.

Someone protests a certain way and African Americans are offended. Someone prominent from the African American community offers to meet with them and explain why they are offended. The protestor agrees to meet and changes their protest after their discussion.

I believe the intent of that action is important. Will some people still be offended? Of course... but people are going to be offended at anything.


On this issue, you are supposed to stand for the anthem, but you are also supposed to remove your hat and put your hand over your heart. No one cares about those parts but it should be just as offensive as kneeling. No one makes an issue of that.

US flag code says you should not display a flag horizontally, yet everyone cheers at football games when they bring out the gigantic flag horizontally. Flag code also says you can’t use the flag as costumes or apparel.. yet many of the people complaining about someone taking a knee have worn a flag that way. Many leave the flag on the back of their car which flaps in the wind and rips apart the ends...


No one cares about any of that. Why?
Why is kneeling such a more significant ack of disrespect?

If you have been upset about someone taking a knee, but not about any of the other wrong ways people treat the flag, then I would recommended taking some time to understand why you make that distinction.

For me. It’s intent. Displaying the flag horizontally is wrong, but their intent is not to disrespect the flag. Wearing the flag is wrong, but their intent is not disrespect. Putting the flag on your car is wrong but the intent is not disrespect. Kneeling to the flag during the anthem is wrong but the intent is not disrespect.

 

[Halldan1]

OK guys. This has gone far enough on this board. I will be transferring it to Off the Ship shortly.

Continue there.

 

[jcalz88]

Maybe the green beret thought that was something he COULD say to Kap without being labeled a racist. If he had told Kap he should stand to show respect for the flag and those that died wouldn't he just be Drew Brees? Lol

No I do not think all agree.

But does it not say something about kap that he heard this out and thoughtfully.

and he made a choice out of respect for another person and his feelings.

btw listen to the interview the green Barrr would do it all over again and fights everyday for kap.

Let me ask. Do you think every green beret agrees with Boyer? I’m sure many do and many do not. But just because it was a suggestion from a green beret doesn’t mean everyone should smile and nod in agreement. Why can’t people think for themselves and follow their own beliefs. I will guarantee Boyer is not alone in his thinking but he’s also not speaking for everyone in his rank either.

 

[SPK145]

Did the green beret tell him to wear pig cop socks and Castro shirts?

CK is just a phony shit stirrer looking to stay relevant.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Let’s walk through that post.

Someone protests a certain way and African Americans are offended. Someone prominent from the African American community offers to meet with them and explain why they are offended. The protestor agrees to meet and changes their protest after their discussion.

I believe the intent of that action is important. Will some people still be offended? Of course... but people are going to be offended at anything.


On this issue, you are supposed to stand for the anthem, but you are also supposed to remove your hat and put your hand over your heart. No one cares about those parts but it should be just as offensive as kneeling. No one makes an issue of that.

US flag code says you should not display a flag horizontally, yet everyone cheers at football games when they bring out the gigantic flag horizontally. Flag code also says you can’t use the flag as costumes or apparel.. yet many of the people complaining about someone taking a knee have worn a flag that way. Many leave the flag on the back of their car which flaps in the wind and rips apart the ends...


No one cares about any of that. Why?
Why is kneeling such a more significant ack of disrespect?

If you have been upset about someone taking a knee, but not about any of the other wrong ways people treat the flag, then I would recommended taking some time to understand why you make that distinction.

For me. It’s intent. Displaying the flag horizontally is wrong, but their intent is not to disrespect the flag. Wearing the flag is wrong, but their intent is not disrespect. Putting the flag on your car is wrong but the intent is not disrespect. Kneeling to the flag during the anthem is wrong but the intent is not disrespect.

Take a step back on the anthem. I've been to many games, high school football, hockey, MLB, and even our Seton Hall games where I've heard someone in the crowd yell for someone to take off their cap. I will admit, as a teenager once or twice I was caught up in what I was doing and had someone remind me to remove my cap. Immediately people take off their caps. I've never once seen someone say I'm leaving my cap on. As for the hand over the heart, I don't know if people are actively looking around to see what others are doing, but a cap is much easier to notice.

As for the flag code, for you it's about intent, for me it's about emotions. If people feel good about it, I'm all for it. If you're creating positive emotions and making everyone feel good, why not? If you're creating division, let's find a better way.

Just my personal opinion the quest to get everyone to accept kneeling during the anthem has become equally as important as police reform. Look we all need to try to understand Colin Kaepernick's position of why he kneels. He has the freedom to do that in this country. But we also need to understand Drew Brees' position on why he stands. Neither individual deserves death threats for their opinion. Based on the death threats he's received, if I was the New England Patriots GM, I would actively be seeking a trade to get him. And thats coming from a bills fan.

 

[Merge]

As for the flag code, for you it's about intent, for me it's about emotions. If people feel good about it, I'm all for it. If you're creating positive emotions and making everyone feel good, why not? If you're creating division, let's find a better way.

The same rules that say we should stand say you should put your hand over your heart. No one cares when people don’t put their hand over their heart... it’s not creating a positive emotion to not do that. The reason no one cares is because they don’t have the intent to disrespect the flag.

Neither did Kap when he started kneeling but we draw the distinction because he is actively protesting. More thought went into the action of kneeling than the people who don’t place their hand over their heart.

I don’t expect 100% of people to agree with what he was doing. I can only explain why I do not believe he was disrespecting the flag.

Fine if you disagree, but next time you’re at a SHU game, be sure to tell those around you to put their hand over their heart during the anthem.

 

[Ryanpbkelly]

You can’t fix stupid....

 

[goodmoney]

You can’t fix stupid....

Another great argument by you!

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Another great argument by you!

At least he tried to fix himself. Trophies for all will be given out at noon.

 

[Ryanpbkelly]

At least he tried to fix himself. Trophies for all will be given out at noon.

Uh??