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Jerry’s column. “They’re right”

You never really know what the committee used to determine the picks... but bid stealers or not, 3 teams from the BE is absurd when we have the overall #1 seed, a #2 and #3? We didn't have a difficult OOC schedule, but our season was essentially unrecoverable after the Rutgers loss.

I have never been on the side of doing this, but it's time to abandon the Rutgers series in my opinion. The in state rivalry is fun, but it adds unnecessary pressure against a team that doesn't help our metrics even when we win, but kills us if we lose.

Schedule easy games against teams we should be able to run up the score to start the season and throw in a couple tougher games towards the end of the OOC that won't kill you if you lose one.
 
You never really know what the committee used to determine the picks... but bid stealers or not, 3 teams from the BE is absurd when we have the overall #1 seed, a #2 and #3? We didn't have a difficult OOC schedule, but our season was essentially unrecoverable after the Rutgers loss.

I have never been on the side of doing this, but it's time to abandon the Rutgers series in my opinion. The in state rivalry is fun, but it adds unnecessary pressure against a team that doesn't help our metrics even when we win, but kills us if we lose.

Schedule easy games against teams we should be able to run up the score to start the season and throw in a couple tougher games towards the end of the OOC that won't kill you if you lose one.
As soon as we do that they'll probably change the way they look at metrics.
 
The thing that annoys me is there's no consistency. Quad 1 wins clearly aren't important, look no further than MSU and UVA. Quad 3/4 losses must not be important, look at Texas A&M. So what is important? What does the BE need to do in the future to placate the committee? Were Depaul and Georgetown really that big of a drag on the conference? Seeing the Pac12 get 4 bids along with the Mountain West receiving 6 while the BE receives 3 seems absurd.
 
What is Val Ackerman’s problem. She should have been loud last night demanding answers why her conference was treated so badly. It’s time to publish the math and the Committee to stop hiding behind their criteria.
VAl just rattle off stats that worked against not only us but the conference . do or say something !!!
 
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I do believe we were just as qualified as a few of the teams that got in over us but if you want to compete with the big boys you have to be better. Losing by 19 to another bubble team during tournament week along with some crazy, wild ass upsets cost us a spot. I also believe that we are currently in no way the same team we were when we steamrolled UCONN, Marquette, Butler & St. Johns. As a matter of fact we haven't been really good since the 3OT Creighton game. We were decent afterwards but just not that team as before.
 
THe conference needs stronger and more respected leadership than Ackerman and Felt to get respect of their NCAA peers.
 
The thing that annoys me is there's no consistency. Quad 1 wins clearly aren't important, look no further than MSU and UVA. Quad 3/4 losses must not be important, look at Texas A&M. So what is important? What does the BE need to do in the future to placate the committee? Were Depaul and Georgetown really that big of a drag on the conference? Seeing the Pac12 get 4 bids along with the Mountain West receiving 6 while the BE receives 3 seems absurd.

My guess is that it was OOC wins.

Texas A&M had Iowa state
Michigan State had Baylor
Virginia had Florida and Texas A&M
Colorado St had Creighton

Comparing our OOC results to those is ugly.

That said, it should have been something we should have been able to correct (and did in my opinion) during the conference season.
 
Because the criteria is what they hide behind. It's all a Shell game. They have their teams that they want in and then fit the criteria to fit their desired outcome. So they can't print it.
Agreed. Anyone who works for a large organization knows how perverse the practical use of data and analytics are. The more data points you have the more they conflict and thus are cherry picked to justify a predetermined outcome.

"The Boss really wants this to go through, so lets use these points to push the narrative and ignore the others." This is exactly what happened data point were used to enforce whatever they wanted. You wont get a straight answer from the committee cause there is none. By Thursday afternoon this will all be forgotten.

You may only get clarity after the tournament is over if one of the controversial teams make a run or if the big east flams out. "See we know what we were doing."
 
