SHU & gay marriage back in news

[Harty9]

SOUTH ORANGE ? A committee will meet at Seton Hall University today to consider whether the Catholic school should cancel a course on gay marriage scheduled for the fall.

The fate of the undergraduate class has been in question since Newark Archbishop John J. Myers issued a statement last month saying "the course is not in synch with Catholic teaching." The dispute between the conservative archbishop and university administrators who approved the class has attracted national attention.

The Seton Hall Board of Regents asked one of its subcommittees, called the Mission and Identity Committee, to evaluate the course, said Thomas White, a Seton Hall spokesman. The committee’s dozen or so members will meet behind closed doors on the South Orange campus beginning today, though it is unclear how they will proceed or how long they will take to make their recommendation.

 

[SnakeTom]

Gay Marriage is a social issue and a valid topic for study and analysis by College students and specifically sociology majors. If the powers that be are fearfull that students taking the course are going to convert to being gay that's absolute nonsense & paranoia. It's no different than taking a course on drug abuse. Does that mean students in the course will want to become junkies? The purpose of college is to learn how to think. You do this by listening to all perspectives not by being told what to think. It's really an issue of academic freedon as I see it.

Tom K

 

[Section112]

Tom I agree.

I think what the University did wrong here though was just confine this to one issue. There are a number of issues confronting our society currently that they could study including gay marriage. You give the class a different title and end of story.

I took a class in the early 80's given by Professor McGlone (my favorite all time SHU prof) and it was called Group Discussion. We discussed the issues of the time which were abortion and other controversial issues and gave good discussion and respect to the discussions. It was a fantastic class and one that allowed discussion of all sides.

I hope the University keeps the class but they should learn in the future to give it less of a controversial name and that would call less attention to things.

 

[The SHUttle]

I took Group Discussion with Prof. McGlone in my first semester in 2001! That remains one of my favorite classes I ever took at SHU.

I think the issue is that we can assume the professor of this class will promote the acceptance of it. There were some pretty radical ideas spouted by professors during my time at Seton Hall. I even got into an argument with a liberal professor about it in a class called Personality Concepts.

 

[SPK145]

Does a Catholic university have to have or give complete academic freedom? No, they don't.

So is Seton Hall more Catholic than university? I don't know the answer to that and it sounds like Seton Hall doesn't know that answer either. Whichever way they choose is fine but they should be honest and upfront about it.

 

[shu09]

I also took that class with Professor McGlone. He has some pretty far-right views, especially on social issues, but he is a good man and conducts a great class.

 

[PiratePride]

It's hard to form an opinion on this since I don't know what the premise of the class is... what is the official title, for instance and what will be in the syllabus? What department is the course being offered by?

If the purpose is to promote gay "marriage" as being morally equivalent to marriage between a man and a woman, then the University should indeed not allow it. I might be ok with it if it is used as a way to present the situation confronting gay people today and the dilemmas they face with long term relationships. In any event, it is not a course that I would want to spend my tuition dollars on.

 

[bdiddy25]

Seton Hall is perfectly within its rights to cancel this ridiculous class. Just like it should the hundred other ridiculous classes they have there. Maybe gay marriage is a valid topic of study but it's going to be nothing more than propaganda. Can you honestly think of what an entire semesters worth of study will consist of? What can they possibly teach? This is an issue that should be taken up in a course about marriage, straight or gay. There is no reason to dedicate four months to this.

I may be late on this story but where has anyone said they are considering canceling the course because they're fearful students will convert to homosexuality?

This is a Roman Catholic school. You all know where they stand on the issues so get over it.

 

[SnakeTom]

Originally posted by SPK145:
Does a Catholic university have to have or give complete academic freedom? No, they don't.

So is Seton Hall more Catholic than university? I don't know the answer to that and it sounds like Seton Hall doesn't know that answer either. Whichever way they choose is fine but they should be honest and upfront about it.

SPK: We both went to Seton Hall for an EDUCATION because we believed that it was first and foremost a University. As an educational institution we studied many varied things which the church may or may not have an official opinion on but we were allowed to study them & form our own opinions. For example the Catholic Church does not approve of divorce yet the law school has a course on Family Law & Divorce. To do otherwise would not only be sticking ones head in the sand but also limiting our education & the value of our degrees. I see this as no different. Whether one wishes to acknowledge it or not there are people who are gay & there always will be. This is by birth not choice. And the problems associated with it are valid subjects for inquiry & study.

