Joe Crowley goes DOWN!

[Bobbie Solo]

On an otherwise depressing day in gov’t & politics with the disgusting, racist travel ban being upheld & setting civil & human rights backwards in this country (as well as continuing to destroy our image & standing around the world), at least us progressives scored some primary victories. Corrupt as hell Joe Crowley, the fourth strongest House Dem & supposedly the next House speaker, went down in flames 58-42% to 28 year old Justice Democrat Alexandria Ovadia-Cortez! A political newbie, she was a community organizer for Bernie. Huh...maybe that’s not such a bad gig after all.

Crowley represented parts of Queens and the Bronx, but somehow ended as the top Wall St money receiver on the Dem side. Well I hope he enjoys whatever kushy lobbyist job he has lined up in 2019. He outspent Cortez 10-1 and still got shellacked. Major major blow to the establishment corporatist Dems.

The other great result I saw tonight was former NAACP Head Ben Jealous winning the Dem primary for governor in Maryland. Another great progressive voice. Exactly the type that should be in charge in one of the bluest states in the country.

 

[shu09]

1) I'm glad Crowley lost. The Republicans have mounted successful campaigns against the establishment before (tea party, Cantor going down four years ago and Trump winning). Now it seems the Democrats are catching on.

2) The travel ban is not racist. If it was, all Muslim countries would be banned. Also, last time I checked, North Korea and Venezuela are NOT Muslim countries. What the administration MUST do is either make it expire after a specific amount of time or end it now. There was supposed to be a 90-day review. Now that the action has now been (rightly) affirmed as constitutional, the ball is back in the court of the administration. They must act on their original statement.

3) What civil rights and human rights are going backwards? Americans, specifically minority groups, have never been more free. Gays are free to marry. More Hispanics and blacks are working than ever before. Women are standing up to men who abused their power.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

@cernjSHU @Merge @shuvrp @knowknow456 @Muggsy Blue & others...thoughts on this major loss for the corrupt corporate Dems? This is the first major Justice Democrat victory over an establishment candidate with some real power in the party I think (Guys like Ro Kanna are already in office, but didn’t topple big time incumbents). I read some things on Vox I think comparing this to the Eric Holder primary loss in 2014. It’s similar sure, but not nearly as big as that one imo.

Let’s get a few more Justice Dems in and they can form a small caucus...progress!

 

[Bobbie Solo]

Oh and Cuomo...you’re next (hopefully, but not looking good).

 

[cernjSHU]

@cernjSHU @Merge @shuvrp @knowknow456 @Muggsy Blue & others...thoughts on this major loss for the corrupt corporate Dems? This is the first major Justice Democrat victory over an establishment candidate with some real power in the party I think (Guys like Ro Kanna are already in office, but didn’t topple big time incumbents). I read some things on Vox I think comparing this to the Eric Holder primary loss in 2014. It’s similar sure, but not nearly as big as that one imo.

Let’s get a few more Justice Dems in and they can form a small caucus...progress!

Don’t know much about Crowley. However, taking Wall St money does not make him corrupt. You obviously have more info that I would like to hear. Second, this is the danger area of the Democratic Party as I see it. Going too far left is not the answer for this Country. It further polarizes the nation and in the end makes winning elections more difficult. There is a difficult balance that must be maintained.

 

[shu09]

Don’t know much about Crowley. However, taking Wall St money does not make him corrupt. You obviously have more info that I would like to hear. Second, this is the danger area of the Democratic Party as I see it. Going too far left is not the answer for this Country. It further polarizes the nation and in the end makes winning elections more difficult. There is a difficult balance that must be maintained.

The country is crying out for a third party. Hopefully a party that positions itself in the middle, where I still believe most Americans reside (despite the radical left and radical right increasing their influence in recent years).

 

[shupat08]

The country is crying out for a third party. Hopefully a party that positions itself in the middle, where I still believe most Americans reside (despite the radical left and radical right increasing their influence in recent years).

