Joe Crowley goes DOWN!

[shupat08]

If the past 20-30 years are at all a case study. We can surmise this.

With the advent of 24 hour "news", gerrymandering and extended elections (1-2+ years for House, Senate and President). The Democrats and Republicans have turned the primary system into a "who is more extreme" competition.

IMHO, the 2 party structure (more parties so that governors, presidents, speakers, etc that to build true coalitions), primary structure (jungle?), news media (take it back to nightly and evening news) and campaign finance system (no more citizen's united, no more dark money, public financed campaigns that can only go on for 4-6 months before Election Day - like Ireland) ALL need to change.

But that won't happen. So here we are fiddling while Rome burns.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Cern and I agree on little, point-for-point, regarding politics. But I will never accuse him of lacking common sense, or being in the category of the original poster.

 

[Stevie_H]

Those who voted for her are as bad as those who vote for Trump.

Nope. Not even close. There are common threads of stupidity involved with both groups of voters, however Trump is in a category all by himself and I pray we never see the likes of anyone like him ever again....no matter which lousy party he/she represents. While there is some merit to Merge's point, remove the offices they ran/are running for from the conversation for a moment. Save any comparison's to Hillary, Obama, any previous President and/or candidate for the office. Trump is very different. He's not close to anything we've ever seen before and not in a good way. To truly nonpartisan, sane, rational people, which I'd like to consider myself one, this is very clear. Stop all comparisons.

 

[shu09]

Save any comparison's to Hillary, Obama, any previous President and/or candidate for the office. Trump is very different. He's not close to anything we've ever seen before

But that's exactly why he won. People were sick of the same old nonsense and wanted to try something different.

 

[Stevie_H]

But that's exactly why he won. People were sick of the same old nonsense and wanted to try something different.

That's one of several reasons why he won. While I understand and agree with the sentiment, look at the candidate. Different in a worse way! An obvious and highly predictable worse way. That's the point.

 

[shu09]

That's one of several reasons why he won. While I understand and agree with the sentiment, look at the candidate. Different in a worse way! An obvious and highly predictable worse way. That's the point.

That's your opinion. I didn't vote for him, undecided if I will in 2020 (if he runs, which is no sure thing). I do think he's doing a decent job overall. Agree with him on some stuff, not on others.

I don't think he's a great person or a role model, and I admit I separate that when evaluating his job performance.

 

[Merge]

The idea that any politician who brings a populist message and is an effective communicator on social media who wants change should be compared to Trump is pretty silly.

If she ever runs for President and declines to release her tax returns, makes fun of a war veteran for being captured, mocks a disabled reporter, attacks a gold star family, talked about grabbing men by their dicks, encourages violence at her rallies.... by all means - Proceed with the comparisons.

Until then, I will enjoy how much attention she is getting from conservatives. I wonder if any congressional representative has ever received this much attention - Let alone someone who has not even been elected yet. I think they're scared.

 

[Stevie_H]

That's your opinion. I didn't vote for him, undecided if I will in 2020 (if he runs, which is no sure thing). I do think he's doing a decent job overall. Agree with him on some stuff, not on others.

I don't think he's a great person or a role model, and I admit I separate that when evaluating his job performance.

Not great... That's soft-pedaling it just a tad, no? He's an authentically disgraceful person. A swindler, a buffoon, a narcissist, and one of the most prolific liars the world has seen in my lifetime. If my own flesh and blood, running on a platform that perfectly aligns with my political views, were a quarter of the human turd Trump is, I wouldn't give them my vote.

As for his grading his job performance, perhaps unbelievably considering what I just wrote, I can make the separation between how I feel about the person versus the job he is doing. I have little trouble removing emotion from decision making and evaluation. I'm far more likely to have trouble including it where needed. As far as Presidential decorum goes, he earns an F almost daily. That's part of the job too. As for grading the rest of his performance, which is vast and layered, I'll be generic and simplistic. He's below average.

 

[Pirate64]

This woman from Queens has made a helluva splash but I don’t get all the applause for socialism. It’s never worked anyplace and it does not reward hard work,
And eventually you run out of other people’s money.
If we ever become a socialist country , private institutions like Seton Hall won’t exist.