Tom K

 

[SPK145]

Tom,

That's your answer and a good one. What is Seton Hall's take? I may not have attended Seton Hall these days based on what it may be becoming.

From another post, I took Theology of Marriage with Dr. Pire. Great course, whacky professor.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Wow, was Pire out there. Sorry, this class isn't appropriate for a Catholic University; I'm with SPK on this one, the U decides what is and isn't acceptable, under the banner of being a Catholic institution. Let's not go the way of UND and Georgetown, which are Catholic in name only at this point.

 

[SPK145]

BTW, I'm personally fine care with the class. In a public, real university, this class would be perfectly fine. I'm just curious to find out exactly what Seton Hall is.

 

[Merge]

Originally posted by SPK145:
BTW, I'm personally fine care with the class. In a public, real university, this class would be perfectly fine. I'm just curious to find out exactly what Seton Hall is.

I think they will keep the class, as they should in my opinion.

The only problem with the class is the name. Change it to something about current political issues and they would have been fine.

I took religious dimensions of life as my only religion course.
We only focused on Buddhism. Although I really enjoyed learning about Buddhism, I could see a valid argument about that class filling a religion requirement at a Catholic school.

I expect the gay marriage debate to heat up quite a bit and relatively soon so I see this as a valid subject for a class from a political perspective at least.

 

[SnakeTom]

Originally posted by donnie_baseball:
Wow, was Pire out there. Sorry, this class isn't appropriate for a Catholic University; I'm with SPK on this one, the U decides what is and isn't acceptable, under the banner of being a Catholic institution. Let's not go the way of UND and Georgetown, which are Catholic in name only at this point.

I think you missed Steve's point. If I'm correct he is asking is Seton Hall more of a Catholic Institution or more a University. Of course it is both but most of us went there for an education not to learn how to be a Catholic. As far as I'm concerned it is a Universty primarily & it should remain so. That does not mean that they can not emphasize Catholic doctrine but all points of view should also be presented as part of the learning process.

Now as to Donnie's comments about Notre Dame and Georgetown, I would be very happy if our academic reputation was as strong as those two Universities are.

Just one other thing a few posters said that THEY would not want to take such a course. That's fine but that is not the criteria of whether a University offers any particular course. I for one would never want to take a calculous course because I hated math but that certainly does not mean the University should stop giving math courses.

Tom K

 

[JMM13]

What is academically compelling anout a course on gay marriage except to be politically correct.

 

[SnakeTom]

Originally posted by JMM13:
What is academically compelling anout a course on gay marriage except to be politically correct.

It has nothing to do with being politically correct. It is a course for sociology or social studies majors dealing with issues affecting society. Probably the biggest problem with this course is its title as others have said. When I was a student at SHU I took a course known as Social Problems which would have included this topic among many others facing society. But that would have been a more general course. One in that major would also take more specfic courses to go into greater detail on individual social issues such as this one.

Tom K

 

[Bobbie Solo]

lol

 

[SPK145]

Do we think this is more about who is teaching the course than the actual course?

What if a Jerry Falwell type was teaching the exact same course???

 

[SnakeTom]

Very good point SPK. I do not know much about the Professor other than the fact that he is gay which in itself means nothing. But regardless of whover is teaching the course, it should be used to examine all issues involved & not used as a pulpit to preach one point of view.

Tom K

 

[PiratePride]

.... which goes to the point of an earlier question I asked about the content of the course. What the heck is going to be taught? If the main theme of the course is about two people of the same sex getting "married"... then the school has no business sponsoring it. Aren't there other courses about human sexuality at SHU in which homosexuality and all of it's issues are discussed? Why one whole course dedicated to something that goes against the teachings of the Church?

 

[Bobbie Solo]

ah....you can almost smell the intolerance in the post above mine.

