Is it time for Israel to harness itself?
- Thread starter NYShoreGuy
- Start date
And where are all the other Arab countries in this? Shouldn’t they be providing safe passage and aid?
This is the perfect time to flee from Hamas. Grab your wife and kids and run. Tell Israel where Hamas is hiding and who is with Hamas.
While any and all deaths are tragic, the numbers are all over the place.
www.yahoo.com
UN revises Gaza death toll, almost 50% less women and children killed than previously reported
The United Nations suddenly adjusted its death toll count in Gaza to show that less women and children were killed, admitting widely quoted Hamas data is unreliable.
As many have pointed out, articles like this are deliberately conflating the number of identified casualties compared to identified casualties and people missing or still buried under rubble. People like Joe Scarborough spread this lie that they cut the number of women and children fatalities by 50%, obviously implying that they're just lying about the death toll.While any and all deaths are tragic, the numbers are all over the place.
UN revises Gaza death toll, almost 50% less women and children killed than previously reported
The United Nations suddenly adjusted its death toll count in Gaza to show that less women and children were killed, admitting widely quoted Hamas data is unreliable.
Here's the most recent update from OCHA.
United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #165
About 20 per cent of Gaza’s population have been displaced again in the past week, including from Rafah in the south and northern Gaza.
Biden super concerned about Palestinians haven’t heard him pressing Hamas to release all the hostages in return for a cease fire.i think Hamss worried about disclosing how many hostages have died in their custody so are hesitant to agree to this for a cease fire.When number is disclosed Hamas will try to maintain that most deaths were caused by Israel.I doubt anyone on this Biard will buy that argument with the possible exception of robot man.
You have this completely backwards. Hamas accepted the ceasefire terms for the release of hostages and Israel didn't. So your opinion about Hamas's motive for not releasing hostages, when they already agreed to a deal that would have released hostages, doesn't make sense.
You are not reading the news or my last post which states that Sec Blinken had said that if Hamas releases all the terorists there will be a cease fire. He urged Hamas to take the deal now.
I hate these phrases when people talk about war. You are implying that innocent men don't matter, only women and children. It's never okay to kill innocent people, whether they are man, woman, or child.
Not implying anything. The better term to use in this situation is “noncombatants”
Robert Gates on FTN today…said there are four ongoing conflicts in Middle East. All four (Hamas/Israel, Hezbolah/Israel, Houthi’s in Red Sea/Yemen and Syria attacks all have Iran backing. Said the administration needs to have a plan to deal with Iran.
What is Israel to do? If they give them a Palestinian State who do you think sets up shop there to continue with their goal of erasing Israel from the map. That would be Iran. That is what the Israeli's face every day.
The PLO could have had a Palestinian State years ago but they rejected Clinton's deal (huge mistake and Hillary is the one that continues to say that). They continue to accept aid from Iran with the intent to blow Israel off the map. The aid isn't to help Palestinians. Anyone who doesn't understand that Israel has no choices here, is not paying attention. Was it Israel that invaded Gaza in October? No it wasn't, but it will be Israel that will have to defend themselves and finish the job no matter what the rest of the world says. They have been alone for a long time and will continue to protect their sovereignty with or without the US. Sad that innocents are dying, but it doesn't seem like the Palestinians care or they would have released the hostages. Very sad but I don't blame Israel one bit.
The PLO could have had a Palestinian State years ago but they rejected Clinton's deal (huge mistake and Hillary is the one that continues to say that). They continue to accept aid from Iran with the intent to blow Israel off the map. The aid isn't to help Palestinians. Anyone who doesn't understand that Israel has no choices here, is not paying attention. Was it Israel that invaded Gaza in October? No it wasn't, but it will be Israel that will have to defend themselves and finish the job no matter what the rest of the world says. They have been alone for a long time and will continue to protect their sovereignty with or without the US. Sad that innocents are dying, but it doesn't seem like the Palestinians care or they would have released the hostages. Very sad but I don't blame Israel one bit.
What does finish the job mean though? I just don't see a solution here to get to a point of peace in the region.
Is it eliminating Hamas and the return of hostages and this is over? Or is it something else? The reason Israel doesn't really state what their plan is for a post war Gaza, is because Israel doesn't want a post war Gaza to include Palestinians.
Israel has to eliminate Hamas. The Palestinians have to get their act together and support an actual government other than Hamas. That hasn't happened because Hamas controls everything. It's a big problem, but Israel cannot back off now or Hamas comes right back (with Iran) and we are back where we started from.
Israeli's have been the ones who have helped Palestinians for years and gave them work and befriended them. Israeli's know the difference between Palestinians and their government. They've worked side by side with Palestinians for years. The Iran backed Hamas has to change or there will never be peace. Iran is the major problem in the region (also backing Hezbollah) and continues to be, complicating everything else including this debacle we are witnessing. This wasn't a cry out for Palestine to get their own country. This was an Iran-backed operation designed to kill and torture and rape Israelis. Let's call it what it is.