 

[Merge]

This woman from Queens has made a helluva splash but I don’t get all the applause for socialism. It’s never worked anyplace and it does not reward hard work,
And eventually you run out of other people’s money.
If we ever become a socialist country , private institutions like Seton Hall won’t exist.

She is not a socialist.

 

[shu09]

Not great... That's soft-pedaling it just a tad, no? He's an authentically disgraceful person. A swindler, a buffoon, a narcissist, and one of the most prolific liars the world has seen in my lifetime. If my own flesh and blood, running on a platform that perfectly aligns with my political views, were a quarter of the human turd Trump is, I wouldn't give them my vote.

As for his grading his job performance, perhaps unbelievably considering what I just wrote, I can make the separation between how I feel about the person versus the job he is doing. I have little trouble removing emotion from decision making and evaluation. I'm far more likely to have trouble including it where needed. As far as Presidential decorum goes, he earns an F almost daily. That's part of the job too. As for grading the rest of his performance, which is vast and layered, I'll be generic and simplistic. He's below average.

Fair enough. I respect that and actually agree with most of it.

Keeping it simplistic, I'm curious how you would rate the presidents of the past 25 years. I'd say Clinton and Obama were slightly above average, Bush well below average. Trump about average.

 

[SPK145]

She is not a socialist.

Seems much more communist than socialist.

 

[Merge]

Seems much more communist than socialist.

 

[Stevie_H]

Fair enough. I respect that and actually agree with most of it.

Keeping it simplistic, I'm curious how you would rate the presidents of the past 25 years. I'd say Clinton and Obama were slightly above average, Bush well below average. Trump about average.

It's going to have to be simplistic (and probably worthless) as that's a really difficult task. I've seen some of the polls/rankings/surveys on the subject done by the historians and scholarly types over the years. While those are probably imperfect, they're going to do a better job than I can. That said, I'd rate Clinton and Obama similarly. GWB slightly below average. Going back a littler further GHWB average. Reagan above average. Trump, while it is early, is trending well below average. I'll to continue to hope and root for the best, while expecting something else.

 

[knowknow456]

I have three objections to how the President conducts his business

1. He believes in isolationism. This was a failed strategy 80 years ago and will fail again now. The world is too interconnected to go it alone.
2. He believes in undermining a free and independent press. Calling news you do not like "fake" is not something that should be tolerated.
3. He is needlessly provocative. His disrespect of people and institutions plays well to his fanbase, but we are not a reality show.

 

[shu09]

I have three objections to how the President conducts his business

1. He believes in isolationism. This was a failed strategy 80 years ago and will fail again now. The world is too interconnected to go it alone.
2. He believes in undermining a free and independent press. Calling news you do not like "fake" is not something that should be tolerated.
3. He is needlessly provocative. His disrespect of people and institutions plays well to his fanbase, but we are not a reality show.

#1 and #2 are not true. #3 is spot on.

He believes in "America first," but not isolationism. Two different concepts. An isolationist would not be negotiating trade deals with the EU, the UK, China and other countries. An isolationist would be against trade with other nations completely.

He does not believe in undermining the press. Is he too sensitive to negative stories? Yes. Again, two different things.

 

[Merge]

He believes in "America first," but not isolationism. Two different concepts. An isolationist would not be negotiating trade deals with the EU, the UK, China and other countries. An isolationist would be against trade with other nations completely..

Maybe not 100% isolationist, but America First sure looks a lot like we are heading in that direction where we impose tariffs that will make it more expensive to import goods and needlessly going after our allies.

He does not believe in undermining the press. Is he too sensitive to negative stories? Yes. Again, two different things.

“And just remember, what you’re seeing and what you’re reading is not what’s happening.”

He has always tried to undermine the press. Even before he was in office talking about unemployment figures at 40% which would have nothing to do with Trump, he was calling the reporting at the time fake. He wants people to doubt what is in the press. Always has.

 

[HALL85]

#1 and #2 are not true. #3 is spot on.

He believes in "America first," but not isolationism. Two different concepts. An isolationist would not be negotiating trade deals with the EU, the UK, China and other countries. An isolationist would be against trade with other nations completely.

He does not believe in undermining the press. Is he too sensitive to negative stories? Yes. Again, two different things.

