OT: Trayvon Martin

[Bobbie Solo]

Originally posted by HALL85:

Bobbie, in all seriousness, I have tremendous empathy for victims of predjudice but that's not the point.

I don't know what happened that night nor does anyone as the trial indicated, so I do take issue with anyone that talks in absolutes as to what Zimmerman's and Martins motivation's and actions were. I also have found it distasteful that the media (and President) have played fast and loose with some of the facts especially making a gratuitous comment about his skin color when it's convenient just to make this a point about profiling (which once again, we don't know if that was or wasn't the case).

Just to be fair, he's far from the only politician that pulls this BS, but it's BS none-the-less.

well stated as usual, even if I don't agree mostly. I don't doubt your feelings, but when you harp on the media and what they ginned this up to be, but in the same breath attack them, as opposed to opining about the case itself and how a young kid is dead for no good reason bc of Zimmerman, there's doesn't seem to be any empathy or compassion there.

The media absolutely made this thing out to be an epic case with the fate of the country in the balance when they of course shouldn't. But are you really surprised? They follow ratings exclusively these days, disgustingly. This is an easy case to explain and cover, and even easier to form an opinion on.

I am no fan of Obama, but coming from the progressive side. I did not vote for him, am a fan of few things he's done, and think he's one of the weakest centrist compromisers I have ever heard of. However, i do think he is sincere occasionally, and on this one I believed it. In general cultural perception, he is a black man. He looks black, and that's all people care about. He grew up in a time where i have no doubt he dealt with the prejudice he discussed. And in the same breath, Zimmerman is a white guy from a general cultural perception. Thats great that his mom is Peruvian, but he looks and carries himself like a typical white guy. Those that try to spin it otherwise are being disengenuous or don't participate with real American society.

Don't get me wrong, I know Obama is playing politics at the same time. He's fought for very little for his black base in the face of Republican opposition. He barely even tries. So that speech helps energize him with them in the face of that disappointment many of them feel. He's also potentially set to bring the NYPD commissioner Kelly in as the head of Homeland Security. Profiling is a cornerstone of his police force here. So he sees this speech as a way to deflect that i'd imagine. I still think he meant what he said, but he's not blind to the politics of it.

 

[shu09]

George Zimmerman "looks...like a typical white guy?" Are you kidding? I am white and he looks absolutely nothing like me. He is hispanic/latino, whatever you want to call it.

This post was edited on 7/29 11:37 AM by shu09

 

[Section112]

What is sad is that there really is a lesson that could have come from this case. The lesson is sometimes its OK to walk away. If Zimmerman walked away and let the police handle it things would have been OK. If Travon found a way to not get into a tussle he may still be alive. Noone knows all the facts but if one of them acts differently maybe we never hear about either one of them.

A few weeks ago kids from my former hometown (Cedar Grove) got into a shouting match at a red light with kids from Little Falls (kids from Little Falls apparently mistook them for someone else and started yelling at them). If the kids from Cedar Grove walk away, one kid is still alive today. Instead they followed the other car to a house in Little Falls and a kid goes into his friends house, comes out with a kitchen knife and stabs the Cedar Grove kid as he is trying to get into his car. 18 yrs old and dead. Now I heard that there were some kids from a few races there. No talk of race or whatever with this case as it should be. Just a bunch of kids doing something stupid and now someone is dead.

If the lesson was to walk away and not proliferate violence from the big court case in Florida, well maybe just maybe some folks walk away from situations like this and move on with their life instead of getting hurt or killed. IMO they missed a big opportunity to teach folks of all races that sometimes you need to walk away, avoid certain situations and your odds will be higher that you don't get hurt.

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by Bobbie Solo:

Originally posted by HALL85:

Bobbie, in all seriousness, I have tremendous empathy for victims of predjudice but that's not the point.

I don't know what happened that night nor does anyone as the trial indicated, so I do take issue with anyone that talks in absolutes as to what Zimmerman's and Martins motivation's and actions were. I also have found it distasteful that the media (and President) have played fast and loose with some of the facts especially making a gratuitous comment about his skin color when it's convenient just to make this a point about profiling (which once again, we don't know if that was or wasn't the case).

Just to be fair, he's far from the only politician that pulls this BS, but it's BS none-the-less.

well stated as usual, even if I don't agree mostly. I don't doubt your feelings, but when you harp on the media and what they ginned this up to be, but in the same breath attack them, as opposed to opining about the case itself and how a young kid is dead for no good reason bc of Zimmerman, there's doesn't seem to be any empathy or compassion there.

The media absolutely made this thing out to be an epic case with the fate of the country in the balance when they of course shouldn't. But are you really surprised? They follow ratings exclusively these days, disgustingly. This is an easy case to explain and cover, and even easier to form an opinion on.

I am no fan of Obama, but coming from the progressive side. I did not vote for him, am a fan of few things he's done, and think he's one of the weakest centrist compromisers I have ever heard of. However, i do think he is sincere occasionally, and on this one I believed it. In general cultural perception, he is a black man. He looks black, and that's all people care about. He grew up in a time where i have no doubt he dealt with the prejudice he discussed. And in the same breath, Zimmerman is a white guy from a general cultural perception. Thats great that his mom is Peruvian, but he looks and carries himself like a typical white guy. Those that try to spin it otherwise are being disengenuous or don't participate with real American society.