Israeli's have been the ones who have helped Palestinians for years and gave them work and befriended them. Israeli's know the difference between Palestinians and their government. They've worked side by side with Palestinians for years. The Iran backed Hamas has to change or there will never be peace. Iran is the major problem in the region (also backing Hezbollah) and continues to be, complicating everything else including this debacle we are witnessing. This wasn't a cry out for Palestine to get their own country. This was an Iran-backed operation designed to kill and torture and rape Israelis. Let's call it what it is.
but there’s a whole other side to this where Israel propped up Hamas because it prevented a more reasonable government working towards a Palestinian state.
I think that’s missing the other sides perspective.
Neither side will settle. There is no solution acceptable to both sides.
There is just no end in sight. Israel will attempt to cleanse Gaza of Palestinians, which is going to encourage more terrorism against Israel.
I’m not suggesting that Palestinians are the good guys here. I just don’t see a path to peace, and ethnic cleansing of Gaza is a short term “win” for Israel while displacing millions and killing tens of thousand innocent civilians.
It’s not ethnic cleansing.
Hamas is a terrorist organization and Israel has every right to eliminate them after what they did as we did with Isis.
Netanyahu is done once that happens and it will be up to his successor and majority party to figure out what’s next. But let’s be realistic…Israel negotiations with Palestinians is going to accomplish little until there is a plan to deal with Iran.
Agree… but, what are Israel’s options for Gaza?
The reason I keep asking about what’s next is that they don’t really have an option that isn’t ethnically cleansing Gaza of Palestinians.
Their end game will not include giving Gaza back to the Palestinians but making Gaza uninhabitable for Palestinians to come back.
Agree, but Israel not having a plan for Iran doesn’t mean they are free from criticism because they don’t have a plan of what to do with Palestinians either.
Why do you keep using that term? It’s not ethnic cleansing. Palestinians put themselves in
Where are the other Arab countries in helping? At the end of the day, Israel needs to protect it’s people.
You keep using the word ethnically cleansing. That is alarmist and not the goal and not what is happening. The goal is to rid Gaza of Hamas fighters and military capability, not all Palestinians. Israel is on their own here and this is their chance in their view. It would be better if fewer innocents were killed or hurt but Hamas hides in hospitals, in schools and more. Very difficult enemy to find let alone defeat. They will never use standard warfare instead they will hide behind innocent Palestinians and use them as human shields. This is a very complex engagement and unfortunately innocent folks will get hurt and that is not all the fault of the Israelis. Hamas is the one that started all of this and they continue to be OK with innocents being killed and using the hostages as their only bargaining chip.
Because Gaza will be cleared of Palestinians living there. That's the goal. Call it whatever term you like.
I disagree. That is what is happening. That will be the goal.
Why I keep asking about what this looks like after the war is that it will not include Palestinians living in Gaza.
It’s a war and the stated objective is eliminating Hamas. The ball is in their court. Surrender and return the hostages. If that happened there would not be civilian casualties.
That's a naive view of the potential end to this conflict, and you're basically saying that Israel can do nothing wrong because they were attacked.
You’re putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say they could do no wrong.
Why is eliminating Hamas naive? No different than eliminating Isis.
Not happening and won't happen. Too many eyes on this and too many Palestinians in Gaza. They are not going to kill millions of Palestinians. Their objective to rid Hamas from Gaza is clear. The next step of what it looks like after that is very unclear I agree with that. But ethnic cleansing is not the objective nor would it be supported by the Israeli people. Ethnic cleansing is a harsh word - you better be sure that is what is happening before you use it again.
Hamas does not want a two state solution.So either Palestinians leave or Israel ceases to exist.There is article with pictures today in the NY Post on treatment of 7 female IDF soldiers and discussion by Hamas of impregnating them.The only solution is to destroy Hamas.Who elected Hamas,that’s right it was the Palastinans save your tears for 9/11.
Ethnic cleansing doesn't mean they are all killed. While many have been and will be killed, It means Israel is going to make Gaza uninhabitable so Palestinians are forced out and unable to return to their homes and Israel will establish their own settlements in the area and "encourage" any remaining Palestinians to leave.
It's not just Hamas they want out. Ben Gvir, National Security Minister said just last week that the goal was to have Palestinians leave and Israeli settlements in Gaza.
It is harsh, and is their goal.
This just doesn't end with anything that looks like peace. Neither side wants peace.
Merge, just stop. You’re starting to sound like one of those moronic Columbia students.
Before October 7 was Israel trying to rid Gaza of Palestinians? Of course not. October 7 started a war and they are pursuing their stated objectives requiring the surrender or destruction of Hamas and getting the hostages returned. End of story.
And cherry picking a quote of one official does not make it the policy of Israel.
Just because I am critical of what Israel is doing doesn't mean I view the Palestinians as the good guys. I don't think there is a good guy here. Honestly just crazy to me that the US received more criticism on this board with the civilian casualties in Iraq than Israel receives here.