Missouri, USC and Iowa were not signed up to be "wins". They were signed to be high end games. It didn't work out. MO goes from the dance to 0-18 in league, and we pay the price for that. SC was a top 20 team when we played them. Injuries killed them. Why doesn't that have any influence?
I guess Big 12 fans are pleased; they picked the right road, beating SWAC teams by 50, playing 20 home games, as if margin of victory should have any say in selection. Different rules for different schools. It feels like the Olympics in the 70's and 80's, without knowing who the "East German" judges were.
 
your best non conference win was Missouri...its an issue..you have terrible metrics....and only 11-12 in Q1/2/3. Virginia was 17-10 in Q1/2/3Yes 2 tremendous wins but little else.

it was an usual year...3-4 bid stealers, SHU would be in without bid stealers..do not overthink, it wasnt a screwjob...your resume was too close to the cut line and it burned you
 
I'm old school and we know that coach is old school, that's what I respect most about him. Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't we up on UConn by 20+ points in the second half when we took our foot off the gas. A similar scenario in our home game against SJU.

The sad reality is that we may have to just blow teams off the court when we have the opportunity.

I believe that the programming in the NET metrics values football conferences over basketball only conferences. If not fixed the bias will always hurt the Big East.
 
Missouri, USC and Iowa were not signed up to be "wins". They were signed to be high end games. It didn't work out. MO goes from the dance to 0-18 in league, and we pay the price for that. SC was a top 20 team when we played them. Injuries killed them. Why doesn't that have any influence?
I guess Big 12 fans are pleased; they picked the right road, beating SWAC teams by 50, playing 20 home games, as if margin of victory should have any say in selection. Different rules for different schools. It feels like the Olympics in the 70's and 80's, without knowing who the "East German" judges were.
I get that we are all frustrated. But what I can’t stand are misleading narratives and incorrect facts.

Let’s debunk this USC was ranked 20th when we played them stuff.

They finished 15-18 and 8-12 in the PAC12

They had 11 guys on their roster that averaged more than 10 mpg this year. All but Bronny James played in our game. And all 11 players played in 26 games or more.

They were a garbage team. There is no way around that. We lost to a team that was not in the top 90 teams in the country based on the NET. I don’t care if that is a Q2 or Q3 game. They SUCKED and we lost to them.

Rutgers SUCKED and we lost to them.

Our best OOC win was a team that went 0-18 in their conference. Barely beat them. THEY SUCKED TOO.

It DOES NOT matter what the expectation was when we signed up to play them. Those teams did not end up being anywhere close to higher end opponents.
 
You never really know what the committee used to determine the picks... but bid stealers or not, 3 teams from the BE is absurd when we have the overall #1 seed, a #2 and #3? We didn't have a difficult OOC schedule, but our season was essentially unrecoverable after the Rutgers loss.

I have never been on the side of doing this, but it's time to abandon the Rutgers series in my opinion. The in state rivalry is fun, but it adds unnecessary pressure against a team that doesn't help our metrics even when we win, but kills us if we lose.

Schedule easy games against teams we should be able to run up the score to start the season and throw in a couple tougher games towards the end of the OOC that won't kill you if you lose one.
Agree on deep-sixing the RU series, but to your point, this is just another thing that is wrong with the way the game is going. Let's eliminate natural rivalries that the fans attend and scream the loudest, in order to satisfy some criteria to be eligible for the NCAA.

Seems to fly in the face of what collegiate sports should be. Add NIL, the portal, constant conference reshuffling, the latest metric of the day and here is where we are. Now I know why so many of the good coaches are retiring.
 
I'm old school and we know that coach is old school, that's what I respect most about him. Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't we up on UConn by 20+ points in the second half when we took our foot off the gas. A similar scenario in our home game against SJU.

The sad reality is that we may have to just blow teams off the court when we have the opportunity.

I believe that the programming in the NET metrics values football conferences over basketball only conferences. If not fixed the bias will always hurt the Big East.
Another misleading incorrect fact. So I will correct you since you’re wrong. .

We led by 17 with 3:26 to play and by our largest margin of the game (19) with 1:26 to play.

Not sure how we took our foot of the gas.

Should we have run up the score by another 10 in the final 90 seconds?

That would have made the difference of getting in or not?
 
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your best non conference win was Missouri...its an issue..you have terrible metrics....and only 11-12 in Q1/2/3. Virginia was 17-10 in Q1/2/3Yes 2 tremendous wins but little else.
SHU 5 Quad 1 wins
VA 2 Quad 1 wins

SHU 2 wins over Top 12 teams
VA 0 wins over Top 25

Let's see how VA does against CSU on Tuesday.
 