If you truly expect a 3rd party to emerge we need to change almost everything about our election/campaign laws, debate structure/ laws and probably our governmental structure as well.

Not going to happen. Sadly.

From what I know of other countries political/electoral structures. I personally like how Australia and Ireland run their governments/elections.

 

[cernjSHU]

Watching Alexandria Ocasio interview. Promises of free tuition, Medicare for all, Federal loan forgiveness, and federal jobs for all (my favorite). The reality of is how do you pay for it? Her answer was the federal tax breaks given to the rich could have paid for all of this. This is just pie in the sky thinking. We also have something called the national debt which needs to be paid down. What about the infrastructure of our country and our electrical grid. This is a joke. Populist thinking or outright lies from both extremes do nothing for this country. I can tell already that she has no idea to govern and will do nothing.

 

[Hall-line-forever]

There is no third party that will ever be relevant - Reform, Bull Moose. Green, etc.

I’m terrified that a socialist / communist millennial won victory and proves that Democrats are on the lunatic fringe. Free everything for everyone is so easy for these people to promise. Let’s see how she does on a table of 538. None of her nonsensical bills will get passed.

By the way, the real story last night is about about Yvette Clarke in East Brooklyn squeaking by at her Dem primary. The district had her mom in the seat for many years. People are sick of elected entitled giveaway seats on both sides.

In addition, the Republican running against her is a nice Haitian- American man who has a lot of promise in the Republican Party. He is about unity and is a little right of center, so please - enough of the race-baiting.

 

[cernjSHU]

College tuition for all? That answer is actually simple. Check our military spending costs and compare them to China, Russia, et al... Also have to wonder how many "black book" military expenses there are that end up like that defunct plane that never worked or like when Bush 2 put the Iraq and Afghan war budgets on the "black book" secret budget... As well as big pharma and big farm tax credits and government funding (Monsanto and Johnson & Johnson don't need more tax credits and gov aid). That'd free up a shit load of $$ immediately.

There were studies done a few years ago. That defunct fighter plane that the military was pouring $$ into for years could have paid for like 90% of all college students tuition in the US.

Agree about infrastructure and electrical/power grid. Maybe 1 or 2 less BS military planes that will never fly and our grid and infrastructure could all be 21st century?

The military spending in this county is around $525 billion dollars a year. Medicare in this country costs over $600 billion. You now want to say double that for medicare for all. Now add on to free tuition and jobs for all. What about paying down the national debt that will strangle us. This is not possible. There is a thing called math. What this type of thinking is just the opposite side of the coin of Trumpism. All simple populism nonsense and lies that will lead to the destruction of this country. This is just the extreme left version of lies.

 

[shupat08]

The military spending in this county is around $525 billion dollars a year. Medicare in this country costs over $600 billion. You now want to say double that for medicare for all. Now add on to free tuition and jobs for all. What about paying down the national debt that will strangle us. This is not possible. There is a thing called math. What this type of thinking is just the opposite side of the coin of Trumpism. All simple populism nonsense and lies that will lead to the destruction of this country. This is just the extreme left version of lies.

I responded to tuition for all. Hence my "College tuition for all?" start to my answer. That's it. Reading comprehension, sometimes, is key.

No mention of the wasteful black book spending or the socialistic capitalism of big pharma and farm give aways?

 

[shu09]

Watching Alexandria Ocasio interview. Promises of free tuition, Medicare for all, Federal loan forgiveness, and federal jobs for all (my favorite). The reality of is how do you pay for it? Her answer was the federal tax breaks given to the rich could have paid for all of this. This is just pie in the sky thinking. We also have something called the national debt which needs to be paid down. What about the infrastructure of our country and our electrical grid. This is a joke. Populist thinking or outright lies from both extremes do nothing for this country. I can tell already that she has no idea to govern and will do nothing.

Luckily she isn't that important in the grand scheme. Just one of 435, assuming she wins the general election.