Agree. For someone who gets painted as an “isolationist”, he is setting records meeting with other world leaders...

#2 is a silly talking point. He’s not undermining a free press...the press needs to be accountable and they have not.

Spot on for #3, although I think this is a major underpinning of his strategy. He is the most divisive President by far. He also has the strongest base of any President and the loudest detractors. His gamble is that there are enough people in the middle that will care more about supporting their family (tax breaks and low unemployment) and safety (border security and terrorism).

 

[shu09]

His gamble is that there are enough people in the middle that will care more about supporting their family (tax breaks and low unemployment) and safety (border security and terrorism).

As someone in the middle, who doesn't have strong feelings either way for him, he does walk a fine line. There are days where I love what he did and days where I sit there and shake my head.

 

[Merge]

he is setting records meeting with other world leaders..

lol - Obama actually met with more but that was dubbed the "apology tour"

 

[HALL85]

lol - Obama actually met with more but that was dubbed the "apology tour"

Are you counting late night hosts in that number?

The question was about Trump being an isolationist, which based on his behavior and meetings, couldn’t be further from the truth.

 

[SPK145]

Maybe not 100% isolationist, but America First sure looks a lot like we are heading in that direction where we impose tariffs that will make it more expensive to import goods and needlessly going after our allies.

Are they really allies when they heavily subsidize certain industries that make it close to impossible for the U.S. to compete? Another area where the U.S. is also very guilty as well.

How about when Trump suggested no tariffs, no subsidies, and no trade barriers and our supposed allies blew a gasket? (Not that I really believe Trump was/is sincere with that request.)

 

[knowknow456]

How about when Trump suggested no tariffs, no subsidies, and no trade barriers and our supposed allies blew a gasket? (Not that I really believe Trump was/is sincere with that request.)

This is an example of the reality show Presidency. By constantly switching positions and reversing himself for higher TV ratings, people are less and less likely to believe he is ever telling the truth. This is a problem for the American people.

 

[Stevie_H]

#2 is a silly talking point. He’s not undermining a free press...the press needs to be accountable and they have not.

No it is not a silly talking point. He is literally undermining the free press on an almost daily basis. He's constantly making his moronic fake news claims in response to verified facts. That is not even debatable.

 

[HALL85]

No it is not a silly talking point. He is literally undermining the free press on an almost daily basis. He's constantly making his moronic fake news claims in response to verified facts. That is not even debatable.

Disagree strongly. The MSM news media has devolved with the advance of the internet. Speed and opinion in reporting has had a significant impact on the quality and objectivity. Trump just used the “fake news” moniker for his benefit. How many times have we seen the MSM report wrong...Brian Williams, Brian Ross??

 

[Merge]

Are they really allies when they heavily subsidize certain industries that make it close to impossible for the U.S. to compete? Another area where the U.S. is also very guilty as well.

How about when Trump suggested no tariffs, no subsidies, and no trade barriers and our supposed allies blew a gasket? (Not that I really believe Trump was/is sincere with that request.)

Just like anything else when dealing with allies and adversaries - There is a balance and nuance within policy.
You can certainly argue that Trump's trade policies in the long term... I think there is a valid argument to be made, but I tend to disagree with those arguments.

 

[Merge]

Disagree strongly. The MSM news media has devolved with the advance of the internet. Speed and opinion in reporting has had a significant impact on the quality and objectivity. Trump just used the “fake news” moniker for his benefit. How many times have we seen the MSM report wrong...Brian Williams, Brian Ross??

"The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!"

I will never understand how any of you here can be ok with the president of the United States saying something like that.
That quote will be in history books. That is straight propaganda from the President.

We can all agree that the quality of news has declined due to the speed in which we demand our news.
That does not excuse the presidents behavior.

 

[SPK145]

"The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!"

I will never understand how any of you here can be ok with the president of the United States saying something like that.
That quote will be in history books. That is straight propaganda from the President.

We can all agree that the quality of news has declined due to the speed in which we demand our news.
That does not excuse the presidents behavior.

Agreed.

The media sucks these days, incredibly biased, etc. but it's not the enemy of the people.

 

[knowknow456]

Agreed.

The media sucks these days, incredibly biased, etc. but it's not the enemy of the people.