Another misleading incorrect fact. So I will correct you since you’re wrong. .

We led by 17 with 3:26 to play and by our largest margin of the game (19) with 1:26 to play.

Not sure how we took our foot of the gas.

Should we have run up the score by another 10 in the final 90 seconds?

That would have made the difference of getting in or not?
I said correct me if I'm wrong, nothing misleading. 19 points is only 2 off of 20+.

"Taking our foot of the gas" are Sha's words, and there were enough games where we did it.

DID I STEAL YOUR LUNCH MONEY WHEN WE WERE KIDS? I APOLOGIZE IF I DID!!!
 
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I do believe we were just as qualified as a few of the teams that got in over us but if you want to compete with the big boys you have to be better. Losing by 19 to another bubble team during tournament week along with some crazy, wild ass upsets cost us a spot. I also believe that we are currently in no way the same team we were when we steamrolled UCONN, Marquette, Butler & St. Johns. As a matter of fact we haven't been really good since the 3OT Creighton game. We were decent afterwards but just not that team as before.
The VA Tech 35 point win over Virginia and the. Nc state beating them was no issue?

Did Georgetown beat Dayton?

Did FAU looks strong Saturday against temple?
 
It all doesn't matter, the committee wanted those teams at the expense of the big east terms. You can twist yourself in their logic but it all comes down to that. Could we have done more absolutely, but quite frankly this team overachieved as it is.

As Seton Hall fans we have to recognize their will be an inherent bias against us in NCAA selection and manage accordingly.

Is there anything we can do to fix it? I don't know we are a small school that will never bring the money/ratings of a large public power conference school. Have to hope when Sha eventually gets back in the dance we make a Saint Peter's like run and the Sha/Seton Hall brand becomes something the casual fan wants to watch. (like a Gonzaga).
 
I'm old school and we know that coach is old school, that's what I respect most about him. Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't we up on UConn by 20+ points in the second half when we took our foot off the gas. A similar scenario in our home game against SJU.

The sad reality is that we may have to just blow teams off the court when we have the opportunity.

I believe that the programming in the NET metrics values football conferences over basketball only conferences. If not fixed the bias will always hurt the Big East.
This is made up

Your metrics have nothing to do with football conferences
 
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I said correct me if I'm wrong, nothing misleading. 19 points is only 2 off of 20+.

"Taking our foot of the gas" are Sha's words, and there were enough games where we did it.

DID I STEAL YOUR LUNCH MONEY WHEN WE WERE KIDS? I APOLOGIZE IF I DID!!!
I don’t care if you were only off by 2 points.

“Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't we up on UConn by 20+ points in the second half when we took our foot off the gas”

This was your comment not SHA’s.

Sha was talking about taking the foot off the gas against his Quad 4 oppenents.

There is no such thing as taking your foot off the gas with 1:26 to play when the other team has possession of the ball. The final score of any game could swing one or two baskets either way. This is just an out in left field take.

We are ALL upset today. I also believe we have a strong case over MSU / UVA this morning. But the nit picking over such trivial stuff is ridiculous.

The committee sucked IMO when it came to a couple team evaluations. But they didn’t leave out some dominant teams whose resume blows everyone out of the water.

Every team on the bubble had Pros and Cons. We just didn’t get selected. It hurts, it stings, the wound is still fresh, but we are saying the committee went out of its way to “screw” Seton Hall from a spot in the Play In game.
 
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your best non conference win was Missouri...its an issue..you have terrible metrics....and only 11-12 in Q1/2/3. Virginia was 17-10 in Q1/2/3Yes 2 tremendous wins but little else.

it was an usual year...3-4 bid stealers, SHU would be in without bid stealers..do not overthink, it wasnt a screwjob...your resume was too close to the cut line and it burned you
metrics are repeatedly stated by the committee themselves to not count towards picking teams. so now what. either you're wrong or theyre liars.

its actually both.
 
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I don’t care if you were only off by 2 points.

“Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't we up on UConn by 20+ points in the second half when we took our foot off the gas”

This was your comment not SHA’s.

Sha was talking about taking the foot off the gas against his Quad 4 oppenents.

