How has it not?
He was murdered in the consulate and a body didn’t exit the building. He was murdered, and cut into pieces.
The people in the building work for the Saudi government.
Where is the disconnect here?
How Low Can Trump Stoop?
- Thread starter cernjSHU
- Start date
How has it not?
He was murdered in the consulate and a body didn’t exit the building. He was murdered, and cut into pieces.
The people in the building work for the Saudi government.
Where is the disconnect here?
Why do you and Merge think a dead Saudi journalist is cause for outrage but a dead Saudi homosexual or a dead Saudi woman is not? This whole "he was living in America and writing for an American newspaper" is not relevant. He was a Saudi national who poked a known butcherous regime and than had the gall to step into their embassy. Their was an enormous risk like stepping on a landmine. He should have stayed far away from those butchers.
Now we have to get involved??
Apparently the Saudis are innocent until proven guilty and that’s when Trump says it is.
What does getting involved mean? Is getting involved that we don’t send Pompeo into a meeting with the Crown Prince? Is getting involved that we condemn the actions of the Saudi government? Is getting involved that no government official will be attending that conference in Davos? Is getting involved that we do not support the war in Yemen?
There are all sorts of actions that can be taken that doesn’t mean boots on the ground. But we take a stand as a country that this is unacceptable.
I think the treatment of gays and women in Saudi has always been horrendous. But as a country, the policy has been to turn the blind eye to forward American interests. However, this murder of Kashoggi is blatant and it is without a doubt about who was responsible for it. Rare when you get such undeniable proof. Moreover, his status as a resident and a journa,it’s for the Post differentiates that from all the other horrendous things that The Saudi government does. As a country hard to turn a blind eye to this. To ignore this is to forego any leadership that the US has in the world.
This is where I disagree, this is blatant hypocrisy, he's not an American, the only difference is Trump is in charge now, that comes through from yours and Merge's prior postings on this board. Selective outrage not leadership.
Precedent says we ignore it (I don't agree), we have always been close to this despicable regime for years and years, we have made our bed.
Either we stay out of it or go full force in ending ties, etc.
This. Everything for merge and cern comes down to whether or not it’s a referendum on Trump. These are all despicable acts...be consistent in your outrage. And when you label those who disagree it doesn’t suit you. If I called you a “Hillary Suck-Up” when we disagreed, would that be accurate?
I can respect that view point. I understand that viewpoint of saying Saudi Arabia go to hell. Unfortunately, I believe it is way more complicated than that. The US has and will always be engaged in supporting governments that do reprehensible things. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We have supported the Mujadeen in Afghanistan which includes Osama Bin Laden. We were allies with the Soviet Union in WW2 despite Stalin killing 20 million of his own people. We have supported Pinochet in Chile who made tens of thousands of people disappear just because American corporations didn't want their land and business there to be nationalized. We propped up the Shah of Iran who tortured his people and led to the Islamic revolution in Iran.
We stayed on the sidelines in Darfur as hundreds of thousands of people were slaughtered with machetes. This is complicated business. But I differ with our opinion that we do nothing and say hey its ok. Trump exacerbated this by advocating the Saudi Crown by saying innocent until proven guilty.
I have no expectations that this will sever the relationship between the two countries. But, this makes the USA look weak and powerless. Our stance needs to condemn this and take some action. You are entitled to your opinion and I believe that any other President, Republican or Democrat, would have quickly condemned this murder and took some action. That is leadership without being naive to the way the world is that the US must engage in and be allies with governments that do not uphold American values.
Perhaps your extreme lack of intellect causes you to resort to name calling when you your argument is challenged.
Let's start with your defense of the title of the thread.
Let's continue with your and your sidekick Merge using information after the fact to bolster pre-mature conclusions drawn.
The fact that WAPO hired him and he f__ked up is not cause for me to get too worked up.
You still have not responded to motive. Again, do you think the Saudi's woke up and capriciously and arbitrarily decided to whack a journalist. You might want to understand why this was done.
I have no particular love of Trump and just what you leads you that conclusion, I have no idea. I am pretty confident though that you have a hatred for him and I can easily demonstrate what leads me that conclusion. So far, I am not opposed to the way he and Pompeo are handling this.
There is more going on here than meets the eye. Any fool can see that. As usual, you and you Trump hating team act as if you have the inside scoop.
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[QUOTE="cernjSHU, post: 532138, member: 154"I have no expectations that this will sever the relationship between the two countries. But, this makes the USA look weak and powerless. Our stance needs to condemn this and take some action. You are entitled to your opinion and I believe that any other President, Republican or Democrat, would have quickly condemned this murder and took some action. That is leadership without being naive to the way the world is that the US must engage in and be allies with governments that do not uphold American values.[/QUOTE]
You mean like drawing a red line on the use of chemical weapons and then being backing down when that line is crossed?
