How Low Can Trump Stoop?

[cernjSHU]

With clear proof that Saudi Washington Post journalist was killed in the Saudi embassy, Trump somehow is defending the regime. Having Pompeo with crown prince yucking it up is embarrassing and beneath this country. Trump defending the Saudis based on how much money that they have spent on military planes is somehow a justification of murdering someone who lived and worked in the US.

I watched JOHN Kasich go bizerk over this. And I ask myself, besides Kasich where has the leadership of the Republicans gone? I shake my head at what Trump does. How he denigrates the office of the President. His defenders here on this board and in the country, I ask you when is enough enough?

 

[Section112]

He cannot seem to learn to shut his mouth or get off twitter. He should say we are trying to get to the bottom of this and that is it until he knows what is really going on. He can't stop saying stupid stuff and he continues to make himself look bad. Paul Ryan and Lindsey Graham have criticized Trumps comments already and more to come I am sure.

Bottom line is the Saudi situation is just a clusterf*#k for all of the last 3 or 4 administrations. Saudi Arabia does lots of bad stuff all the time, treats their people badly, funds terror. But we keep trying to hang onto them as an ally because they spend money and have significant oil and we get some bases there in a strategic area of the middle east. They are also big funders of huge deals with America and sit on US company boards like Uber and WeWork. It's been hypocrisy at its best for many years now.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-backlash-threatens-u-s-startups-1539707574?mod=djemwhatsnews

 

[seton1996]

With clear proof that Saudi Washington Post journalist was killed in the Saudi embassy, Trump somehow is defending the regime. Having Pompeo with crown prince yucking it up is embarrassing and beneath this country. Trump defending the Saudis based on how much money that they have spent on military planes is somehow a justification of murdering someone who lived and worked in the US.

I watched JOHN Kasich go bizerk over this. And I ask myself, besides Kasich where has the leadership of the Republicans gone? I shake my head at what Trump does. How he denigrates the office of the President. His defenders here on this board and in the country, I ask you when is enough enough?

I always love these kind of posts, whether against Trump or even against Obama.

Sure, the best move would be for Trump to stay quiet on the matter, but that is not Trump.

Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia is an important ally to the US for multiple reasons, so not much is going to happen because of that. And even if Trump came out and condemned the Saudi's, what does that get us in the end?

Even with a lot of evidence that high ranking officials in Saudi Arabia had knowledge of 9/11, our country has never really pursued that publicly.

And in the end, it was a Saudi citizen, killed by the Saudi government, in Turkey, sure he worked in the US, but not the type of matter for the US to get overly worked up about. The sad fact of the matter is these things have happened and will happen in the future, this one just made the news because of the way the disappearence went down.

 

[shu09]

American presidents have cowered to Saudi Arabia for decades. This is nothing new. But sure, let's turn it into another bash Trump fest as if this is something unique to him. How about we wait until all the facts come out before rushing to judgement? Trump has said Saudi Arabia will face "severe" punishment if they had anything to do with this. Let's see if he follows through. I doubt it, but let's wait and see what happens.

Why did Saudi Arabia face no consequences when 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were their own? Why were members of the Bin Laden family flown out of the country on a private jet just days after the attacks when all civil aviation was supposed to be grounded? Disturbing questions that lead you down a dark path.

 

[cernjSHU]

American presidents have cowered to Saudi Arabia for decades. This is nothing new. But sure, let's turn it into another bash Trump fest as if this is something unique to him. How about we wait until all the facts come out before rushing to judgement? Trump has said Saudi Arabia will face "severe" punishment if they had anything to do with this. Let's see if he follows through. I doubt it, but let's wait and see what happens.

Why did Saudi Arabia face no consequences when 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were their own? Why were members of the Bin Laden family flown out of the country on a private jet just days after the attacks when all civil aviation was supposed to be grounded? Disturbing questions that lead you down a dark path.

Oh please. Let’s see what the facts are? He entered the Saudi embassy and never exited. Fact. He was killed within the Saudi embassy. That is part of the Saudi government which is an autocratic government. These are undeniable truths.

Oh we are going to treat the Saudi government like an American citizen innocent until proven guilty? Like Kavanaugh like the President likes to say?

