She didn't delete a thing. She had one of her minions do it so she could say she didn't! Get it straight! lol
Brady's Four Game Suspension Will Stand
- Thread starter HallLine69
- Start date
The NFL leaks inaccurate data to ESPN, which begins the basis for this entire controversy. If the leaked information represented the actual measurements, as well as the measurements of the Colts' balls, this is not a story.
At halftime, all 12 of the Patriots' balls were measured with both needles. Only 4 of the Colts' balls were measured, with 3 of the 4 measuring in under the minimum amount on one of the two gauges. Why weren't all 12 balls measured, especially when 3 of the 4 were proven to be under inflated by one of the gauges? Clearly they had no interest in if the Colts were guilty of any wrongdoing.
The NFL had the phone records and devices of every non NFLPA member, so if Brady spoke to any of the staff or coaches about deflategate, the NFL had the conversation. The NFL cleared the Patriots organization and coaches of any wrongdoing, but they take away a 1st and 4th round pick and fine them $1 million dollars?
I'm not even a Patriots fan, but this is the most overblown, one-sided controversy I can ever remember. Clearly, the other owners went to Goodell and said "We are tired of the Patriots skirting the rules and if you don't come down on them we are going to vote you out the next chance we get." There is no justification for any of this insanity and the NFL has got to be losing fans because of it. This is the least amount of interest I've ever had heading into a season and this entire offseason drama is a huge part of the reason why.
At halftime, all 12 of the Patriots' balls were measured with both needles. Only 4 of the Colts' balls were measured, with 3 of the 4 measuring in under the minimum amount on one of the two gauges. Why weren't all 12 balls measured, especially when 3 of the 4 were proven to be under inflated by one of the gauges? Clearly they had no interest in if the Colts were guilty of any wrongdoing.
The NFL had the phone records and devices of every non NFLPA member, so if Brady spoke to any of the staff or coaches about deflategate, the NFL had the conversation. The NFL cleared the Patriots organization and coaches of any wrongdoing, but they take away a 1st and 4th round pick and fine them $1 million dollars?
I'm not even a Patriots fan, but this is the most overblown, one-sided controversy I can ever remember. Clearly, the other owners went to Goodell and said "We are tired of the Patriots skirting the rules and if you don't come down on them we are going to vote you out the next chance we get." There is no justification for any of this insanity and the NFL has got to be losing fans because of it. This is the least amount of interest I've ever had heading into a season and this entire offseason drama is a huge part of the reason why.
I have skimmed through the testimony and there are multiple problems for the NFL. Here is one example of what we (patriots apologists) have all been bitching about in Goodell's ruling to uphold the suspension in his ruling document he released to the public he stated that after Brady had never texted Jankowski for months then he had multiple text exchanges with him after the fact and that Brady told him they were only about ball preparation for the SB. Goodell found this unbeleivable in his ruling essentially calling Brady a liar to the press and the public. Now the entire hearing transcript is released and Brady says nothing short of 8 times that he spoke to him also about the deflategate allegations. Brady did this under oath and then Goodell in his ruling completely lied to everybody about what Brady had said, I guess he thought these documents would stay sealed. The guy is an absolute POS.
http://larrybrownsports.com/football/roger-goodell-lied-tom-brady-dishonest/269436
http://larrybrownsports.com/football/roger-goodell-lied-tom-brady-dishonest/269436
If you are speaking of empirical proof, then you are correct.
If you are speaking of preponderance (i.e. plurality, the larger portion) of evidence, then IMHO you are reading something other than what I am reading.
Brady has been quoted often on TV that he prefers lower PSI in his footballs.
The NFL did get Text messages from Jastremski's cell phone. In Text messages between Jastremski and McNally, McNally refers to himself as "The Deflator". These two also discuss needles and deflating footballs. McNally repeatedly told Jastremski that Brady had better supply cash, shoes, clothing and other autographed items.
On AFCCG game-day McNally accepted properly-inflated Patriot footballs from the officials in the Officials Locker room (which had an attached toilet). McNally then immediately:
-- took all of the balls into a men's room,
-- locked the door, and
-- was in there for about two minutes
McNally initially lied about this. Even if McNally did NOT tamper with the balls these actions themselves are deemed a definite breach of protocol. 100 seconds was proven to be more than sufficient time to deflate all of the balls.