What I fear is her radical ideas becoming more mainstream. They will bankrupt the country and fleece hardworking taxpayers. We're already heading towards a debt crisis in the mid to long term. Politicians like this woman will only accelerate that with their backwards thinking.

 

[Merge]

Second, this is the danger area of the Democratic Party as I see it. Going too far left is not the answer for this Country. It further polarizes the nation and in the end makes winning elections more difficult.

Dems have been playing the middle and performing horribly though.

I’ve been following NY14 ever since I saw her ad, and I’m super excited about her. Not because it is a shift left but because the party needs new blood that people can rally around. Stop putting up politicians as someone you vote for only to vote against the other party. Start giving us people with passion (and she has a ton of it) In the last week Crowley had a fundraiser in DC with a $500 minimum. Ocasio-Cortez was out getting supporters willing to go knock on doors after their day jobs. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with fundraising but I will support any candidate that can build the support of their community. That is what she did. She is the right representative for her district and I am exited to watch her get to work.

 

[SPK145]

Not because it is a shift left but because the party needs new blood that people can rally around.

Insert "right" for "left" and that is how we got Trump. We deserve better.

 

[Merge]

Watching Alexandria Ocasio interview. Promises of free tuition, Medicare for all, Federal loan forgiveness, and federal jobs for all (my favorite). The reality of is how do you pay for it? Her answer was the federal tax breaks given to the rich could have paid for all of this. This is just pie in the sky thinking. We also have something called the national debt which needs to be paid down. What about the infrastructure of our country and our electrical grid. This is a joke. Populist thinking or outright lies from both extremes do nothing for this country. I can tell already that she has no idea to govern and will do nothing.

I am not on board with everything she proposes just like every politician. But please don't make her out to be some kind of boogeyman trying to take your tax money like people did with Sanders. She has progressive views and would not be able to implement everything she wants but can she help build support across the country where we are more open to policies benefiting the working class? I believe she can

Saying you can tell she has no idea how to govern is so insulting.

Her job was to win a primary against an establishment candidate. She did so incredibly well.
Her next job is to win a house seat which she will likely do incredibly easily. Then her job is to govern.
Give her a chance.

 

[SPK145]

Her job was to win a primary against an establishment candidate. She did so incredibly well.
Her next job is to win a house seat which she will likely do incredibly easily. Then her job is to govern.
Give her a chance.

LOL.

Again, sounds EXACTLY like Trump. Practice what you preach, hypocrite.

 

[Merge]

Insert "right" for "left" and that is how we got Trump. We deserve better.

Stop. Not every new politician who excites people will be a comparison to Trump.

The people of the NY 14 district deserve someone who knows and understands their constituents.
That is what they will be getting.

 

[cernjSHU]

I responded to tuition for all. Hence my "College tuition for all?" start to my answer. That's it. Reading comprehension, sometimes, is key.

No mention of the wasteful black book spending or the socialistic capitalism of big pharma and farm give aways?

You mean secret military projects? Yes, somethings need to be kept hidden for security measures. While the military budget is probably bloated, there are more important things to spend on than free tuition for all.

Spending cannot be considered in a vacuum. There is a finite amount of dollars and many different projects competing for those dollars. So tuition for all is your priority spending? Quite frankly this is low on the priorities. So let's discuss Free Tuition for all. What does that cost per year? Bernie once estimated at $70 Billion a year. So now as you govern what is competing for that $70 billion. Well, there was an estimate that to fix infrastructure in this country would cost $200 billion a year for 10 years. That would be more important. Paying down the debt would be more important. Medicare for all would be a priority over free tuition. Estimates for a new electrical grid would be could be as much as $5 trillion. It is easy to talk about things in a vacuum. But that is not reality.

 

[Merge]

LOL.

Again, sounds EXACTLY like Trump. Practice what you preach, hypocrite.

Again, not everything is a comparison to Trump.
Having lofty (and some unrealistic) goals does not mean someone can not be an effective member of congress.
I'll have that opinion on any candidate.

