Seton Hall initiates probe into potential abuse at seminaries

[donnie_baseball]

A mountain of research and clinical practice indicates the opposite of what you said. Sadly, the culture decided to reject this and buy into what they wanted to believe.

In my pastoral practice, which has involved many homosexual persons, the genesis of the same sex attraction was developmental, often trauma based, and very often involved sexual abuse. Clients often indicate they felt they were born that way but once they enter a therapeutuc process realize that this wasn't the case. Feeling "different" often goes back into earliest childhood but reflects on parental relationships, not biology.

There is not even one truly scientific study to indicated a biological origin of homosexuality.

I certainly don't have the pastoral experience that you do, Father, but your last sentence is right on. Twin concordance studies show a very low percentage of both identical twins (with exactly the same DNA) being homosexual. You won't see many of these studies in modern times, because it's not politically correct. If it's not genetic, then, what is it?

 

[shu09]

A mountain of research and clinical practice indicates the opposite of what you said. Sadly, the culture decided to reject this and buy into what they wanted to believe.

In my pastoral practice, which has involved many homosexual persons, the genesis of the same sex attraction was developmental, often trauma based, and very often involved sexual abuse. Clients often indicate they felt they were born that way but once they enter a therapeutuc process realize that this wasn't the case. Feeling "different" often goes back into earliest childhood but reflects on parental relationships, not biology.

There is not even one truly scientific study to indicated a biological origin of homosexuality.

This is such a warped, off base take. I feel bad for you.

How does a "therapeutic process" prove them saying they were born that way actually wasn't the case? What a load of garbage.

Are "straight" folks not born the way they are? They couldn't be, because orientation can't be genetic according to you.

 

[catholicman]

I certainly don't have the pastoral experience that you do, Father, but your last sentence is right on. Twin concordance studies show a very low percentage of both identical twins (with exactly the same DNA) being homosexual. You won't see many of these studies in modern times, because it's not politically correct. If it's not genetic, then, what is it?

It's developmental and/or trauma based.

 

[Joe_T]

It's developmental and/or trauma based.

Once before you posted a slanted opinion piece as proof of fact, so I had to check your "mountain of evidence" claim. Here's what the American Psychological Association says on their website as the answer to the question, "What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?"

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."​

 

[catholicman]

Once before you posted a slanted opinion piece as proof of fact, so I had to check your "mountain of evidence" claim. Here's what the American Psychological Association says on their website as the answer to the question, "What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?"

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."​

The APA arbitrarily changed their perspective in the 1970s. You're not going to get the truth from them.

 

[catholicman]

But the APA actually bolsters my point by indicating the lack of consensus among scientists. If people were born that way it would be biologically provable. But it isnt!

 

[Belluno]

Should I be comforted by the fact it was mainly teenagers and seminarians who were molested by their superiors. What I find interesting is there has been no discussion of the sinfulness of these acts or was it decided that all the perpetrators had to do was hug and shake hands at the sign of peace to be transferred to a new parish to molest again. I wonder how many of those molesters were distributing communion unworthily.

You are making Catholic man's point when he referred to a lavender Mafia. Those are the Bishops who moved these priests around like chess pieces. Now it appears that homosexual Colombians have been imported to attend seminaries in this country including the Diocese of Newark. This gets more disgusting with every passing day and yet there are those who deny the problem still

 

[shu09]

But the APA actually bolsters my point by indicating the lack of consensus among scientists. If people were born that way it would be biologically provable. But it isnt!

One day it will be proved.

 

[Belluno]

Ask any gay person and they'll tell you they were born that way. Can't do anything about it.

But we are called on to rise above our frailties, regardless of how they occur. Could Willie Sutton excuse his actions by claiming he had a bank robber gene at birth? Sodomy and heterosexual sex outside of marriage on mortal sins. So these priests have a double whammy to begin with plus they are giving scandal. The list keeps on growing Hetero or homo they all should be defrocked and thrown in jail

 

[shu09]

But we are called on to rise above our frailties, regardless of how they occur. Could Willie Sutton excuse his actions by claiming he had a bank robber gene at birth? Sodomy and heterosexual sex outside of marriage on mortal sins. So these priests have a double whammy to begin with plus they are giving scandal. The list keeps on growing Hetero or homo they all should be defrocked and thrown in jail

I agree with you on the priests.

I'm talking about the separate topic of orientation that has been discussed on this thread.

 

[knowknow456]

I wonder how many people are receiving communion unworthily, if they attend Mass at all. Priests used to advise the congregation that only Catholics in a state of grace can receive Communion. ..... I pray that all were in a state of grace but with so many believing their conscience rules, I have to wonder.