Admittedly the Saudi government is a complex relationship. While most of the Saudi hijackers were Saudis none were government officials. Do I think the Saudi government had a permissive attitude with Terrorism, yes. But, that relationship between hijackers and the Kingdom have been rumors. Moreover, the Saudis were needed to fight Al Queda similar to Pakistan that actually supported Bin Laden. These are complex relationships for sure.

However, this is an assisination done within the Saudi embassy government building. No escaping this was sanctioned by the Saudi Crown. I am sure someone will be the scapegoat for the King and Crown Prince and will be killed. But that’s purely a cover for who ordered the hit and that goes directly to the top of the government.

 

[shu09]

I don't necessarily disagree with the prevailing theory based on what is thought to be known at this time.

But do you trust the Turks? The Turks don't like the Saudis and I wonder what connection this has to the release of the pastor that Turkey was holding. It's possible that the Turks are using this to try to drive a wedge between the US and the Saudis. That's why we need the facts to come out.

 

[Merge]

American presidents have cowered to Saudi Arabia for decades. This is nothing new. But sure, let's turn it into another bash Trump fest as if this is something unique to him. How about we wait until all the facts come out before rushing to judgement? Trump has said Saudi Arabia will face "severe" punishment if they had anything to do with this. Let's see if he follows through. I doubt it, but let's wait and see what happens.

In a bubble, I think that is a reasonable stance but Trump only takes the "wait and see" approach when it makes political sense for him to do so. He hasn't taken a wait and see approach on the many conspiracy theories he has pushed as president of the united states. When you only take the "wait and see" approach with people you are afraid of (Putin and Saudi Arabia) it looks weak.

 

[shu09]

In a bubble, I think that is a reasonable stance but Trump only takes the "wait and see" approach when it makes political sense for him to do so. He hasn't taken a wait and see approach on the many conspiracy theories he has pushed as president of the united states. When you only take the "wait and see" approach with people you are afraid of (Putin and Saudi Arabia) it looks weak.

What "conspiracy theories" has he pushed?

 

[Merge]

What "conspiracy theories" has he pushed?

South African large scale killing of farmers, Kavenaugh protesters were paid by Soros, Hurricane Maria death-toll was a democrat manufactured number to make Trump look bad, Obama tapped my phones, Hillary colluded with Russia, Mueller and his 17 angry democratic rigged witch hunt, 3 million fake votes in 2016.. etc.

 

[shu09]

South African large scale killing of farmers, Kavenaugh protesters were paid by Soros, Hurricane Maria death-toll was a democrat manufactured number to make Trump look bad, Obama tapped my phones, Hillary colluded with Russia, Mueller and his 17 angry democratic rigged witch hunt, 3 million fake votes in 2016.. etc.

I wouldn't call those conspiracy theories.

 

[Merge]

I wouldn't call those conspiracy theories.

I disagree, but I'll rephrase as to not get into a debate over what is and what is not a conspiracy theory.

In a bubble, I think that is a reasonable stance but Trump only takes the "wait and see" approach when it makes political sense for him to do so. He hasn't taken a wait and see approach on the many "unproven allegations" he has pushed as president of the united states. When you only take the "wait and see" approach with people you are afraid of (Putin and Saudi Arabia) it looks weak.

 

[SPK145]

Trump should never have waded in on this, stupid comments from him.

I've said it many times here though, Saudi Arabia has never been a friend to the U.S. yet every president in recent memory has kissed Saudi Arabia's ass. And now some get their nose bent out of shape over this but how many homosexuals has Saudi Arabia killed without a whimper from anyone? How despicable does Saudi Arabia treat women, again without a whimper from anyone?

And Turkey has changed from a trusted ally to an enigma in recent times, I trust them with nothing.

 

[seton1996]

I disagree, but I'll rephrase as to not get into a debate over what is and what is not a conspiracy theory.

In a bubble, I think that is a reasonable stance but Trump only takes the "wait and see" approach when it makes political sense for him to do so. He hasn't taken a wait and see approach on the many "unproven allegations" he has pushed as president of the united states. When you only take the "wait and see" approach with people you are afraid of (Putin and Saudi Arabia) it looks weak.

"only takes the "wait and see" approach when it makes political sense for him to do so".