 

[cernjSHU]

I am not on board with everything she proposes just like every politician. But please don't make her out to be some kind of boogeyman trying to take your tax money like people did with Sanders. She has progressive views and would not be able to implement everything she wants but can she help build support across the country where we are more open to policies benefiting the working class? I believe she can

Saying you can tell she has no idea how to govern is so insulting.

Her job was to win a primary against an establishment candidate. She did so incredibly well.
Her next job is to win a house seat which she will likely do incredibly easily. Then her job is to govern.
Give her a chance.

Merge, she seems pleasant and nice. However, she wants a guarantee federal jobs for all. Come on. This is just as crazy. We can't sit and condemn Republicans for being silent with Trump and then support someone with just the exact opposite crazy ideas. This is just the grab for money on the other side of the political spectrum. In both cases, it is wrong.

 

[SPK145]

Again, not everything is a comparison to Trump.
Having lofty (and some unrealistic) goals does not mean someone can not be an effective member of congress.
I'll have that opinion on any candidate.

Hypocrite thy name is Merge.

 

[shupat08]

You mean secret military projects? Yes, somethings need to be kept hidden for security measures. While the military budget is probably bloated, there are more important things to spend on than free tuition for all.

Spending cannot be considered in a vacuum. There is a finite amount of dollars and many different projects competing for those dollars. So tuition for all is your priority spending? Quite frankly this is low on the priorities. So let's discuss Free Tuition for all. What does that cost per year? Bernie once estimated at $70 Billion a year. So now as you govern what is competing for that $70 billion. Well, there was an estimate that to fix infrastructure in this country would cost $200 billion a year for 10 years. That would be more important. Paying down the debt would be more important. Medicare for all would be a priority over free tuition. Estimates for a new electrical grid would be could be as much as $5 trillion. It is easy to talk about things in a vacuum. But that is not reality.

I would bet a lot of that "black book" spending is not "secret" for security sake.

Were the Iraq and Afghan Wars secret? No. But Bush put the majority of the spending for those wars on the "secret budget" and when Obama released that information and transferred the spending to our real budget, as he promised, Americans FLIPPED out. I'd bet a lot of $$ in our secret military budget isn't secret spending at all.

Plus FY 2015 our military spending was roughly 636 billion. Has Trump cut our military spending by over 100 billion?

 

[Merge]

Merge, she seems pleasant and nice. However, she wants a guarantee federal jobs for all. Come on. This is just as crazy. We can't sit and condemn Republicans for being silent with Trump and then support someone with just the exact oppositetiate crazy ideas. This is just the grab for money on the other side of the political spectrum. In both cases, it is wrong.

Her support of a jobs guarantee doesn't mean that we will pass a jobs guarantee.
It means that she will be open to looking at radical ideas to address problems. That she isn't going to offer a middle ground solution only to have the republicans make her negotiate to the right calling that the middle.

That is why Sanders, Booker and Gillibrand have come out in support of that type of program as well.

We will not have a jobs guarantee in the near future... but can we run on that, win elections and work towards better policies for the working class?

 

[Merge]

Hypocrite thy name is Merge.

something about a pot and kettle.

 

[cernjSHU]

Her support of a jobs guarantee doesn't mean that we will pass a jobs guarantee.
It means that she will be open to looking at radical ideas to address problems. That she isn't going to offer a middle ground solution only to have the republicans make her negotiate to the right calling that the middle.

That is why Sanders, Booker and Gillibrand have come out in support of that type of program as well.

We will not have a jobs guarantee in the near future... but can we run on that, win elections and work towards better policies for the working class?

You mean lie to the American public. I am just not in favor of telling outright lies. This is the result of Trumpism. Extremism on both sides of the political spectrum. Better policies for the working class are addressed most efficiently with labor unions.

 

[Merge]

You mean lie to the American public. I am just not in favor of telling outright lies. This is the result of Trumpism. Extremism on both sides of the political spectrum. Better policies for the working class are addressed most efficiently with labor unions.

