i know having a baby at 16 might end up working out fine for a few people. but i cant see a scenario where you review the options and having a baby at 16 is the best choice.
Roe v Wade
- Thread starter Pirata
- Start date
Yes, that is correct.
A child in the womb does not have rights.
Yes, but it’s not arbitrary. It’s a woman’s body.
Nope. Life begins at conception. No dispute there from my view. I just don’t believe we should force women to carry a child if they do not want to act as a host.
I like Dave Chapelle’s line. It’s totally up to the woman on choice, but whatever choice she makes she bears the cost or responsibility…….
If you say so.
I approach the issue from a woman’s point of view. You approach it from your own. That’s why we view it differently. I’m empathetic towards women who would be faced with the decision and pragmatic about the rules we would enforce.
On one hand you say that life begins at conception (I agree). Yet you have no empathy for that life until it emerges from the womb. That approach, it seems, gives you the license to rationalize the ending of that life no matter how cruel and inhuman the methods used to end that life. You never address that. Life in the womb needs protections.... and it does have rights, despite your assertion.
Again, I don’t think we should force women to carry a child to term. The child does not have rights under the constitution. If they did, all abortion would be illegal.
Just like making guns illegal would not stop gun violence, making abortion illegal will not stop women wanting abortion and they will find other ways to do it in their own. Instead, focus your efforts on reducing why women have abortions in the first place.
Support free child care, free health care, higher tax credits for each child, comprehensive sex education in all public schools, free contraception… etc… do all of that and you will have a greater impact on reducing abortion than any law that’s passed.
You lost me here. Nothing is, nor should be, free. Personal responsibility.
It's OK to take human life because you can't get free things? Beyond ridiculous. Is that why most have abortions?
Yeah, that’s usually where I lose the “pro-life” crowd.
Not because they can’t get free things, but yes, the cost to keep the child is the largest factor.
I don’t disagree with you that the government shouldn’t pay for these things, but i don’t understand how someone can have an anti-abortion view as their #1 political issue and then care at all about the cost when it would reduce abortions significantly.
If you want to reduce abortions, reduce the reasons people have them… just like guns, right conservatives? If you want to reduce gun violence, treat the issues that cause it?
Lol. No. We don’t not offer free healthcare for all. We do not offer free childcare for all. We do not have expanded tax credits, we do not have comprehensive sex Ed in every school. We do not offer free contraception to all…
When polled about abortion. Women talk about the costs involved with having a child. Your offering a solution (adoption) which does not address their problem…
Remember, I’m not “pro-life”, I’m anti-abortion.
I adhere to personal responsibility, not government freebies, I’m not a marxist.
Should sex be free to reduce the number of rapes?
Not available to all but it is available to many. Isn’t that what organizations like PP offer?
Fairly certain sex is free.
I respect the anti abortion view, but it’s just odd when there is something that would help but the cost is too high?
I appreciate your a bit of a different breed with your libertarian views though.
You realize when you say you’re approaching it from a woman’s point of view that women do not have just 1 view on this. Go outside Kavanaughs house and you’ll find one view and go to your local Christian church you’ll find plenty of women with differing views. You view it from the perspective of a woman of pro choice. Nothing wrong with doing that. But to be fair I think you should also look at it from the perspective of a woman of pro life. Weigh the 2 after that. But the self righteous BS of I look at it from a woman’s perspective is baloney because there is no one perspective for women.
They offer education, contraception and work with healthcare providers to assist in abortion costs.
A child in the womb has rights.... witness the state laws that charge a murderer with two homicides if the mother is carrying a child.... not to mention the right to life.
You say you believe that life begins at conception yet you are just fine and dandy for the mother and her doctor to snuff out that life at will. You also say you believe in individual responsibilty and don't want the government to pay..... yet you are calling for free contraception, free health care, etc. Not sure even you are sure what it is you stand for.....
A fetus does not have rights under the constitution. You may want them to, but they do not.
I’m not calling for anything. Just pointing out the contradiction with wanting less abortion but not wanting to support social programs that would actually help.
I’m aware of the services they provide.
They just don’t offer the stuff I was talking about which would help reduce demand for abortion…
But they do..... under state laws, life is protected in some fashion when they put restrictions on abortions or outright ban it...... so they do have rights there. If a state bans abortion, they are protecting the rights of the unborn. If a state puts limits on abortions they are at least preventing abortions and by doing so protect the rights of the unborn. What about those rights? Your absolutes are NOT absolute. And what about the fact that if a pregnant woman is killed it is considered a double homicide in at least some states. Just because the Constitution does not specifically protect the unborn (it holds that abortion should be regulated by the states) .... does not mean that the unborn do not have rights..... as much as you want to believe otherwise. The burden is now on the states. Roe vCWade gave the false impression that the unborn are not protected by the law.