You mean like drawing a red line on the use of chemical weapons and then being backing down when that line is crossed?
Pete
Thanks for the kind words.
Unfortunately, my wife saw your post and told me I now have to toss my life sized Trump manaquin we keep in our living room.
Shit!
John, would you mind dropping off the mannequin off at my office tomorrow? I have a spot in my study right next to my Scaramucci bust.
You mean like drawing a red line on the use of chemical weapons and then being backing down when that line is crossed?[/QUOTE]
The red line comment and not doing anything about it was not a good move by Obama concerning an enemy. That’s objetive. And I can certainly criticize moves made by a Dem.
However, this is different case with an important Country that we have had relationships with for Decades. You want simple solutions to issues. Unfortunately, that’s not possible. This is all complex. But what isn’t complex is simply condemning The Saudi government. And not taking up their defense. That’s what simple and was not done by tus President.
Thank God you were able to rise above it.
This story was not a referendum on Trump for the 2 weeks I was following it before Trump commented. It was discussed quite a bit on reddit where I also talk about political issues.
Trump changed the narrative when he commented. Instead of wondering if the relatively new royal regime was responsible for the murder or a vocal critic, Trump basically washed his hands of it saying he wasn't a US citizen.
Even SPK, in his first post in this thread said -
All Trump had to say was that we are looking into it and condemn the murder. Don't lead off with giving the impression that the United States will allow other countries to start murdering journalists. We should all agree on this. We should expect more of a president and I would say the same thing of any US president.
hmm. Looks like Rand Paul ( King of All Libertarians) is with me on this point.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/22/politics/rand-paul-saudi-criticism/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/22/politics/rand-paul-saudi-criticism/index.html
Huh? Obama wussed out after setting a red line when Assad killed thousands in a chemical attack emboldening Assad to do it again in 2018 and it's just "not a good move" yet you're besides yourself with outrage because Trump made a stupid comment about a non-American heinously killed by a known heinous regime who we've always looked the other way on???
Agree with Obama made a mistake. But that was an action of war to take against the Syrian government during a time when the US had a bigger enemy to deal with in ISIS in Syria. . This is quite different Of expecting an American President to not defend a regime that just murdered a man. Look how all the other nations of the free world come out and condemn Saudi Arabia. We are not talking about war. We are talking about not condoning or defending a country that murdered someone. Doesn’t take much to do that. Yet this president fails at the simplist tasks.
What difference that he was not an American? He was a legal American resident and worked for an American paper and thus is cloaked in the protection of the US. Clearly he was a dissident and the US has traditionally stoood up for the rights of dissidents in authoritarian regimes especially when they come to live in the US.
If Obama was asked what would happen if Syria used chemical weapons and he responded that are they even US citizens, we would have all been disgusted by such a comment.
Obama didn't say anything crazy in 2012. Of course you want to try and discourage the use of chemical weapons with a threat of action, but because military action was not supported by the pubic or by congress by a fairly large margin in 2013, Obama didn't act without congressional approval in that instance. That was the correct decision at the time and supported by everyone on this board. We instead tried work diplomatically to remove their chemical weapons.
Hindsight being 20/20, we can certainly argue about the decisions we made - but you are comparing extraordinarily difficult decisions of whether we should be sending US troops in which will take a toll on our economy and cost American lives to Trump just saying something slightly critical towards Saudi Arabia.
I just want to say all you guys defending Trump like he's Big Daddy have ZERO moral ground to stand on when it comes to name calling. If you're going to support and defend a guy who gained political prominence by being a name-calling bully, a spray-tanned pseudo-strongman and someone who criticizes women for their periods and calling his opponents' wives ugly I'm going to point and laugh at you when you pretend to be offended by name calling. You're all hypocrites.
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Oh bullshit, Obama acted militarily plenty without congressional or the public's approval, see Libya, Yemen (with those Saudi bastards), et al.
I'm not defending Trump's words or (in)actions, just pointing out the rank hypocrisy of Trump Derangement Syndrome. I get it.
Unless you have an instance of a journalist for an American news outlet was murdered by their government and Obama brushed it off because they weren't american, you're comparison just isn't working.
We agreed at the time Obama shouldn't have acted in Libya without congressional approval.
We agreed at the time that we shouldn't go into Syria without congressional approval (and now you say he wussed out)
Somehow that leads you to think I am hypocritical because I want Trump to condemn the murder of a journalist for a US media outlet before he asks for his citizenship status?
You even agreed what Trump said was stupid so I don't really understand the point of your need to call other hypocrites for calling out Trump. Ask yourself if Trump would have had a different response if it was a Fox News contributor who was killed by a government he is already critical of.
You know he would have, and it is that is why we are critical of Trump here... He wouldn't have talked about citizenship or arms deals. He would have been extraordinarily critical of that country's leaders.
Charlie Hebdo.