Unfortunately, this is pretty much what every politician does, they only get involved when it suits themselves. Trump in my opinion does a poor job with the public relations aspect of the presidency, whether on purpose or not.

Same thing with the media and others on this topic, there is so much coverage because it fits their needs and/or agenda.

Why does the American media, politicians or people so outraged that Saudi Arabia killed this guy, when we know Saudi Arabia has a horrible human rights record, where many people have been killed or punished for no reason?

 

[Merge]

Unfortunately, this is pretty much what every politician does, they only get involved when it suits themselves. Trump in my opinion does a poor job with the public relations aspect of the presidency, whether on purpose or not.

Right, but not every other politicians jumps in on the "unproven allegations" like Trump does which makes the "wait and see" stuff look like garbage.

Wait and see is the correct approach in most cases, and if Trump was constantly showing that kind of behavior there would be no issue with how he responds to an incident like this one.

Why does the American media, politicians or people so outraged that Saudi Arabia killed this guy, when we know Saudi Arabia has a horrible human rights record, where many people have been killed or punished for no reason?

Without a doubt a fair point, although I think "the media" in general see's a journalist get murdered and wants to make sure that killing journalists anywhere isn't tolerated. This case is horrendous and it should get attention and condemnation, and hopefully it will be within a wider context of human rights abuses from the Saudi's.

 

[cernjSHU]

And Turkey has changed from a trusted ally to an enigma in recent times, I trust them with nothing.

Well, you don’t have to trust Turkey. Khashoggi was there with his friend or gf waiting in the car for him to leave and he never exited. Video shows him going on and never exiting. You don’t have to trust the Turks.

The Saudi government Is bad. Problem is that they are less bad than other actors in the region. Makes for very complex relations. But, the difference here is that 1) he is a journalist. That gets attention whenever a journalist get killed ie Russia. 2) He worked for an American Paper and lives in the US. 3) clear evidence that the Saudi government killed him.

This is not some selective outrage due to people being antiTrump. This is a blatant in your face murder by the government of an American resident.

 

[SPK145]

Well, you don’t have to trust Turkey. Khashoggi was there with his friend or gf waiting in the car for him to leave and he never exited. Video shows him going on and never exiting. You don’t have to trust the Turks.

The Saudi government Is bad. Problem is that they are less bad than other actors in the region. Makes for very complex relations. But, the difference here is that 1) he is a journalist. That gets attention whenever a journalist get killed ie Russia. 2) He worked for an American Paper and lives in the US. 3) clear evidence that the Saudi government killed him.

This is not some selective outrage due to people being antiTrump. This is a blatant in your face murder by the government of an American resident.

Call the whambulance.

A terrible government-ordered murder by a country known for a government-ordered murders but it's an outrage greater than other murders because "it's complicated". No, it's Trump Derangement Syndrome. Just like Trump's past tweets show a pattern, your posts here also show a pattern.

 

[Merge]

Call the whambulance, not really an American resident or working for an American paper.

A terrible government-ordered murder by a country known for a government-ordered murders but it's an outrage greater than other murders because "it's complicated". No, it's Trump Derangement Syndrome. Just like Trump's past tweets show a pattern, your posts here also show a pattern.

Hold on. This story had a ton of attention way before Trump commented on it. Trumps comments certainly put a magnifying glass on it as well but don’t pretend this story is only big because of Trump. I first heard of it when the Washington post printed a blank column for their missing journalist almost 2 weeks ago.

He certainly did work for an American paper and was a permanent resident of the US. Not sure why you would refute that?

It’s not derangement syndrome to think Trump handled this poorly. He brought up Khashoggi‘s resident status multiple times as if we should not care if countries are killing journalists if they aren’t US citizens. That’s insane.

 

[SPK145]

Hold on. This story had a ton of attention way before Trump commented on it. Trumps comments certainly put a magnifying glass on it as well but don’t pretend this story is only big because of Trump. I first heard of it when the Washington post printed a blank column for their missing journalist almost 2 weeks ago.

He certainly did work for an American paper and was a permanent resident of the US. Not sure why you would refute that?

It’s not derangement syndrome to think Trump handled this poorly. He brought up Khashoggi‘s resident status multiple times as if we should not care if countries are killing journalists if they aren’t US citizens. That’s insane.