There is no such thing as taking your foot off the gas with 1:26 to play when the other team has possession of the ball. The final score of any game could swing one or two baskets either way. This is just an out in left field take.

We are ALL upset today. I also believe we have a strong case over MSU / UVA this morning. But the nit picking over such trivial stuff is ridiculous.

The committee sucked IMO when it came to a couple team evaluations. But they didn’t leave out some dominant teams whose resume blows everyone out of the water.

Every team on the bubble had Pros and Cons. We just didn’t get selected. It hurts, it stings, the wound is still fresh, but we are saying the committee went out of its way to “screw” Seton Hall from a spot in the Play In game.
in a way they did. because they went out of their way to justify teams that shouldn't be in. the justification of which works better for seton hall. so yea... im not usually on this side but after a nights sleep i'm even further entrenched in it. im buying real estate in "F the committee, F the ncaa" land.
 
I do believe we were just as qualified as a few of the teams that got in over us but if you want to compete with the big boys you have to be better. Losing by 19 to another bubble team during tournament week along with some crazy, wild ass upsets cost us a spot. I also believe that we are currently in no way the same team we were when we steamrolled UCONN, Marquette, Butler & St. Johns. As a matter of fact we haven't been really good since the 3OT Creighton game. We were decent afterwards but just not that team as before.
I agree with this take. I thought even if we made it, then we would need to play a lot more like that December/early January team then the February/March team to advance past the first game.
 
They didn't deserve to get in from my view, but it was the win against Baylor that likely did it for them.
As I said I think you could have made an argument for MSU / UVA to not be in the dance.

But if I were to play devils advocate and defend Michigan St., here is how I would do it.

Strength of schedule 14th in the country. We were 44. They Only played four quad 4 opponents we played 9.

Their SOS is not over inflated by their conference only like someone from the B12. Their OOC SOS was 44. We were 226.

Win against Baylor (N) by 22 when we lost to the same team on the road by 18.
Win against fellow bubble team Indiana St.
Win against 13 NET Illinois at home.

Our two big wins plus SJU (2) are better than those big wins for them. But not a monumental margin. @ Providence and @ Butler look like OK / decent wins now. Nothing Quad 1 spectacular.

They played AZ (lost by 6) Duke (lost by 9) Purdue twice (lost by 5 and 6). We played other top teams and got absolutely crushed.

We only have 1 more total win than them. And 2 less losses. Not a huge difference either.

they were 15-14 Q1/2/3, we were 11-12

Lastly their NET is 25 and ours is 67.

I thought our big wins could put us ahead of them but the overall body of work you can say that MSU has a case to be in over a team like Seton Hall.

Besides the UConn win where does our resume out class theirs?
 
Thing that annoys me is teams like north carolina, dayton etc. Who lay down in their conference tournaments
Maybe it's sour grapes but so predictable
 
Besides the UConn win where does our resume out class theirs?


They went .500 in conference. we were .65
They were 2-8 against the top half of their conference (cut off at 6 since they finished 7), we were 6-6 against our top 6 (add a loss for each if you include conference tournament)
The were 3-7 on the road, we were 5-7
They have 3 quad 1 wins and we have 5.

Their OOC was better by a fair amount. After that, we were better by a fair amount.
All games being equal, I don't see them ahead of us. Factoring in OOC games more heavily than regular season and I get it... but that's crap.
 
As I said I think you could have made an argument for MSU / UVA to not be in the dance.

But if I were to play devils advocate and defend Michigan St., here is how I would do it.

Strength of schedule 14th in the country. We were 44. They Only played four quad 4 opponents we played 9.

Their SOS is not over inflated by their conference only like someone from the B12. Their OOC SOS was 44. We were 226.

Win against Baylor (N) by 22 when we lost to the same team on the road by 18.
Win against fellow bubble team Indiana St.
Win against 13 NET Illinois at home.

Our two big wins plus SJU (2) are better than those big wins for them. But not a monumental margin. @ Providence and @ Butler look like OK / decent wins now. Nothing Quad 1 spectacular.

They played AZ (lost by 6) Duke (lost by 9) Purdue twice (lost by 5 and 6). We played other top teams and got absolutely crushed.