The day of the event Obama issued a diplomatic speakese statement and then did squat.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...858eba91ced_story.html?utm_term=.1181f5c8b66e
If your definition of leadership is hollow talk then I guess you had your man back then.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...cials-attended-Paris-Charlie-Hebdo-rally.html
Save yourself the trouble of telling us that these weren't American journalists.
save yourself the trouble telling us they weren't murdered by an official state.
They were murdered by terrorists that our president for 8 years refused to recognize.
So to bring this back to the original question: Not as low as Obama.
The day of the event Obama issued a diplomatic speakese statement and then did squat.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...858eba91ced_story.html?utm_term=.1181f5c8b66e
If your definition of leadership is hollow talk then I guess you had your man back then.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...cials-attended-Paris-Charlie-Hebdo-rally.html
Save yourself the trouble of telling us that these weren't American journalists.
save yourself the trouble telling us they weren't murdered by an official state.
They were murdered by terrorists that our president for 8 years refused to recognize.
So to bring this back to the original question: Not as low as Obama.
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It took him 3 days to respond.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.pr...rder-of-a-u-s-teen-in-terror-attack-1.5425692
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.pr...rder-of-a-u-s-teen-in-terror-attack-1.5425692
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Kashoggi was murdered by his government, Hedbo was murdered by terrorists.
Both are obviously unacceptable, but you can't see a line there that would differentiate the murders?
and yes... Obama's response was to condemn the evil act.
He didn't wonder about Hebdo's US citizenship first, or talk about how many jobs we get from selling arms to Saudi Arabia.
Come on.
Your bias against Obama is severely clouding your judgement here.
He didn't say the victims were random. He said the act was random as in something you can't predict.
It is as clear as day especially when he is referring to the attackers as "violent, vicious zealots"
Violent, vicious zealots don't kill random people. They randomly kill people.
I think you should be able to understand that difference.
You're convinced that anything I say criticizing Trump is because of hatred yet SPK and Hall85 both agreed with my thoughts here that Trump handled this poorly and should have just said he condemns the murder and will look into it... but you see my name and assume whatever I said has to be because I hate Trump. It's similar to when you see Obama's name like the article above where it claims something he clearly didn't say.
You mean how Merge steered to it Obama?
I did not bring up Obama. The Super Bamas did.
Like Merge said....Come on!
I think "Give me a break" is another response used when you want to emphasize your arguments.
If you go back a read my posts, they started with the simple truth that we do yet know what went down.
Some post as if they were there.
"The body has not left the consulate". Classic. How does Merge know that. He stated it as fact. Was he tapped into the iPhone?
None of us know just yet who order the hit, how it was exactly done.
You want Trump to condemn the Saudi's out of the shoot. Then if he does and we find out it was not them, you will criticize for jumping the gun.
Why don't you just chill out and let this thing unfold.
To me it looks like Trump, Pense, Pompeo are biding time until they know better what happened and they can figure out a proper response. They can also get some backing from other nations and perhaps issue a stronger better response.
Yes, it looks strongly that he Saudis are behind this but anyone that states that now is just opining.
I'm OK with that. The Saudis are not going anywhere.
According to Merge that makes me "obtuse". OK, I'm obtuse.
Some post as if they were there.
"The body has not left the consulate". Classic. How does Merge know that. He stated it as fact. Was he tapped into the iPhone?
None of us know just yet who order the hit, how it was exactly done.
You want Trump to condemn the Saudi's out of the shoot. Then if he does and we find out it was not them, you will criticize for jumping the gun.
Why don't you just chill out and let this thing unfold.
To me it looks like Trump, Pense, Pompeo are biding time until they know better what happened and they can figure out a proper response. They can also get some backing from other nations and perhaps issue a stronger better response.
Yes, it looks strongly that he Saudis are behind this but anyone that states that now is just opining.
I'm OK with that. The Saudis are not going anywhere.
According to Merge that makes me "obtuse". OK, I'm obtuse.
That wasn't me.
The post you are referring to was someone comparing Obama's response to Syria to Trumps comments about a murdered journalist.
I said that comparison doesn't work.
I see why you're confused though. The user was Merge and you didn't read the rest of the thread because it's your dog whistle.
Because I read the news. His fiance was with him when he went in and she waited for hours for him to come out. He didn't come out.
No. No one is saying he needs to condemn the royal family out of the shot. He should condemn the murder of a journalist and say we are looking into it.
Instead he talked about how much they spend and if Kashoggi was a US citizen as of those items would make the US turn a blind eye to any country that wants to murder journalists who have opposing views.
I don't need to read it again. I can follow the conversation.
It was SPK who brought up the red line which turned the debate towards Syria.
I'm not calling you a dog whistle. I am suggesting that you get a bit triggered when you see my name.
That is my point.
The only fact there is that he did not leave with her.
Is there a back door? Did he (or the body) leave later?
At the time you wrote that, you did not have enough knowledge to state that he did not leave.