Thank you, I appreciate your support. I am astounded at the number of people who think the media is in fact the enemy. It is dangerous to think that way and the fact the President consistently stokes that line of thought is not a good thing.

 

[shu09]

His comments were that the FAKE media is the enemy of the people, not the media as a whole.

What's fake and what isn't? Well, that's for the people to decide.

 

[shupat08]

His comments were that the FAKE media is the enemy of the people, not the media as a whole.

What's fake and what isn't? Well, that's for the people to decide.

So reality doesn't exist?

The WH and Kremlin edited their official videos and transcripts to remove when question and Putin's answer when Putin said he wanted trump to win the election.

So now we have 2 different videos one from THE NEWS showing that question and answer. And the WH video without it.

So now it's up to people to decide which is real and which is fake?

I bet about 40 percent of the country will say CNNs tape is fake. And the WH tape is real.

Well guess what that is actually not correct.

We are delving into 1984 and many in here are playing right along.

 

[shu09]

Lol. Nice job of cherry picking there. Every WH edits videos. Every single one.

 

[shupat08]

Lol. Nice job of cherry picking there. Every WH edits videos. Every single one.

LOL. Nice job deflecting here. They also edited the transcript btw.

So you don't think its noteworthy that the Kremlin and WH both removed an entire question and answer. The same question and answer from both their official transcripts and videos?

And then later that day trump came out and said he's worried about Russia helping the democrats.

This was after Putin was taped and recorded as saying he wanted trump to win in 2016.

Do you really not see the idea here? He is changing reality. He is creating a Trump based reality that millions of people are blindly following and millions more are saying is NBD.

 

[HALL85]

The media is not the enemy, but they need to be held accountable as much as anyone else. They should be the ones wearing the striped shirts and whistles...when they start wearing the jerseys of one team or the other, that's a big problem.

 

[Merge]

His comments were that the FAKE media is the enemy of the people, not the media as a whole.

What's fake and what isn't? Well, that's for the people to decide.

He literally provided examples of the "fake news media" being The New York Times, NBC, ABC, CBS and CNN.
He did not say the fake stores provided by them.. he is saying that those media sources are fake.

You can't just dismiss that.
That behavior from the president is unacceptable. It is something we would expect of a dictator.

 

[Merge]

The media is not the enemy, but they need to be held accountable as much as anyone else. They should be the ones wearing the striped shirts and whistles...when they start wearing the jerseys of one team or the other, that's a big problem.

Sure. Hold them accountable... but don't make excuses for the president when he is acting like a dictator.

 

[shupat08]

He literally provided examples of the "fake news media" being The New York Times, NBC, ABC, CBS and CNN.
He did not say the fake stores provided by them.. he is saying that those media sources are fake.

You can't just dismiss that.
That behavior from the president is unacceptable. It is something we would expect of a dictator.

This is why History is such an important topic. Too bad its not taken more seriously in school.

"You're entitled to you own opinions. But not your own facts."

Did you know after Lenin died that Stalin removed Trotsky from photos?

Edit photos to remove people you don't want. Edit videos to remove things you don't want.

 

[shupat08]

@Merge I wonder how most people on this board would react if this same situation was playing out in 2016-2018 with HRC as president?

Think it'd be the same? I bet not.

 

[HALL85]

Sure. Hold them accountable... but don't make excuses for the president when he is acting like a dictator.

When did I ever say I supported him doing it?

 

[Stevie_H]

Disagree strongly. The MSM news media has devolved with the advance of the internet. Speed and opinion in reporting has had a significant impact on the quality and objectivity. Trump just used the “fake news” moniker for his benefit. How many times have we seen the MSM report wrong...Brian Williams, Brian Ross??

Disagree with what? I just argued that oranges are in fact the color orange and we can't debate that. You're talking about the decline in flavor. That has nothing to do with the color and in no way excuses someone from saying they aren't orange.

As for the MSM... First, it's a really broad term. Yes, there are a number of very legitimate criticisms to be made under this broad MSM banner. Yes, mistakes are made. Yes, there are consequences for those mistakes. No, that doesn't condone Trump's lying. Trump isn't making the argument that the MSM has flaws. He is calling fact fake news. It is incredibly irresponsible and has potentially damaging ramifications.