You imply that pro lifers or anti abortion folks and their organizations don't support programs that support pregnant women or women in general. Pro life programs give the mother other choices than Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is more likely to lie to a pregnant teen that the fetus is not a living thing and they don't provide sonograms or won't suggest that adoption is an option. PP reduces choices. I thought you were all about choices. They don't include all choices. What post abortion help do they give mothers?? that's a question.. do they offer counseling post abortion? My point is that your approach has its share of contradictions.
Again, talking about the rights we all have as us citizens provided by the constitution.
Yes certain states provide restrictions, but they are not extending rights to the unborn other than the right to be born. They aren’t restricted from things that could harm the fetus like a law against certain medicines or even foods which could harm the fetus. That was my point.
No. Not what I said. I said pro lifers don’t support social programs that would help mothers and families provide for a child. Rather than focus on the fact that abortikns occur, you should instead start with asking why
Assume we had a basic income of 20k per year per child. To be clear, I’m not pushing for that policy… but the number of abortions per year would plummet.
You have never set foot in a planned parenthood facility and have no idea what you are talking about related to the services they do and do not provide.
They do perform ultrasounds. They do offer guidance on options…
also, right from their website.
“
Who can I talk to about adoption?
Talking with your partner, someone in your family, a friend, a religious advisor, or a counselor can be helpful when you’re making a choice about an unplanned pregnancy. Lots of people lean on others to help them with their decision. It’s good to choose people who you know are supportive of you and won’t be judgmental.An adoption agency can give you information and help you think through your decision. Many family planning clinics (including your local Planned Parenthood health center) have specially trained staff that can give you accurate information about all your options and other resources. The staff at your local Planned Parenthood can also refer you to adoption agencies or other resources in your area.
No one should pressure you into making any decision about your pregnancy, no matter what. At the end of the day, only you know what’s right for you.”
"but they are not extending rights to the unborn other than the right to be born."
..... and THAT was my point. they are given the right to life.
Thanks for the update on the services provided by PP. I was not aware of some of this. I know that all PP centers don't provide all the services mentioned and I do know that young women have not always been given all the information about an abortion and its impact. I am guessing here that the services are available only if the woman requests them. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during an initial consultation. I wonder how proactive PP is in making sure that a woman goes into an abortion armed with all the scientific facts that are available. If we are going to have legal abortions, women should be fully educated about all of the potential impacts of the abortion and the choices that are available. Do they offer post abortion counseling? Many women have regrets about their choice. Are women made aware of that possibility?
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Some probably do. Would depend on the facility if they have counselors or not. They are a service provider. Similar to if you give up a child to adoption, the adoption center would refer you to a counselor for after to deal with the mental health aspects of giving up a child. I can only speak from personal experience when I went to PP in Montclair with a girlfriend many years ago for birth control. I recognize not everyone may have had the same experience but they were pretty open about abortions being difficult mentally and physically and did not want my gf to get pregnant.
On this topic, I just don't think the pro-life crowd gives enough thought as to why people have abortions. If all abortion were illegal tomorrow, do any of the reasons why a woman would want one change? Just think we should focus more on the why.
Well, if you are going by what Thomas said in his concurring opinion, then the federal government does not have the authority to promulgate laws on those issues. But each individual state could do so. Given that there are no laws on the book that I am aware of which would indicate that contraception is illegal, it would seem pointless to do so, but they certainly could of they wanted to.
Yeah, you know..... that "pro-life crowd"..... nothing but beer swilling, uneducated, bible thumping neanderthals who wouldn't know a deep thought from a deep fried taco.
You underestimate and maybe put all pro-life people into the same basket. I know.... I have to fight the temptation to do the same with that "pro-choice crowd". We need to listen to each other more and try to see the other side a bit. And not knowing each others experiences we shouldn't asume. Me, I just can't get past that "life" thing. Snuffing one out should be a very serious consideration.
And the debate continues......
I'm curious as to what the technical difference is. The terms are so often used inter-changeably. If I were to guess, pro-life has a more religious connotation, an anti-abortion stance is more scientifically based. Am I close? I could see many overlaps, however..
This is where I am on it. I really discount anyone's opinion who thinks there are only two sides to an issue. This is a very complex issue and I would rather have a dialogue and do things that preserve as many lives as possible. Scientific advances over the last 50 years give us the ability to know any risks, genetic issues within weeks, so we now have information to have those discussions with someone considering abortion early in the first trimester.
To use merge's line "why", why can't we make it possible to have those discussions be required immediately if considering an abortion is one of your options. It would be preferred if that unborn child had someone speaking and advocating for them to give them the best chance to live. Let's ask "why" and then figure out "how" to preserve as many lives as possible.