Don't get me wrong, I know Obama is playing politics at the same time. He's fought for very little for his black base in the face of Republican opposition. He barely even tries. So that speech helps energize him with them in the face of that disappointment many of them feel. He's also potentially set to bring the NYPD commissioner Kelly in as the head of Homeland Security. Profiling is a cornerstone of his police force here. So he sees this speech as a way to deflect that i'd imagine. I still think he meant what he said, but he's not blind to the politics of it.

If I didn't sound as I had empathy or compassion, my apologies. I think I stated in an earlier thread that there is nothing worse than a parent losing a child, especially as a result of a violent crime. This was a horrible tragedy in that respect and I feel for Martin's family.

My issue with the media was that they tried to make this about race, when the real story is about neighborhood watches, vigilanteism, gun control and gun laws. Without any proof, the media and the President tried to make this about race. I don't know if the President was sincere or not; I saw his comments as grandstanding and your theories as to the political motives make sense. The media is reprehensible for their actions and you're right, it's par for the course and what we've grown to expect. I have a problem with accepting incompetence.

Bobbie, I do take exception to your comments that Zimmerman "carries himself like a typical white guy". That strikes me as racist, but more importantly, what is troubling about peoples perceptions in general. I could make a similar case that Obama "carries himself like a typical white guy" too, except when he's in front of a black audience. Also if you just put a picture of Zimmerman in front of anyone that doesn't know who he is with no name, just a head shot, and asked people if he were hispanic or white, you would probably get mixed responses.

If only the media and politicians could have a constructive dialogue like this.........appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

i'm not so much giving my own view when i refer to how Obama & Zimmerman present themselves. Im giving what i think to be the majorityview of the public on a first impression. Certainly, those against Zimmerman in this case felt like he got the treatment he did from the cops bc they thought he was a white guy, and the "suspect" was black. Also, those against Zimmernan feel like the only reason the confrontation happened at all was bc Zimmerman saw Trayvon as suspicious b/c he was a black kid with a hood up, which fed into his own biases or stereotypes. It would have been one thing if he was right & Trayvon was doing something criminal or suspicious, but i think the one thing everyone rational can agree on is that Trayvon did not deserve to be looked at suspiciously at that point. And this is where Zimmerman loses folks, b/c even if Trayvon escalated the fight very high (which I dont believe), well...Zimmerman was the one to start it, for no good reason.

 

[HALL85]

Bobbie, the opinions you speak of are of people that don't even know Zimmerman. How do you know he had those biases? His prom date was black. He gave volunteer time to minority children's groups. I don't know if he was suspicious of Martin because of color or not, nor does anyone. That's the problem with media reports...it's all based on what we think are preconceived bias because it makes for a neat story. Not one fact to support that.

How do you know Martin wasn't doing anything suspicious? Maybe he was, which could be why Zimmerman called it in. If Zimmerman truly thought he was going to jump Martin and put himself in a position to pull his weapon, why would he call the police before he did it? Maybe he asked Martin to stop and wait for the police to get there and Martin went after him. Once again, no facts to support either view which is the problem in this case. There are no witnesses other than Zimmerman.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

i dont think Zimmerman had any intent to harm Trayvon before their fight started. I know Martin wasnt doing anything suspicious based on what Zimmernan said on the 911 call. He said he was walking slow. If he was doing something legit suspsicious, dont u think he would have mentioned that also?

If you can't see why a young black kid who hasnt done anything wrong would not react well to the scenario u suggest where Zimmerman maybe tells him to stay there till a cop arrives, well...haha. The kid already think the guy is being a creep based on HIS phone call to his friend. So if they then have that convo, its not going to realistically just end nicely where Trayvon waits. And what if Zimmerman put his hands on Trayvon at that point? Like you said, we don't know. But i side with the scenarios that relfect poorly on Zimmerman at that point, where you are the opposite. And to my orig. point, perhaps if whites people could see where black people are coming from in terms of the profiling issue even if they dont go through it themselves, then there would be alot less division on this case.

 

[donnie_baseball]

It would have been one thing if he was right & Trayvon was doing something criminal or suspicious, but i think the one thing everyone rational can agree on is that Trayvon did not deserve to be looked at suspiciously at that point. And this is where Zimmerman loses folks, b/c even if Trayvon escalated the fight very high (which I dont believe), well...Zimmerman was the one to start it, for no good reason.

Anyone stranger walking through that neighborhood, which had been experiencing a rash of burglaries at that particular time (possibly perpetrated by young black men), would be looked upon suspiciously, whether they "deserved" it, or not. All witness accounts and physical evidence points to Martin on top of Zimmerman, going MMA on him; so you can believe what you want, but the facts, as best they could be reconstructed, suggests otherwise.

You don't have to go back far in history to cull feelings of sympathy for what the blacks in this country have been through. However, I can't apologize for the actions of the racists 50 years ago, or today, nor will I be a self-loathing white male, telling others that they don't know the black man's burden (when you don't either). The best I can do is to treat others, black and otherwise, with respect, and speak respectfully when not in their presence. This does rub off, and, I believe, makes a difference to rational people.

 

[HALL85]

Bobbie, I'm not siding with either Martin or Zimmerman, unlike what you're doing. I've said all along, we don't know. Either position is plausible. I was just trying to counter, but reality is no one knows exactly what happened, and to imply that it was racially motivated is just another opinion with no factual basis.