Per Brady, for the six months between July 2014 & mid-January 2015, Brady and Jastremski spoke on the phone only once or perhaps twice and they never met in private.
Brady said he never texted Jastremski during that period.
Then, right after the AFCCG blow-up Brady texted Jastremski 12 times, spoke to him on that cell for 25 minutes and then met with him privately in the QB room.
Is this "empirical proof" of wrong doing? No. Is it highly suspicious? Yes.
If someone accused you and another person of doing something "illegal" or "inappropriate" and it became a national story, you wouldn't call them or text them to figure out what the hell happened?
Wow...Old Alum just knocked it out of the park. Very well done, sir. My guess is no one will be able to refute you point for point, but a few will take scatter shots at a point or two and then walk away....in the intellectually dishonest manner.
Exactly the kind of weak, scatter-shot reply I thought we might see.....ignoring the detailed facts Old Alum carefully laid out and firing off a single round from the hip.
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
Goodell probably overcompensated a bit with the suspension because of his past mistakes, but the Patriots have been cheating for years so I'm not losing sleep over it. Before Carroll literally handed them the SB this year they had won all 3 of their previous ones by a field goal. I'm not saying they would have lost any of them had they not been filming team's practices, but it obviously provided them with an advantage, otherwise they wouldn't have been doing it.
As a NYG fan I've gotten more than enough satisfaction out of beating them twice that I really don't dislike them as much as other fans, but it is nice to see Brady's legacy get tarnished a bit considering he's turning out to be a bit of a shady dude.
As a NYG fan I've gotten more than enough satisfaction out of beating them twice that I really don't dislike them as much as other fans, but it is nice to see Brady's legacy get tarnished a bit considering he's turning out to be a bit of a shady dude.
Actually, he flied out to center and you moved the fences to call it a homerun to fit your predetermined decision. When someone offered you the exact opposite of what you predicted, a more than reasonable point (one that's being made by objective people with legal perspective) you were quick to dismiss it. It's almost a microcosm of this sham of a process, minus the multiple inaccurate leaks and results-for-hire firm to provide the science that fits the agenda. OAs post has some mischaracterization, misinformation, over reliance on circumstantial evidence and poor arguments, and ignoring of evidence that doesn’t help. That doesn't mean there aren't valid points here.
The texts between ‘Dumb and Dumber’ are troubling are troubling and suspicious. There is no getting around that. They are not damning. The breach of protocol is highly suspicious. Stating Brady has been quoted often on TV that he prefers lower PSI in his footballs is a mischaracterization. That reads as if he himself has stated that on TV often. Here’s the quote: “When Gronk scores – it was like his eighth touchdown of the year – he spikes the ball and he deflates the ball,” Brady said in November 2011. “I love that, because I like the deflated ball. But I feel bad for that football, because he puts everything he can into those spikes.” Pro athletes giving items and money to equipment personnel, typically very low salary employees, is commonplace in pro sports. That doesn’t mean the possibility doesn’t exist a payoff happened, but it does weaken the argument. The Brady – Jastremski conversation timeline argue doesn’t hold water and that’s already been covered in this thread.
Overall, the evidence is weak and circumstantial. There is no hard evidence. Brady’s testimony is barely covered in the Wells report. The science, which did not help the NFL’s case, gets explained away by a firm known for producing desired results. Nothing to see here. Brady testified under oath, which is significant, denying knowledge of and instruction of deflating footballs. His integrity has never been called into question before. His accuser on the other hand..well… No legal expert without a dog in this fight agreed with the Wells Report findings and/or punishment and that was before the appeal transcripts were made available - you know the transcript the NFL did not want made public (the NFLPA did), but falsely leaked a report (they've got a knack for this) to their own Network stating it was the NFLPA that didn't want it released - that transcript - the shit is really starting to hit the fan for Supreme Leader Goodell.