I edited out the work and residence stuff although that is really for convenience, he’s not an American.

I’m talking about the fuss over Trump’s stupid comments yet Saudi is a known murderer, nobody has ever said crap about them. Khashoggi knew what he was getting into, never should have thought he was going to be protected inside the Saudi consulate, only the exteriors are protected by the host country.

Either Saudi Arabia is ALL of our business or NONE of our business, precedent has been that it’s none of our business. In fact, we are allies with them in the war in Yemen. I think that’s wrong but we have always covered up for the gross misdeeds of Saudi Arabia, now it’s a problem?

It’s all about oil (and we only get 9% of our oil from them) and TDS.

Where’s your boy Bezos in all of this, has he said anything yet or is he too busy trying to expand his business into Saudi Arabia?

 

[Section112]

Not only oil anymore. There are a number of multi billion dollar orders on the table with the Saudis for aircrafts and weapons that will affect the employment of thousands of Americans. The Saudis are one of the biggest investors in US businesses and especially in Silicon Valley firms (there are no liberals in California in those companies right?). And Saudis sit on the boards of many US companies including Uber and WeWork and others. None of that makes what they did right but I am sure this will go away because our interests are so intertwined and its all about following the money.

 

[cernjSHU]

Call the whambulance.

.

I didn’t know you were a huge fan of George Michael. But I can see you bopping to “Wake me Up before you go go”

 

[SPK145]

I didn’t know you were a huge fan of George Michael. But I can see you bopping to “Wake me Up before you go go”

Lol!!

So what do we do about Saudi Arabia?

 

[Merge]

I’m talking about the fuss over Trump’s stupid comments yet Saudi is a known murderer, nobody has ever said crap about them. Khashoggi knew what he was getting into, never should have thought he was going to be protected inside the Saudi consulate, only the exteriors are protected by the host country.

Right, we have a history of ignoring them. But I think what was different this time was that it was a journalist. The narrative from the media before Trump made his comments was this is horrendous and asking if we should reassess our relationship with SA who has a history of human rights abuse.

Trump’s remarks downplaying a potential murder of a journalist for a US paper because he wasn’t a US citizen is crazy. Then he says he has no business relationship with any Saudi’s even though he talked about how much they buy from him during the campaign.

Then we have reports of Kushner talking to MBS using whatsapp, violating all of the same rules that Hillary did by not retaining her emails.

 

[grady dog]

The Russians did it.

 

[cernjSHU]

Lol!!

So what do we do about Saudi Arabia?

This is the real question. They have to be punished somehow. If that’s cancelling aircraft sales to them or pulling our support in their war in Yemen that’s a start.

Easy part is condemning this action and gathering the European nations to for an investigative body to oversee this investigation. I don’t see us severing our relationship with that country. It would have been nice to play A little triangulation if Trump did not break away from the deal with Iran. Both countries hate each other and skilled diplomacy can triangulate to check each countries power. However, our esteemed President went all in with Saudi Arabia.

I don’t have the answers. I would leave that to the experts. But you can’t allow this to happen with a slap on the wrist. That gives a license to every country to do whatever they want because we won’t do anything about it.

 

[Section112]

That gives a license to every country to do whatever they want because we won’t do anything about it.

So you are saying we are supposed to police the whole world? Hmmm

 

[Pirata]

The Saudis just admitted that he slipped on a bar of soap.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...bia-jamal-khashoggi-death-20181019-story.html

 

[cernjSHU]

As I said before, there will be a scapegoat for the Crown Prince. However this is really a lame excuse. A fistfight broke out and he is dead and dismembered. Ok yeah right.

 

[SPK145]

As I said before, there will be a scapegoat for the Crown Prince. However this is really a lame excuse. A fistfight broke out and he is dead and dismembered. Ok yeah right.

You haven’t followed up on your police the world edict. When do we punish Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Brazil, Cuba, Mexico, et al?

 

[Merge]

You haven’t followed up on your police the world edict. When do we punish Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Brazil, Cuba, Mexico, et al?

I don’t think policing... but we shouldn’t turn a blind eye when a country is murdering journalists who criticize them. We can find some sort of diplomatic response. I don’t think cutting off arms sales or anything should result from this, but the threat should be on the table to convince them that type of behavior cannot continue.