I wish I had your optimism about American voters. That we would all go to the polls out of duty whether they are excited or not.
That they could look at one side being straight with them while not being influenced by the lies of the other side.

Unfortunately if democrats do not offer lofty goals. They will never have an opportunity to implement anything because they will lose elections.

 

[SPK145]

something about a pot and kettle.

LOL, you asked for patience with this new lady but never gave it to Trump.

I don't want the time of day from either.

 

[Merge]

LOL, you asked for patience with this new lady but never gave it to Trump.

I don't want the time of day from either.

In all seriousness. Why do you think a congresswoman from NY who would be representing constituents from 1 of 435 congressional districts is comparable to the president of the United States?

If she were running for President I would not currently support her. She's not.

 

[HALL85]

I think the Dems have a real problem right now in terms of messaging. Trump now owns the create jobs/tax relief and Border security space. Despite his antics, that continues to resonate with working Americans and even people that don’t support him are admitting that they are better off today than they were two years ago.

You can’t keep running on the “not Trump” platform. Without a vision, my sense is that you are going to see more and more of this vote out the incumbent… Change for the sake of change, on the Dem side especially in areas where millennial’s make up a large voting base.

And it’s not like Republicans have everything figured out either. Funny to see some candidates desperately now clinging on to Trumps message and others that really don’t know what to do.

Both parties are pretty fractured right now.

 

[Merge]

I think the Dems have a real problem right now in terms of messaging. Trump now owns the create jobs/tax relief and Border security space. Despite his antics, that continues to resonate with working Americans and even people that don’t support him are admitting that they are better off today than they were two years ago.

You can’t keep running on the “not Trump” platform. Without a vision, my sense is that you are going to see more and more of this vote out the incumbent… Change for the sake of change, on the Dem side especially in areas where millennial’s make up a large voting base.

Border security for sure, but family separation turned off some of the moderates and I don't think the tax bill or jobs are really winners for Trump at this point. The tax bill is probably the worst polling tax cut of all time. Democrats have a fairly straight forward argument for the mid-terms showing how much the tax cut cost and asking people to look at their paychecks. Tariffs increasing the price of consumer goods in the US will also be a winning argument for dems especially with Harley Davidson moving some production overseas.

I don't think they need a focused message since this isn't a general election. They just need the right message in each state where they are running. That will look a lot different in New York and Idaho.

The biggest wrench now is Kennedy retiring. Dems were hoping that there would be an enthusiasm gap. I don't think they want the balance of the supreme court on the ballot in November. That will significantly help republican enthusiasm.

 

[HALL85]

Border security for sure, but family separation turned off some of the moderates and I don't think the tax bill or jobs are really winners for Trump at this point. The tax bill is probably the worst polling tax cut of all time. Democrats have a fairly straight forward argument for the mid-terms showing how much the tax cut cost and asking people to look at their paychecks. Tariffs increasing the price of consumer goods in the US will also be a winning argument for dems especially with Harley Davidson moving some production overseas.

I don't think they need a focused message since this isn't a general election. They just need the right message in each state where they are running. That will look a lot different in New York and Idaho.

The biggest wrench now is Kennedy retiring. Dems were hoping that there would be an enthusiasm gap. I don't think they want the balance of the supreme court on the ballot in November. That will significantly help republican enthusiasm.

Merge I think you are seeing this through a partisan lens. My three kids have all seen an improvement in their paychecks (and none voted for Trump). People are not going to focus on the deficit that will rise unless someone can articulate a way to pay it down, which neither party will. Agree that national messaging is more important for Presidential and to a degree Senate elections but you have to admit there is a fracturing of the party.

 

[Merge]

Merge I think you are seeing this through a partisan lens. My three kids have all seen an improvement in their paychecks (and none voted for Trump). People are not going to focus on the deficit that will rise unless someone can articulate a way to pay it down, which neither party will. Agree that national messaging is more important for Presidential and to a degree Senate elections but you have to admit there is a fracturing of the party.

I am just looking at the data available. No one cares about the deficit - Not a winning argument to make. I am just saying republicans running on the tax cut will not be easy since it's really not popular.