I finished the transcript yesterday (don’t bother the good stuff is readily available on the internet). To be clear, none of it completely exonerates Brady or the dumby twins. That won’t happen, nor should it based on the fishy stuff. What it does do is shine a bright light on the entirety of the process. There is a reason the NFL wanted this sealed. They might as well move their HQ to Pyonyang. What is does do is show there is far more evidence, hard evidence, of Goodell and company are who we thought they were (courtesy Dennis Green) and even worse! Here’s a link that provides some links which cover some of these major, troubling issues.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/07/will-goodell-face-another-media-scrum-in-canton/
OA is not wrong in that a preponderance of evidence is used as the standard in this case. The problem is this isn’t a real court or anything even close to it. This is the court of Supreme Leader Goodell. The NFL came to a conclusion first, and then tried to back into the support and evidence. So OA is right in that the NFL had all the evidence they needed to render the verdict, because they have no standard (or morals) at all. Then again, I’m pretty sure the NFL could find a way to find Brady (or any player) to have more probable than not had generally caused global warming, simply because said player farted. Look closely at these fools. Yeah, I trust ‘em. Sure…
Should I flip my bat and round the bases? Conveniently predetermine any rebuttal that disagrees with me is immediately invalid and said poster will walk away…in the intellectually dishonest manner?
I would agree with you completely IF I were innocent and/or that person were not complicit with me.
If however I were guilty and that person was complicit with me then I would be all over him to learn what he had already said and to discuss what he should say in the future to the investigator.
I take exception to your litany of short-comings you see but never identify in my post.
There is absolutely NO mischaracterization or misinformation. Please tell me where you see it.
I also take exception with your statement that I had as "over reliance". I will accept "reliance". Please see next section.
You see, given both the NLRB approved, 40 year old (with renewals), and NFLPA executed CBA as well as the personally signed contract of Tom Brady in which he "contracts" to (i) cooperate with investigations and (ii) not to do "anything detrimental to the public image" of the NFL, the process and power are well-defined and specifically require no more than circumstantial evidence. This is not a trial. This is not a felony or a misdemeanor. This is NLRB approved BINDING arbitration.
See next section.
QED
Everything else is BS. I have always said I have very little respect for Goodell. Not one of my comments says that Goodell is "right".
What I have argued is that Brady has no legal leg to stand on and will lose in court if the court rules at all. Goodell repoortedly already offered a one game suspension if Brady were to admit his role. Perhaps Goodell will let Brady go with a plea of nolo contendere and let him off with a 1 or 2 game suspension.
No kidding! But Goodell is the "Supreme Leader" who was bargained for by the NFLPA and approved repeatedly by the NLRB.
Thank you!!!
But they do have a standard --- well reasoned, precedented and explained.
The rule was broken giving the Patriots an unfair competitive advantage.
The precedent cited was drug abuse --- which does not give a team an "unfair competitive advantage".
Hence Four Games.
In addition to that clip --- which I have not seen ---- I heard Brady at a press conference say (as did almost ALL quarterbacks asked) that he prefers lower PSI. If he says it to the press there is little doubt in my mind that he probably also expressed the same preference ---probably in firmer terms ---- to , as you say, "Dumb and Dumber". That, in itself, is not wrong ---- as long as he went no farther. But almost everyone I know has been in a face-to-face meeting with a superior when the leader made it clear with context and body language that the specific words he was speaking were only for show.
LOL! He specifically gave "Dumber" two autographed game-worn jerseys just before the AFCCG right after "Dumber" told "Dumb" that "he" would really owe the "Deflator" for this one. In the NLRB approved NFLPA bargained-for CBA "preponderance" is all required, as you admit.
Right! If you and I had been in collusion and yet had avoided talking directly for six-months and THEN as soon as the brown-stuff hits the fan I call you for 25 minutes and text you a dozen times and set up an unprecedented private meeting in the QB room and then protested that it was merely to remind you that I would STILL like 12.5 PSI in the Super Bowl which was not to be played for an entire fortnight in the future! Is that not suspicious to the "public" perception?
Who cares! Circumstantial evidence trumps illogical assertions when the "crime" is hurting the public rep.
Did I say it was NFLPA bargained for, NLRB approved and contracted by Brady himself?
A Princeton scientist lauded the consultant report's analysis and its conclusion.
Right! I never met a gen-Xer who would lie to help himself.
Read Brady's words. The are always very carefully chosen to limit there implications to the "specific" illegal words. Look at his statement on the texts on his phone. He specifically said that he had never TEXTED anything about deflation. He specifically did NOT say that he never RECEIVED any such text. Very well coached.
