How Low Can Trump Stoop?
- Thread starter cernjSHU
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I wrote that 2 days ago. I have been reading the reporting.
Saudi Arabia confirmed he was killed in the consulate 4 days ago.
I'm not trying the case, but based on the reporting so far I am pretty comfortable saying that he was murdered by his government.
We have intelligence that MBS was trying to lure Kashoggi back to Saudi Arabia.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-salman-us-intelligence-missing-a8578491.html
A 15 man team was sent to the consulate prior to Kashoggi's arrival, one of which included a forensic expert doctor with a bone saw who would be capable, and is accused of dismembering Kashoggi.
Saudi has placed blame on senior advisers within their government and has fired 5 senior officials.
I mean... He was murdered by senior officials within his government. The only thing we don't know is if it was ordered from the top levels yet.
I Generally agree with your last post.
Assuming it was done by the Saudis, I am puzzled by the choice of location.
I don't understand why they would be so obvious. Why do it where there are security cameras? Why not abduct him and take him to a remote location?
Perhaps they are just that stupid.
There is the possibility that they were sent to scare him and take him back home but then went babalou. That might explain the bone saw albeit they would not necessarily need the doctor, unless the site of him was familiar to Jamal and would invoke terror.
Assuming it was done by the Saudis, I am puzzled by the choice of location.
I don't understand why they would be so obvious. Why do it where there are security cameras? Why not abduct him and take him to a remote location?
Perhaps they are just that stupid.
There is the possibility that they were sent to scare him and take him back home but then went babalou. That might explain the bone saw albeit they would not necessarily need the doctor, unless the site of him was familiar to Jamal and would invoke terror.
These have been my thoughts from the beginning, if they just wanted to just kill him think would have been easier ways then doing it by luring him into the embassy. My only thought on why to do it in the embassy, is it did offer them some protection against Turkey if things went bad.
I have no evidence obviously, but I think the plan was to scare by torture and/or maybe kidnap him and something went really wrong. I do not believe the fist fight story of the Saudis at all. Can think of a lot of things that could go wrong, or could be taken too far by one of the interrogators.
Either way pretty crazy that the Saudi's are that concerned with a reporter that is bad mouthing the kingdom, unless more to the story of why Saudi's wanted him dead.
He had basically sought asylum in the U.S., seems that it would be much, much harder, if not impossible, to get at him here.
Consulates are protected on the outside by the host country; on the inside it is strictly the consulate country's security.
Nobody believes that.
Was Khashoggi really that stupid to think he could go into what is quasi-sovereign Saudi territory without any ramifications??
No matter where you stand, this shines a bright light on the Saudis. They have been corrupt forever and now everyone knows it. They outed themselves and in turn anyone associated with them including the US bathes in hypocrisy.
If you pick a side in politics, you're a hypocrite. Just take the caravan, for example. Trump is telling them they're not welcome here. Democrats say that is wrong. Yet not one democrat criticized Maxine Waters for when she said tell any member of the cabinet (all of whom happen to be legal US citizens) they're not welcomed here. Seems a little hypocritical to me. But what do I know. Yes the right is hypocritical, but so is the left. That's why we have tensions at all time highs. People go overboard on both sides when it fits the narrative they want. I haven't seen democrats or republicans take a look in the mirror. I've yet to hear one thing on CNN where the democrats are at fault. I've yet to hear one thing on FOX where the republicans are at fault. The goal is to come to the middle, yet everyone is getting dragged to the extreme. So save your self righteous BS that some people are hypocrits. BOTH SIDES ARE.
You are not comparing things that are equal. First, you conflate what Maxine Waters is saying about how she wants her constituents to act when they confront members of the Trump Administration to what Trump is saying about the caravan. One is a political message to be sent to the administration, the other is immigration policy. No Democrat I have heard is saying that the caravan people should be allowed into the country. The whole Caravan thing is a Red Herring. They are a 1000 miles away. Trump is amping this up as to be some sort oft the Barbarians are at the Gates imagery which is not true. This is not a wild horde of people looking to invade and rape and pillage. However, that is the type of language Trump is using and that is what is wrong. They have more troops at the border than in Iraq at this time. A bit of overkill? The caravan is completely a made up issue by Trump to stir up fears in Americans.