 

[Pirata]

Amazing outpouring of new found outrage from this board.

Where were you all year?

https://cpj.org/data/killed/2018/?s...art_year=2018&end_year=2018&group_by=location

 

[Merge]

Amazing outpouring of new found outrage from this board.

Where were you all year?

https://cpj.org/data/killed/2018/?status=Killed&motiveConfirmed[]=Confirmed&type[]=Journalist&start_year=2018&end_year=2018&group_by=location

Before I read through any more of those, are any of them similar to their countries leaders murdering a journalist at the Saudi consulate?

 

[HALL85]

Before I read through any more of those, are any of them similar to their countries leaders murdering a journalist at the Saudi consulate?

Has that been remotely proven yet?

 

[Pirata]

Before I read through any more of those, are any of them similar to their countries leaders murdering a journalist at the Saudi consulate?

Oh that's right. I forgot. Murdering journalists only matter when they're done in foreign consulates.

I guess that was their mistake. They should have driven him out into the country and sawed his head off and then we wouldn't have noticed as much or been as upset.

 

[Pirata]

Let's stop kidding ourselves.

The only reason you have any interest in this because Trump made a comment about it that you didn't like.

Just look at the title of the thread.

The title doesn't say "American journalist murdered in Saudi consulate".

The other thing that is striking is that we really do not know what happened there. Some of you post as if you know exactly what went down. Something is clearly rotten in Denmark and it will be a while before we find out what it is if in fact we ever do.

It is clear to me that there are also some strong economic forces at play. Trump who usually doesn't give a crap about offending anybody seems to be walking a tight rope with the Saudis. I realize all the Trump basher will say it is because he has personal Investments with them. Merkle has now weighed in on it and I think there's a lot more going on then we see at the moment.

 

[Pirata]

Has there been anything written in the Press about motive? All the sound bites I am hearing seem to be talking about trying to figure out what happened at the actual scene. Have not heard of anything about motive.

I can't imagine that the Saudis woke up one morning and said hey let's lure journalists into the consulate and kill him just for the hell of it.

If anyone has more insight into motive please post.

 

[cernjSHU]

Amazing outpouring of new found outrage from this board.

Where were you all year?

https://cpj.org/data/killed/2018/?status=Killed&motiveConfirmed[]=Confirmed&type[]=Journalist&start_year=2018&end_year=2018&group_by=location

Perhaps you just don’t understand the differences. Perhaps your love of Trump clouds your thinking. But if you don’t see a difference between the list of journalists you posted and a journalist that works for an American paper and lives in America demonstrates your obtuseness.

 

[HALL85]

Perhaps you just don’t understand the differences. Perhaps your love of Trump clouds your thinking. But if you don’t see a difference between the list of journalists you posted and a journalist that works for an American paper and lives in America demonstrates your obtuseness.

cern, no offense, but this is the type of response that shows your colors. When you feel you’ve lost the debate, this resorting to labeling those that oppose your POV “Trump Lovers”, cultists, etc. I know Pirata and you couldn’t be more incorrect but that doesn’t matter I’m sure.

 

[Merge]

Has that been remotely proven yet?

He was killed by his government.
How is that even a question?

He was murdered in the consulate by a group of people who arrived before him with a bone saw...

 

[HALL85]

He was killed by his government.
How is that even a question?..

That hasn’t been proven yet. Probably is the case, but once again you’re jumping the shark.

 

[cernjSHU]

cern, no offense, but this is the type of response that shows your colors. When you feel you’ve lost the debate, this resorting to labeling those that oppose your POV “Trump Lovers”, cultists, etc. I know Pirata and you couldn’t be more incorrect but that doesn’t matter I’m sure.

True colors? Come on. How in the world does anyone not see the difference with why Khashoggi is not different than some some unknown journanalist in a distant corner of the world that no one knows of?

SPK asks a relevant and difficult question of what to do about the Saudis. For Pirata to suggest that people on my side of the political aisle have false outrage of Kashoggi because other journalist have been killed is the same false equiivant arguments that Trump and people on the right like to make.

It has nothing to do with feeling that I lost an argument. My point is very obvious.