To attack his accuser --- sleazy though he is ---- is a message board ad hominem defense not a contract fulfillment defense.
See my original link to ESPN legal reporter with NLRB experience.
Did we not agree that the standard is no more than "preponderance"?
If Goodell were before binding arbitration then it would matter, but.......
Sorry, but I see NO evidence --- circumstantial or otherwise ---- to support your characterization of 69 in this thread.
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Anywhere the Wells Report or Goodell’s appeal decision is cited or used in any way. They and this entire sham of a process are mischaraterization, misinformation, obfuscation, deceit, leaks, incompetence, and lies. This is not an accusation of you, but of anything and everything Goodell had to do with. A man and an operation that will do anything and everything to get it’s way can’t be trusted. This ain’t our first rodeo with Rog.
http://cdnapi.kaltura.com/index.php...id/26963431/entry_id/1_1p4mp7gm/embed/dynamic
That perception is rapidly changing. He still may lose, but it’s not a slam dunk.
Meh… Reasoned, precedented, and explained by Goodell (Pash really). Unprecedented punishment is what Roger does best. Actually, lying is what he does best. Last season Carolina and Minnesota warmed footballs with heaters on a cold day. They got warnings. San Diego was fined $20K for wiping game balls down with towels that had a tacky substance on them in 2012. There are well defined penalties for player violations such as being caught using stickum. Didn’t the Colts play with at least some balls (75% tested) that were below 12.5 PSI, thus giving them the same competitive advantage? Being they had no adequate system for testing PSI and didn’t know science was a thing, how do we even know who or when this bogus advantage has been received? Also, drug abuse violations have something this does not – real evidence in the form of a positive test!
This ain’t damning evidence…or evidence at all. It’s guesswork. Goodell would use it though.
Do not source Goodell’s appeal decision on this. He blatantly mischaracterizes this conversation even though Brady’s testimony states they spoke about the investigation and the Superbowl prep in their conversations following the AFC. Just Rog being Rog. The frequency or nature of the conversations isn’t peculiar. Mike Kensil ran up to a Patriots equipment employee and said we weighed the balls “you guys are f#&^ed”. They find out something’s up with PSI in the balls. There’s going to be an immediate conversation about that innocent or guilty. The next day the NFL informs (lies) to the Patriots and tells them the balls were significantly under 12.5 PSI. Innocent or guilty, that’s going to create a good deal of conversation between the QB and the guy that handles his footballs. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.
The public seems to care now. They care when those conclusions are reached through a dishonest process and all the while Roger Goodell is saying things like independent, integrity, I kick puppies into a woodchipper for fun. Ok, he didn’t say that last part. He inferred it though.
And a Nobel Laureate scientist criticized it. Oh, so did just about the rest of the independent (true meaning, not Roger’s) science community. Exponent is pay for play. It’s well documented. Not good enough? Roger Goodell is involved.
LOL! I’ll get those damn kids off of your lawn immediately.
That Cossack piece is reads like a fawning school girl wrote it about her crush. Since the appeal transcripts have been released, it’s not the slam dunk Cossack makes it out to be. No wonder why the NFL didn’t want them released. Also, the NFL may have shot themselves in the foot (shocking, I know) in their rush to have case in NY. I’ll link it later if I have time. I’m doing this from the beach on an iPad. If I don’t link it later, assume Roger Goodell has had me murdered.
Oh, Goodell’s actions may very well matter. All depends on how Judge Berman sees it. And since Rog likes to play letter of the law, he'd better hope those 32 owners forget about this:
Article VIII in the Constitution and Bylaws of the NFL is titled, “Commissioner.” The first line reads: “The league shall select and employ a person of unquestioned integrity to serve as Commissioner…” Oops!
I’ve never met a babyboomer (insert snarky remark here).
Some interesting legal reads on this. They also lead to others I’ve failed to mention here.
@StephStradley
@WALLACHLEGAL
@ProFootballTalk (Seek Mike Florio)
@McCannSportsLaw
@SportsLawGuy
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anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
Stevie - without getting too far into the weeds with deflate-gate would you admit the patriots have been playing fast and loose with rules for a while now?