You are also equating a Congresswoman from a district in California with the power of the President? No one really takes Maxine Waters seriously. I have heard plenty of Dems say that it is wrong to shout out people in public.
You're part of the problem. You're weighing things. It's not about being equal it's about everyone looking in the mirror at their own actions. Is Trump's rhetoric a problem? YES. Is Maxine Waters rhetoric a problem? Yes. Is Hillary a problem when she says we can't be civil with republicans? YES. It doesn't matter to what degree each of their rhetoric is a problem, none of them are fixing it. You don't have to be a 10 on a scale of 1-10 to look at yourself in the mirror and say I need to fix things. You can't be a leader and say that guy's doing worse than me so I don't have to change. That's what is running our country right now and no wonder we're a mess. When our leaders choose to do the right thing for the USA instead of for their party, things will be much better until then you choose to believe blaming others is the answer. When you realize blaming others does nothing to help the situation, let me know.
It's time to stop trying to get rid of divisiveness BY BEING DIVISIVE!! From the president, to congress, to the media, to pro-trumpers, to anti-trumpers, et al. We need to see the attacks in Pittsburgh and the pipe bombs from Florida as an attack on all of us, stand together, denounce it all, and stand behind/help those affected.
Feel like I need to point out that both the house and senate minority leaders as well as a panel on CNN criticized the comments from Waters right after she said them.
I agree with you that the far majority of politicians are lying hypocrites but I am also of the opinion that the "tone at the top" is important and part of the reason why I have been a critic of Trump.
I do weigh the things Trump says differently than someone like Waters.
Both can be wrong, but one has significantly more influence and that comes with more responsibility.
Sorry, things aren't equivalent. Trump calling Democrats evil and the enemy is not equivalent to Hillary saying we should not be civil to Republicans That is like being poked in the chest as opposed to being shot at.
I agree with you that it starts with our leaders to do the right thing for our country and that starts with Trump. Without the President taking the lead in fostering unity, this goes no where. He not only doesn't go and foster unity and togetherness but he provides the spark and gasoline to keep the country divided. Trump is in the bully pulpit and he is using it like no other President in the most reckless way imaginable.
To show you how bad it is, there are people I know personally that still think that the MAGA bomber is some sort of George Soros or Dem plot to win the election. And that the bomber will be killed like all the other people the Clintons have murdered. These are ridiculous conspiracy made up falsehoods that are being proliferated on right wing news, sites and other nonsense. Things are not equal.
If you’re saying both sides are hypocritical in their own ways on different issues i 1000% agree with you. I’m a registered independent and despised both Trump and Hillary in the ‘16 election.
The focus of my post you replied to was on a single instance of hypocrisy. Specifically, complaining about name calling in the same vacuum as defending Trump. Im certain I have failed to call out other instances of hypocrisy perpetrated by Democrats. Does that make me a hypocrite? Maybe so.
I have to conclude by saying you and SPK make great points about the division and hatred in this country. It’s infuriating to see. We can even see it in a close knit group of Seton Hall basketball fans. Maybe my original words in this thread were too near-sighted.
I'm sorry but all I see is a bunch of people who don't hold themselves accountable trying to hold Trump accountable. Who the hell is anyone who doesn't hold themselves accountable to hold someone else acccountable? That's my problem. I don't care if he's the president and they're not. These politicans have been playing games for years now they want to hold Trump accountable? Yet these people have a congressional slush fund to pay off sexual harrassment cases. In Biblical terms "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" I'm sorry but the news and the politicians on both sides need to look at themselves too. And they're not. Whatever happened to stepping up and saying Mr. President you're dividing us, but we as CNN or we as FOX, or we as politicians, are going to unite this country. I haven't seen that yet. They're all dividing us.