No, they thought they could control them by blocking their movement and propping up Hamas as their government. October 7th showed them they miscalculated.
The war didn't start there. Certainly escalated at the fault of Hamas but you're the destruction of Hamas is an unachievable goal. They are never going to surrender, and will continue to recruit members and will use Israel killing their human shields as a recruitment tool. A cycle with no end there.
I may be cherry picking but it's only because Israel doesn't really state a plan for post war objectives. What does Israel view post war Gaza looking like? We can only cherry pick because they aren't laying out an actual goal. There are plenty more I could use as well to support my view as well though.
“Everybody gets the fact that you have to destroy Hamas … but then what?” said retired Gen. Joseph Votel, who was the head of U.S. Central Command at the height of the fight against the Islamic State. “What’s the plan to take care of the 2.5 million Palestinians that are left behind? What’s the plan to deal with the remainder of the Hamas fighters? It seems incomplete and I just don’t think that they have communicated or have thought through that as well as I would’ve hoped they would’ve.”
You are recklessly throwing around the term of “ethnic cleansing”, where the only group that is demonstrating that is Hamas.
And what do you mean that the war didn’t start in October 7? It certainly did and while the destruction of Hamas may be difficult it’s an achievable goal. Should we have not set the goal of eliminating Isis? What should the message have been after 9/11? “We condemn Isis”?
And you continue to cherry pick opinions when no policy is in place. They mean nothing at this point. They have an objective which they have not deviated. Ball is in Hamas’ court. Let’s be real; any long term strategy they share now could potentially box them in downstream depending on how the war plays out.
Reckless? A it of a stretch there. Nothing in the world is impacted by our language here.
They both want ethnic cleansing. Israel wants Palestinians out of Palestine and Palestinians want Israelis out of Israel.
This is a generations long conflict between the two sides. Started well before I was born with no end in sight.
Probably Al Queda... but Al Queda is still around. We couldn't wipe them out.
We attacked them, as Israel should have attacked Hamas. We attacked their leadership, as Israel should with Hamas.
I have never suggested that Israel was wrong on those points, though in my opinion it seems Israel is more careless about civilian casualties and it seems they are planning to occupy Gaza after the war is over which is a short term win for Israel which will build up the anti-Israeli sentiment and create more terrorists against them.
My view, as shared by many well more versed on this topic than you or I, is that Israel needs a stated plan for what happens to Gaza after the war. You don't think that's necessary and will continue to believe that whatever number of innocent lives are lost in this conflict is worth their goal. I believe it is necessary to establish a plan that Palestinians will support so they turn against Hamas.
Lol…the stretch is that Israel wants ethnic cleansing. The fact that you keep bringing it up is really disturbing. Attempting to create any equivalency between Hamas and Israel is disgusting as far as I’m concerned.
Yes, there has been conflict, but the actions on October 7 …slaughtering civilians….triggered the war that followed.
Our message was to eliminate them. No different than Israel. Sure you can never have 100% success, but as we did with Al Queda, Israel should be able to beat them into submission.
Now you actually know what their post war strategy is? Interesting.
Once again, putting words in my mouth. There is no acceptable level of innocent lives lost. When you are fighting a terrorist group that is using those innocent people the blame should fall on them…not Israel.
After Israel eradicates Hamas from Gaza, Gaza should become part of Israel. Gazans have proven they can’t govern themselves. Those that remain will be in much, much better shape than they’ve ever been. Those that don’t want to stay should be relocated to the West Bank that should become the sovereign state of Palestine. Jerusalem will have to be split. Israel should not have Palestine on its southeast and northwest border.
Why should any country at war tip their hand? We were significantly criticized for tipping our hand on when we moved out of Afghanistan. It was dumb and it was reckless and a huge disaster that killed many and some are still being killed because of it.
Maybe Israel has a plan? Maybe they don't want to share it. Maybe we won't like it? But why on earth would they tip their hand? They are not stupid. The folks arguing that they need to tip their hand are.
Maybe Israel has a plan? Maybe they don't want to share it. Maybe we won't like it? But why on earth would they tip their hand? They are not stupid. The folks arguing that they need to tip their hand are.
Agree to disagree there.
I think there is a level of care you take to protect civilian lives when possible.
The US was criticized on this board for civilian deaths in Iraq, and we did not see the level of destruction in Iraq that is occurring in Gaza. The US has criticized Israel for violating international humanitarian law, but you give them a pass? It's odd.
Which is all part of a 70+ year battle, with no end in sight. Israel will occupy Gaza again in the name of safety and another generation of Palestinians will grow up hating Israel for taking the land.
As I said earlier, I believe that the only way this ends is if Israel can convince Palestinians to hate Hamas more than they hate Israel. If they can't do that, this is just another time of conflict between the two that will continue for another generation.
And you’ve just described a better long term goal than Israel has. (Though I don’t thing Israel or the Palestinians would be on board unfortunately)