Yes, just like the other 31 teams in the league. Probably on every snap. Just a few off the top of the noggin: Stickum, silicone on jerseys, other foreign substance shenanigans, stolen playbooks/gameplans, faking injuries, football manipulation, piping crow noise through PA, curiously timed communication (headset) failures, roster/IR/injury disclosure, salary cap, tampering (rampant). I think some team once paid for a tape of an opposing QB's audibles.
They all push the envelope and accuse each other of the very same things they themselves do. There is an accepted gray area and it can be difficult to police. Nobody cares when the team doing it sucks. The Patriots...? It becomes fodder for haters and the uniformed. Are you familiar with Focc'em's Razor? It's an offshoot of Occam's Razor and utilized in sports and (especially) political conversation. It states: When discussing the opposition, the most dismissive and most misinformed theory is preferred. Because why be objective...focc'em!
I think you used it here:
Spygate is poorly named. Filming from the wrong spot gate and difference in interpretation of the rule gate don't exactly roll off the tongue. Videotaping a team's defensive signals is not illegal today. You have to do it from an approved location. Stealing signals is not illegal. You may hire a lip reader and have him/her on your sideline or anywhere else if you wish. That's what you see coaches frequently covering up their mouths when using comms. Prior to 2006 you could video tape the opposition's signals from your sideline. In 2006 they changed the rule to disallow that taping from anywhere other than approved locations. You can still tape, but only from approved locations. The sideline/field was off limits and still is today. The Patriots continued to do it, because Belichick interpreted the rule literally. The rule stated "for use during game play". Well, he wasn't using the tape during the game, so he kept doing it. He and Goodell got into a pissing match over the interpretation of the rule and Rog hit'em with the penalty. Belichick should have asked for clarification. That's pretty much it. The Jets filmed from the field during the 2006 season and Eric Mangini received a hug I think. No penalty. There was no filming of practices. In 2008 (I think) Boston Herald ran a story about the Patriots filming the Rams walk-through prior to the Superbowl they played. The story was quickly retracted and rebuffed, but the myth lives on. Perception becomes reality.
I'll use Focc'em to dismiss the Giants SB wins .
2011 - The SB Wes Welker literally handed, er dropped in NYG's lap.
2007 - The SB Asante Samuel also " " " " " ".
1990 - The SB Scott Norwood wide righted to NYG.
1986 - The SB John Elway tossed to NYG by throwing 6 interceptions.
The last one isn't even remotely true, but...focc'em!
Right...focc'em!
Everybody is doing it is not a response from the Patriots or even a refrain I'm seeing from Pats fans. Most of them are going with the Framegate theme. That's a little strong for me. I'll stick with Shady-Railroad Gate. Tom/Pats are shady and the NFL railroaded him. The gray area I wrote of is a fact of the game. I stated it in response to a specific question. It was not offered as an excuse. That is a fact, though. If you don't know or care to know, that's your choice. If you ever have the opportunity to speak with someone who plays/played or coaches/coached in the league, I recommend you ask them. It's also well documented if you care to do some simple research. If you don't care, that's also your choice. I find your view as simplistic and slanted as those who believe 100% Brady/Patriots didn't do it. Why bother, right? Focc'em!
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/brady-...ains--nfl-isn-t-fighting-fair--062446546.html
As Brady-NFL settlement talks begin, unsettling picture continues to emerge on league's conduct
By Dan Wetzel
Yahoo Sports
Roger Goodell and Tom Brady are scheduled to meet Wednesday for a mediation session in federal court in Manhattan.
Brady should take the opportunity to make the first settlement offer: a zero-game suspension, no fine, full exoneration and a public apology from the commissioner for completely misrepresenting Brady's under oath testimony and then somehow using it to declare Brady untrustworthy.
Goodell won't go for that, of course. That's the point. If the actions of the league office from the start have told us anything, it's that the NFL isn't going to go for any deal, so why pretend otherwise?
The good part of this getting to federal court is that it is no longer about whether or not the footballs were deflated at the AFC championship game and, if they were, whether Brady knew about it.
Everyone can believe whatever it is they choose.
This is now all about how the case has pulled the curtain back on the NFL's disciplinary process. The more light that gets into the crevices of the procedure and the practices used to prop it up, the better.
Even if you suspect Brady is as guilty as sin there is no denying the NFL had a profoundly weak case here.