 

[PiratePride]

Please point out the "intolerance"

 

[Merge]

Originally posted by PiratePride:
.... which goes to the point of an earlier question I asked about the content of the course. What the heck is going to be taught? If the main theme of the course is about two people of the same sex getting "married"... then the school has no business sponsoring it. Aren't there other courses about human sexuality at SHU in which homosexuality and all of it's issues are discussed? Why one whole course dedicated to something that goes against the teachings of the Church?

I would actually like to see the course outline as well but Mott is not releasing it until 2 weeks prior to the start of class. (At least that was the case as a couple weeks ago)

I really think the burden is on him to sell the value of the course and I think it hurts his case to not give the syllabus early.

again though, I took Buddhism as my religion course... at a Catholic school. It still doesn't make sense to me, but I am glad I took it.

 

[Section112]

Merge that is a good point and I agree. If it is controversial in any way, how can any governing body decide if it is appropriate or not or provide recommendations/guidance? What they should do at this point is just say until the content is clear, they cannot make a decision. Once the content is clear, they will consider the course for the winter semester. Registration already happened so move on.

 

[boatshu]

The fact that the school is even wasting it's time with such courses is absurd. The school has been cutting classes and programs left and right for what? To make room for classes on gay marriage? Give me a break. Amongst the many technical subjects that the school has dropped over the years it has recently dropped the computer science program. Now tell me please where is the logic in this? Where are the priorities? Like I said the fact that this is even being debated when the school should be focused on retaining and improving courses of substance is shameful.

 

[Belluno]

Originally posted by Merge:

Originally posted by PiratePride:
... I took Buddhism as my religion course... at a Catholic school. It still doesn't make sense to me, but I am glad I took it.

Perhaps the significant difference is whether or not the professor in your Buddhism course proselytized. From what I am reading here there appears to be legitimate concern over the course content and the goal of the professor. Personally, I'd drop this course and reinstate the track and field program.

 

[bdiddy25]

This is why kids are a million times dumber and less dedicated than they were 20-30 years ago. They're taking classes that are absolutely useless in life. Teach the class if you want. Less competition for good jobs.

 

[Merge]

Originally posted by boatshu:
The fact that the school is even wasting it's time with such courses is absurd. The school has been cutting classes and programs left and right for what? To make room for classes on gay marriage? Give me a break. Amongst the many technical subjects that the school has dropped over the years it has recently dropped the computer science program. Now tell me please where is the logic in this? Where are the priorities? Like I said the fact that this is even being debated when the school should be focused on retaining and improving courses of substance is shameful.

Classes are cut because students lose interest.
If the CS classes were in high demand, they wouldn't have cut them.

The class on gay marriage is full.

 

[boatshu]

Please, don't try to tell me there isn't a demand for engineering courses. It's a staple at any serious school.

 

[Muggsy Blue]

I didn't realize that Seton Hall had a School of Engineering. I thought we had a partner program with NJIT and they taught all the engineering courses. When did this go bye the by?

 

[The SHUttle]

The CS classes weren't in high demand because the department was awful. They made a lot of promises, but fell short everytime.

 

[Merge]

Whatever the case, kids weren't signing up for the program.

How do you compare adding a class on gay marriage which had high demand to a computer science program that had very little demand (for whatever reason)

 

[boatshu]

Bc in my eyes, as someone who values and knows the importance of science, SHUs priorities make me want to rip my hair out. I can't understand how they can allow a program that is a staple at any serious university to fail. CS is demanding and attracts some of the smartest students at any school. But let's continue to water down our schools academic reputation. Absurd.

 

[Merge]

Originally posted by boatshu:
Bc in my eyes, as someone who values and knows the importance of science, SHUs priorities make me want to rip my hair out. I can't understand how they can allow a program that is a staple at any serious university to fail. CS is demanding and attracts some of the smartest students at any school. But let's continue to water down our schools academic reputation. Absurd.

The problem with computer science is that there was an enormous boom in the field up to 2000 and it has cooled.

Seton Hall is not a technical school. They are not attracting the best at the brightest engineering majors to take a full course load in 3 years and then move on to the NJIT partnership for 2. They have to recognize what they are and strengthen those departments. It seems to be working for the business school.

We can debate majors and programs but it really has nothing to do with the validity of this class.