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Unfortunately, we are seeing a perfect storm of his divisiveness. Politicians historically have operated on the concept of creating fear. That is nothing new. Add the MSM who has amped up the noise on both sides in more outlets, and those same politicians feeding off it. Then you have the explosion of social media where everyone can express an opinion no matter how horrible. It spins out of control and incites a segment of people to do things to get their 15 minutes of fame. Those incidences get picked up by the MSM and continue the fan the flames. It’s neverending.
The "news" networks have no incentive to do that because purposely being divisive, having biased hosts and having endless panel discussions with one kook on the right shouting at one kook on the left gets them ratings.
It won't change until the people tune them out and hit them in the wallet.
Yes everyone is to blame according to you. But, let's take it from one of the all time great Presidents, Harry Truman. "The Buck Stops with Here." (the President.)
So do we blame Obama for Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, and all the hate that festered at that time? I certainly don't, but I guess according to you the buck stops with him. According to that logic, police brutality is the fault of Obama. In 8 years he didn't stop it. Yet I don't remember that tone by anyone during his time. Amazing.
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Obama actively used language to encourage police brutality? Not that I know of. Does Trump use language to divide this country? Damn right he does. Does he use language like calling the media the enemy of the people and Dems evil? He sure does. How can you deny that he is the great divider?
I guess the buck doesn’t stop with the President when you don’t want it to. It’s either the President is responsible for everything under his watch or not. Can’t have it both ways.
So if Trump disappeared tomorrow, do you think any of the rhetoric would subside?
Pretty outrageous ad. I do think if Trump goes that most of this rhetoric would disappear.
I don’t think it goes anywhere. Trump won. Politics is win at all costs.
If we're being completely honest, I do think at least some of the rhetoric would be toned down if Trump wasn't there.
The ad was interesting. I don't like the generalization about "Democrats let him stay," but the point of the ad is valid. There likely are a handful of bad people in most groups of migrants. There would be very few problems if these people would just get in line and go through the process legally. They can be properly vetted and we can let law-abiding people in and keep the dangerous people out. That's how immigration should work. Instead politicians and organizers exploit the issue because of the shameful demagoguing that ensues.
The ad was interesting. I don't like the generalization about "Democrats let him stay," but the point of the ad is valid. There likely are a handful of bad people in most groups of migrants. There would be very few problems if these people would just get in line and go through the process legally. They can be properly vetted and we can let law-abiding people in and keep the dangerous people out. That's how immigration should work. Instead politicians and organizers exploit the issue because of the shameful demagoguing that ensues.
Why?
The generic congressional ballot is around D+8 right now. It was R+9 this time in 2010.
That is very much a rejection of Trump's divisive rhetoric. There will always be some divisive politicians, but it is going to tone down once Trump is gone.
Because the MSM and social media have much more influence and will continue to have an increased effect. Trump just became the flashpoint for the MSM because he called them out. The genie is out of the bottle and social media will only serve to inflame more and more.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the midterms. The Dems are running against Trump for the most part and they want it that way. The Repubs are trying to run their elections some with Trumps help and others don't want Trumps help. Too bad in the end because the electorate should instead be able to choose the right candidate but the media has made this all about Trump. We lose again.
I don’t think there was anti-cop rhetoric coming from Obama but it was coming from community leaders with police involved shootings. But you are right that it has toned down. The reason is not the President. The reason is the more and more law enforcement is using Body Worn Cameras. These cameras have cut down the allegations of police brutality. Moreover, the times when cops have been abusing their authority, they have been being charged criminally. Cameras have been very useful to law enforcement. In my opinion, every town should have BWC on their officers.
Anti cop rhetoric aka "please don't shoot or strangle to death unarmed citizens"
This is straight up propaganda. Cherry picking a heinous crime by a sick and deranged individual and attributing it to an entire political party to scare old ladies and the less intelligent.