Luke 18: 9-14
Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: 10 “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was Belluno, and the other was not. 11 Belluno stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. 12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’

13 “But the other stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ 14 I tell you, this sinner, not Belluno, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

[jcalz88]

“In my pastoral practice”


You are a priest my man not a doctor or a psychologist lol.

Makes sense you don’t know what it is you are talking about. You are not trained in the science You have studied doctrine and are using your faith.

Now I get it. Sorry we argued I actually thought you knew what it was you were talking about.

Next week I’ll be giving tax advice on the trove make sure to take it

 

[Section112]

But we are called on to rise above our frailties, regardless of how they occur. Could Willie Sutton excuse his actions by claiming he had a bank robber gene at birth? Sodomy and heterosexual sex outside of marriage on mortal sins. So these priests have a double whammy to begin with plus they are giving scandal. The list keeps on growing Hetero or homo they all should be defrocked and thrown in jail

Maybe if our Bishops and Cardinals and priests were better role models and weren't doing these bad things we might be able to attract more US priests? Or maybe if priests were allowed to be married and gave up the celibacy thing which is clearly not working we could attract more priestsZ? Or maybe if we recognized 50% of the population and allowed them to be clergy we would have more clergy that could speak to that 50% of the population too. Then we wouldn't have to import priests from Columbia and Poland and other places that don't understand much about us.

I heard that many of these priests have caused the Diocese a huge amount of trouble because they like to play soccer late at night and then they go out and have a good time and they've been missing early morning mass. They also don't pay their own way like most US priests have done for a long time for the seminary. A number of them have also been sent home because they are so useless. Just another piece of proof that it is not working - but let's keep everything the same because our religion is too stupid to learn from its mistakes that are made over and over again.

And by the way God made us all in his likeness so some of the people you continue to put down with your words are just like God.

 

[Belluno]

You need to become an Episcopal as soon as possible. Aren't you the one who who said the parent of a homosexual child must support that child in his sin? Thank God Saint Monica didn't think as you do.

Now you claim that God is a homosexual and I guess by extension a sinner . You are really going off the deep end now

 

[Section112]

You need to become an Episcopal as soon as possible. Aren't you the one who who said the parent of a homosexual child must support that child in his sin? Thank God Saint Monica didn't think as you do.

Now you claim that God is a homosexual and I guess by extension a sinner . You are really going off the deep end now

Just following you my friend... One of the commandments say thou shall not judge - you should consider that one some more.

 

[Section112]

You need to become an Episcopal as soon as possible. Aren't you the one who who said the parent of a homosexual child must support that child in his sin? Thank God Saint Monica didn't think as you do.

Now you claim that God is a homosexual and I guess by extension a sinner . You are really going off the deep end now

And no I did not ever say that it was a sin. I don't believe that being what you are is a sin - that is where we will always differ. Not sure I know anywhere in the scriptures where Jesus said it was a sin but I'm sure you can point to somewhere in the crazy Catholic rules where it says that.

 

[catholicman]

“In my pastoral practice”


You are a priest my man not a doctor or a psychologist lol.

Makes sense you don’t know what it is you are talking about. You are not trained in the science You have studied doctrine and are using your faith.

Now I get it. Sorry we argued I actually thought you knew what it was you were talking about.

Next week I’ll be giving tax advice on the trove make sure to take it

Did it ever occur to you that priests might have degrees, certificates, or licenses beyond theology?

 

[jcalz88]

Yes, lets hear yours.

 

[Belluno]

And no I did not ever say that it was a sin. I don't believe that being what you are is a sin - that is where we will always differ. Not sure I know anywhere in the scriptures where Jesus said it was a sin but I'm sure you can point to somewhere in the crazy Catholic rules where it says that.

There are several very clear references in the New Testament about the sinfulness of homosexual acts in Romans and Corinthians for sure and probably other places, too. Misinterpret them or deny them if you will, but their meaning is crystal clear and the New Testament is the word of God. Incidentally, Jesus never mentioned rape, beastiality, pedophilia, necrophilia, or pornography to my knowledge. The Bible never was intended to provide an all-inclusive list of sinful Acts

Among Catholics crazy beliefs is the appearance of the Blessed Mother at Fatima where she said the majority of souls suffering in hell are there because of sins of the flesh. Sister Lucia one of the three Fatima children wrote that the final battle between God and Satan will be fought over marriage and the family. It appears the attack has begun in earnest.