The proof is that the NFL felt compelled to state Brady said the exact opposite of what he actually said, not correct false media stories, hire a non-independent/independent investigator, ignore overwhelming scientific conclusions and even change the verdict after the verdict was rendered – in May, the NFL claimed it was "more probable than not" that Brady was "generally aware" of the deflation; in the July appeal decision, Goodell significantly upped that and despite a lack of additional evidence suddenly claimed Brady "approved of, consented to, and provided inducements and rewards in support of a scheme."
If this was a fair and strong investigation, then none of that is needed. If Ted Wells did a good job, then he could've stood on his own. Instead you have a case that can be perhaps best defined by bookend media reports, each false and each extremely prejudicial to Brady and the Patriots.
The first came in January via ESPN that 11 of 12 footballs were deflated by more than 2 pounds per square inch, which turned a curiosity into a tidal wave of controversy. The last came in July, via NFL.com, that Brady and the NFLPA sought to have a transcript of his appeals hearing sealed, which was "interpreted by those on the league side as an attempt to keep the destruction of the cellphone from ever becoming public, because Brady's representatives surely knew how dubious that decision would look."
It was like Brady was trying to cover up a cover-up and thus was a no-good, guilty, low-life.
The actual measurements of the footballs proved the "11 of 12 story" to be thoroughly wrong. Meanwhile, thanks to the federal court, a release of the appeals transcript revealed that during the appeal, NFLPA lawyer Jeffrey Kessler specifically sought to have the transcript released publicly in an effort at "transparency." The NFL rebuffed his request.
So, actually, Brady wasn't trying to hide his actions.
Even if the Pats are guilty, this should've been treated as more misdemeanor than felony.
Consider, as ProFootballTalk.com pointed out, the penalty for a player who is caught with "stick 'em" on his gloves. This practice would be employed to gain extra grip on the ball, fairly akin to deflating a ball. Under the collective bargaining agreement, a guilty player would be fined $8,681.
That's it, eight grand.
Get caught a second time and it's $17,363.
Because no one ever cared about the inflation levels of footballs, there is no specific punishment for being "generally aware" of a possibly underinflated football.
Thus Goodell was allowed to jump from an $8,681 fine all the way to declaring Brady guilty of "conduct detrimental to the integrity of … the game of professional football" which meant a quarter of the season suspension (plus hitting the Patriots for a million bucks and a first- and fourth-round draft pick).
Really? After eight months and no concrete proof there was no middle ground there?
The longer this continues, the greater the chance more testimony or emails or documents emerge. That's the hope; at least for anyone who realizes the NFL's conduct in this matter is way more interesting than what the Deflator did in the bathroom.
The league certainly won all the early public-relation wars. Brady and the Patriots were put through a meat grinder, in part because they were far too naïve and trusting. They couldn't imagine that pleas to correct false stories wouldn't be answered (Goodell, on Wednesday, somehow blamed Wells for this). They couldn't envision Wells telling Brady he didn't need his cell phone and then Goodell punishing Brady for not giving Wells his cell phone. They couldn't foresee a lot of stuff.
"This was never about what was fair and just," Kraft said. "I was wrong to put my faith in the league."
Fans were fed the most sensational stuff, regardless of truth or context, and, naturally, they believed it. Sorting through what are now approximately 1,000 pages of reports, testimony, documents and scientific exhibits is complicated and consuming.
Here's guessing very few of the talking heads on cable television read all of this stuff. Actually, let's be honest and say not a single one did. Maybe one or two guys tried, unless you really can envision your favorite outraged ex-player staying up late pouring through the footnotes with a highlighter.
So, of course, the simple stuff was going to be seized on and repeated.
Only, eventually, because Brady has kept fighting, the cracks have become impossible to ignore. His appeal was a goldmine. Goodell brazenly misrepresenting testimony? A verdict being rewritten? False, anti-Brady stories still mysteriously finding their way to publication?
If a settlement is reached, if Brady, for the good of the Patriots' season, agrees to a game or two suspension, then this grinds to a conclusion and additional information may never emerge.
So here's hoping Tom Brady does no mediating on Wednesday.
Here's hoping he takes a hard line, takes it to the wall, takes it to federal court and then a civil one via a defamation charge, because no matter where you stand on guilt or innocence, after all these months, we're finally getting to the real stuff.
We're finally getting to the good stuff.