Just look at the polling of the bill. Just 36% of people approve of the bill. We are now several months out from it. The PR spin is over and the results are based on what people are seeing in their paycheck. Bush and Clinton's tax increase was more favorable than Trump's cut. It is historically unpopular as far as tax cut polling goes.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/trump_republicans_tax_reform_law-6446.html


Real hourly wages in May 2018 are unchanged from May 2017, which means the impact of the tax law on wages has not yet "trickled down"

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/realer.pdf

If you look at 2017 wage thrown from Jan to June and compare it to wage growth in 2018 from Jan to June... you are not going to find a difference.
GDP growth declined in Q1 2018 and was just adjusted down below previous estimates, has been on a downward trend since Q2 2017.

I am not saying the tax bill is doomed to be a failure, I am just saying that the public wasn't sold on the idea that this will take years to fully understand the impact. They were sold on higher wages, and higher GDP growth. What they are getting is the same wages, and no significant GDP growth.

I think while the democrats absolutely do need something to actually run on, pointing out that the cuts are really not helping the majority of Americans will be an easy sell.

and yes, there is a fracturing within the party. I am not sure it matters though. Republicans were fractured with the creation of the tea party and that seemed to work out very well in the end.

 

[SPK145]

Is she really this stupid?

 

[HALL85]

Is she really this stupid?

She's not doing much to support the intelligence profile of the bartender community.......

 

[Merge]

Not a good look on that one.
Seemed like she got a talking point mixed up.

That said, I don't recall the winner of a primary in a heavily partisan district getting this much attention across the country pretty much ever - so she is clearly doing something right.
Plenty of time to get polished. Maybe she took a page from the Trump playbook where he talked about unemployment really being above 40% - Didn't seem to hurt him much.

 

[HALL85]

Not a good look on that one.
Seemed like she got a talking point mixed up.

That said, I don't recall the winner of a primary in a heavily partisan district getting this much attention across the country pretty much ever - so she is clearly doing something right.
Plenty of time to get polished. Maybe she took a page from the Trump playbook where he talked about unemployment really being above 40% - Didn't seem to hurt him much.

Doesn't it bother you in the least that the line keeps moving in the wrong direction where we enable stupid or lying politicians because they are "clearly doing something right". Justifying her behavior because Trump does it? Let's just hope the electorate smartens up.

 

[Merge]

Doesn't it bother you in the least that the line keeps moving in the wrong direction where we enable stupid or lying politicians because they are "clearly doing something right". Justifying her behavior because Trump does it? Let's just hope the electorate smartens up.

If she surged in popularity because she was lying, it would bother me... but she isn't popular because she is running on a platform of lies.
She has a degree in economics, so I am giving her the benefit of the doubt for now.

My comment about Trump was in jest - She is not running for president. She is running for a district no one cared about until people starting seeing a potential political threat because of her ability to connect with voters.

The spotlight is on and she has made a few mistakes. She needs to correct that but she has time.

 

[cernjSHU]

She is ill equipped to be in Congress. Those who voted for her are as bad as those who vote for Trump. This change for change sake is ruining our government. I don’t want it from the Dems and I don’t want it from the Republicans.

 

[HALL85]

She is ill equipped to be in Congress. Those who voted for her are as bad as those who vote for Trump. This change for change sake is ruining our government. I don’t want it from the Dems and I don’t want it from the Republicans.

Have to agree with you there. If our politicians did their job competently, we would have candidates like them. I know it won't solve everything, but campaign financing reform is desperately needed.

 

[Merge]

She is ill equipped to be in Congress..

Because she made a mistake?

Her duty as a member of congress would be to represent the people of her district and to weigh their interests in her discussion making whether to support bills.
Why is she ill equipped to do that?

Those who voted for her are as bad as those who vote for Trump.

There is a gigantic difference between congress and the presidency. No one is picking her to run the country.
Picking her to represent 1 congressional district is much different.