Finally what's the number of that judgment commandment you refer to? We are called upon to avoid proximate occasions of sin and that would involve making judgments. Jesus was referring to assigning a soul to Heaven or Hell because that is absolutely the purview of God and God Alone

 

[Pirate64]

But the APA actually bolsters my point by indicating the lack of consensus among scientists. If people were born that way it would be biologically provable. But it isnt!

My father and one of his brothers were family men- sons of immigrants- gentlemen but tough WWII guys.
There youngest brother was gay - unfortunately was in the closet until his death in the 80’s.
Same nurturing family. It was biology. At least in this case.

 

[jcalz88]

My father and one of his brothers were family men- sons of immigrants- gentlemen but tough WWII guys.
There youngest brother was gay - unfortunately was in the closet until his death in the 80’s.
Same nurturing family. It was biology. At least in this case.

@catholic man

Our disagreement aside, I have a real question for you that I do not have an answer to.



Faith is something we are asked to believe in. “To have faith in something” To me it is you either have faith or you don’t. It is not something you can prove scientifically, it is not something you can point to in a strand of DNA. It is that feeling and guidance inside everyone and everyone feels differently about it.


Can you and I agree on this?



Now lets take that that same argument and talk about people being gay. There is nothing we can prove scientifically, and it is not something we can point to in a strand on DNA.


Could it be possible that you are born that way but there are just some things we cannot explain yet.



Would like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[sami]

Next week I’ll be giving tax advice on the trove make sure to take it

As jokes escape some people, be aware that this is one.

 

[Section112]

Heard a great sermon this week from a Franciscan on LBI saying we need to question our church and our churches rules just like Jesus questioned the Hebrew rules that went back centuries in the readings. Said all that matters is we live a good life, help and love our neighbor and develop a solid relationship with God. Said many of the rules that have been thrust upon us are not valid as long as we are doing those things - could not agree more.

Said he wants feedback from all the lay people in the parish as the Bishops and Cardinals who created clericalism (essentially two classes - the clergy and lay people) have lost their chance to clean this up and encouraged as much feedback and involvement from the lay people as possible. Love it!

 

[Merge]

Heard a great sermon this week from a Franciscan on LBI saying we need to question our church and our churches rules just like Jesus questioned the Hebrew rules that went back centuries in the readings. Said all that matters is we live a good life, help and love our neighbor and develop a solid relationship with God. Said many of the rules that have been thrust upon us are not valid as long as we are doing those things - could not agree more.

Said he wants feedback from all the lay people in the parish as the Bishops and Cardinals who created clericalism (essentially two classes - the clergy and lay people) have lost their chance to clean this up and encouraged as much feedback and involvement from the lay people as possible. Love it!

Great message! Someone from my church expresses a similar message to me in my high school youth group. That stuck with me and shaped much of my religious beliefs.

Which church was that? I just got back from LBI as well. Hope you had a great trip. Almost perfect weather last week.

 

[Section112]

Thanks! It was St. Thomas in Beach Haven which is part of the St. Francis parish. The Franciscans usually seem to have the right perspective.

 

[Merge]

Thanks! It was St. Thomas in Beach Haven which is part of the St. Francis parish. The Franciscans usually seem to have the right perspective.

Nice. We stayed on 2nd street a few years and went to that church. Love that area with so much in walking distance.

 

[Pirata]

Heard a great sermon this week from a Franciscan on LBI saying we need to question our church and our churches rules just like Jesus questioned the Hebrew rules that went back centuries in the readings. Said all that matters is we live a good life, help and love our neighbor and develop a solid relationship with God. Said many of the rules that have been thrust upon us are not valid as long as we are doing those things - could not agree more.

Also could not agree more.

There is no cause to let the failings of the earthly church excuse us from our relationship with God or leading a good life of work and helping others.

 

[donnie_baseball]

“In my pastoral practice”


You are a priest my man not a doctor or a psychologist lol.

Makes sense you don’t know what it is you are talking about. You are not trained in the science You have studied doctrine and are using your faith.

I'm trained in the sciences, and there is a lot of truth in what he said. Look up twin concordance studies. In the end, it's probably going to be found to be multifactorial.

You obviously have no respect for priests, but in the real world, they are counsellors, psychologists, and life-coaches to many.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Finally what's the number of that judgment commandment you refer to? We are called upon to avoid proximate occasions of sin and that would involve making judgments. Jesus was referring to assigning a soul to Heaven or Hell because that is absolutely the purview of God and God Alone

It's the little known "you're ok, I'm ok" 11th Commandment, espoused by sandal-wearing clergy at the beach.

 

[Section112]

It's the little known "you're ok, I'm ok" 11th Commandment, espoused by sandal-wearing clergy at the beach.

Jesus wore sandals at the beach too - haha!