As I mentioned, I am not happy about the fact that Mott will not produce a syllabus to help with the debate. However, as an elective... I can guarantee that it is going to help students develop research and reasoning skills more than Yoga or Scuba diving.

 

[tchaka shipp]

Can you honestly think of what an entire semesters worth of study will consist of? What can they possibly teach? This is an issue that should be taken up in a course about marriage, straight or gay. There is no reason to dedicate four months to this.

How about compassion and acceptance. This class should be taught at Seton Hall because as a Catholic University we should be promoting tolerance and understanding of the subject through valid debate and discussion. Snake Tom brought up a great point about the divorce class. No one was up in arms over that. Homosexuality is real. Just because it doesn't effect you does not mean it shouldn't be considered real.

On a side note, I live in Los Angeles and went to a pediatrist the other day to fix a foot problem. He noticed my accent and asked where I was from. I told him I was from NJ and to my surprise told me his daughter went to Seton Hall. Shocked, I told him I went there as well.

He then talked for 20 minutes on how much respect he has for the University. He sent 4 kids to Universities on athletic scholarships (Duke, Bucknell, Stanford, Seton Hall). He then proceeded to tell me that in his opinion, his daughter that went to Seton Hall, recieved the best education.

He prefaced the story with the fact that he himself is an athiest but told me that because of the schools requirement to take so many credits in philosophy and religion, he felt his daughter came out of school with a better understanding of the world and said Seton Hall taught her to think critically and on her own, something he felt lacked from his other children. It really was amazing, he talked with such admiration for the University.

I feel if we don't offer classes like these we will fail to be relevant because we are refusing to deal with something that is definitely part of our society. Lastly, I know that Homosexuality is not in the church's teachings and was considered a sin in the first testament of the bible. I believe Divorce was a sin also. The bible also told stories of a man and a woman in a garden starting the world with a talking snake. Do we teach creationism at Seton Hall or de we teach Evolution? When the bible was written the scientific method was almost 1500 years or more away from being created hence there is no science in the bible. Science has since discovered the gay gene. Gay is not a choice. Should that be considered in the church's stance? Of course not, why use reason. The church will never change, Seton Hall should. Seton Hall should teach the catholic mission in a forever changing world and continue to adapt.

 

[SPK145]

Originally posted by tchaka shipp:

Seton Hall should teach the catholic mission in a forever changing world and continue to adapt.

The problem is the Catholic mission is at odds with the Catholic doctrine. Hypocritical organized religion, not a Seton Hall problem.

 

[tchaka shipp]

that is true, sadly.

 

[PiratePride]

Originally posted by SPK145:

Originally posted by tchaka shipp:

Seton Hall should teach the catholic mission in a forever changing world and continue to adapt.

The problem is the Catholic mission is at odds with the Catholic doctrine. Hypocritical organized religion, not a Seton Hall problem.

I agree with the points made that SHU should adapt to the modern world with respect to the courses it offers. It shouldn't however, be done at the expense of it's core priciples. Back to the question of what the curriculim for the course will be. Aren't there courses already being offered that speak to human sexuality? Isn't homosexuality and gay marriage discussed in those forums? I ask again why a course on gay marriage is necessary.

I do disagree with the contention that the Catholic Mission is at odds with Catholic doctrine. That's a prety broad statement. If groups or organizations come up with their own interpretaion of what the Catholic Mission should be, that's where you'll see a difference. Take "social justice" for example. I see some Catholics accepting abortion under the overall umbrella of social justice. If they do that, they are doing so at the expense of one of the core principles of the Church. The Catholic mission of social justice as they define it is now at odds with doctrine. I don't think it's the Church that is hypocritical here.

 

[Belluno]

Originally posted by SPK145:

Originally posted by tchaka shipp:

Seton Hall should teach the catholic mission in a forever changing world and continue to adapt.

The problem is the Catholic mission is at odds with the Catholic doctrine. Hypocritical organized religion, not a Seton Hall problem.

How so?

 

[SPK145]

Catholic doctrine says homosexuality is a sin, an abomination even. Yet the Catholic mission "preaches" tolerance, forgiveness, etc. A dichotomy if ever there was one.

You're going to hell but turn the other cheek. Don't gamble but come to bingo Wednesday night. Here's Catholicity, pick a tray.