We only have 1 more total win than them. And 2 less losses. Not a huge difference either.

they were 15-14 Q1/2/3, we were 11-12

Lastly their NET is 25 and ours is 67.

I thought our big wins could put us ahead of them but the overall body of work you can say that MSU has a case to be in over a team like Seton Hall.

Besides the UConn win where does our resume out class theirs?
Even if you do mental gymnastics to make a case for MSU, they got what seed? And we are out. I don't doubt that Izzo got the benefit of the doubt like Boeheim used to get. How many 14-loss at large teams got in this year?
 
As I said I think you could have made an argument for MSU / UVA to not be in the dance.

But if I were to play devils advocate and defend Michigan St., here is how I would do it.

Strength of schedule 14th in the country. We were 44. They Only played four quad 4 opponents we played 9.

Their SOS is not over inflated by their conference only like someone from the B12. Their OOC SOS was 44. We were 226.

Win against Baylor (N) by 22 when we lost to the same team on the road by 18.
Win against fellow bubble team Indiana St.
Win against 13 NET Illinois at home.

Our two big wins plus SJU (2) are better than those big wins for them. But not a monumental margin. @ Providence and @ Butler look like OK / decent wins now. Nothing Quad 1 spectacular.

They played AZ (lost by 6) Duke (lost by 9) Purdue twice (lost by 5 and 6). We played other top teams and got absolutely crushed.

We only have 1 more total win than them. And 2 less losses. Not a huge difference either.

they were 15-14 Q1/2/3, we were 11-12

Lastly their NET is 25 and ours is 67.

I thought our big wins could put us ahead of them but the overall body of work you can say that MSU has a case to be in over a team like Seton Hall.

Besides the UConn win where does our resume out class theirs?
What do you think of the Committee discounting our UConn win because Clingan missed part of the 2nd half when he was injured on a play in which he picked up a 3rd foul, and not discounting our 2 losses without our first team All Big East player (which Clingan was not mostly due to injury)?

My issue is with the moving of the goal posts on all the data by the Committee. There is enough there to make an argument for any of the teams considered and I just don't believe the data said this conference should only have 3 teams.
 
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Even if you do mental gymnastics to make a case for MSU, they got what seed? And we are out. I don't doubt that Izzo got the benefit of the doubt like Boeheim used to get. How many 14-loss at large teams got in this year?
Geez. The whole purpose of the exercise (and someone else asked for the record) was to see if the MSU case could be defended.

I just provided a non Seton Hall bias perspective.

While at the same time saying before every post I would have taken or would have considered Seton Hall over MSU/UVA. could probably analyze all the teams in Dayton and make a case for Seton Hall.

The point is it’s the bubble and the committee has a subjective take. Always going to be that way.
 
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What do you think of the Committee discounting our UConn win because Clingan missed part of the 2nd half when he was injured on a play in which he picked up a 3rd foul, and not discounting our 2 losses without our first team All Big East player (which Clingan was not mostly due to injury)?

My issue is with the moving of the goal posts on all the data by the Committee. There is enough there to make an argument for any of the teams considered and I just don't believe the data said this conference should only have 3 teams.
I am ok with their analysis of the Clingan injury to be honest. He was having a great game up until that point. We had no answer for him in the rematch. Yes he was headed to the bench with 3 fouls with them trailing by 6 after the Bediko FTs, but Hurley isn’t leaving him on the bench if the game was getting away from them. I do believe we would have still won, but not in the dominating fashion we did. But there is the argument that the end result could have significantly been in doubt if their star player was still on the floor.

However, you make a great point, and Kadary being out at home vs Providence in a 4 point loss, should have been weighted into the equation just as much.

Can’t have it one way and not the other. Poor job by the committee on that overall injury analysis.
 
The Committee spokespeople always give these brainless explanations. It happens every year. The cutline is basically a lottery. They are throwing darts for the last few spots and can defend or discredit any resume because of the infinite number of criteria at their disposal. Even a guy like Brad Wachtel - who clearly studies this stuff like a madman - can't get it 100% right. There's a reason for that.

If you want to be safe from the nonsense, you really need to get above the cutline. For a major conference school, that is not particularly difficult. In a normal year, we did enough to feel safe. This year we got unlucky with the conference tournament runout. It sucks, but it's not some grand conspiracy.
 
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