Did you just take scatter shots at a point or two and then walk away....in the intellectually dishonest manner? I'll say this about this whole situation... No one is coming out clean. There will be no winners (only varying degrees of loser) and that is deserved. If you choose to swim in muddy waters, don't come complaining if you drown in them. Bunch of jackasses. This is in federal court?
I said earlier that the NFL (Goodell) is also an A-Hole for how they've handled this and other issues. At the end of the day this is just sports. I'm not going to have any regards for those that break the rules and arrogantly flaunt it (see any Patriot presser). The competitiveness and integrity of the game still mean something. Screw Brady, A-Rod, Rose and Armstrong...not the guys I feel like cheering for...its just a sport.
IMHO, to anyone familiar with Nova and Porter my response needed no explanation of its cogency. Porter signed with an agent but not an NBA team before the NCAAs. It did not affect competitive advantage in the games. The NCAA voided Nova's wins. Why? Because the rules were broken.
As everyone's mother probably said at one time, "if everybody else jumped off a bridge would it make it OK for you to?"
The "offense" here is "detracting from public opinion of the game?"
Everyone now has a lower opinion of the NFL.
QED
Be satisfied the NFL does NOT act like the NCAA and void all the Pats' supposed championships!
Well said. Brady obviously cheated and then did not cooperate. Goodell probable overstepped but he is trying to get his reputation back and keep his cushy overpaid job.The league does not have the real proof.
But the real culprit is how stupid their handling of game balls was leading up to this coddling the already coddled NFL QBs and kickers. Idiotic really. And why is a US Federal Court even wasting time on this issue is right.
My guess is that they'll negotiate down to a two games suspension, and that Brady will never admit to any wrong doing.
He's a great quarterback, but i've lost a lot of respect for him through the years.
He's a great quarterback, but i've lost a lot of respect for him through the years.
Destroy a computer, yes. Destroy a cell phone? I have never heard of such a thing. Cell phones are usually wiped clean and then either given or sold to someone else
Ever hear of removing the Sim card? i usually pass on my older cell phones to my wife. LOL
Stevie H, I had criticized your scatter-shot reply to Old Alum but you followed with a very detailed response and I salute you for it. It'll be interesting to see how this thing ends up. For the record, I despise Goodell and --while I acknowledge Brady's football greatness-- I find him to be a major a-hole. His personal conduct in this entire episode has simply reinforced my opinion of him.
I'm well aware of your reference. I've been very clear on my statement to teams cheating in response to a direct question. If people choose to misconstrue it, so be it. I can only explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.
LOL! Based on what grounds?
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anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
So one other team in recent memory was caught "cheating", and how did they react? They admitted it and expressed remorse. Edit: 2 teams. Forgot about bountygate
Does Goodell destroying the tapes not suggest there was something seriously damaging to the league's reputation on them? And why did Brady destroy his cell phone again?
I can't even remember what we're debating anymore. He cheated. Got caught. I don't think the NFL has subpoena rights over his phone. I do think he deserves a suspension. I do think 4 games was probably overreaching.
Focc'em
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I haven't been involved in this debate at all but it seems to me the Federal Judge hearing this matter is sending a clear message to Brady, Goodell and the NFL and that is that if they don't settle none of the parties are going to be happy with his ruling and that his opinion will contain some very harsh comments about all the parties and their conduct.
I would be surprised if they settled. Seems like both sides have hunkered down.
Obviously the penalty is way too harsh for the crime committed. And yes I do think Brady was complicit.
But if he cooperated maybe his ego/legacy might have taken a very small hit and he would have gotten off with a fine. But clearly that didn't happen and he will (IMO) pay more for his lack of cooperation than what actually happened behind closed doors.
Obviously the penalty is way too harsh for the crime committed. And yes I do think Brady was complicit.
But if he cooperated maybe his ego/legacy might have taken a very small hit and he would have gotten off with a fine. But clearly that didn't happen and he will (IMO) pay more for his lack of cooperation than what actually happened behind closed doors.
No offense, but I've seen your memory and/or knowledge reflected in this thread and I recommend raising the bar if you're trying to support a point. Facts would be more effective.
I am thoroughly amused by some of the responses in this thread. Focc'em's Razor in full effect. The NFL has a documented recent history of boldface lying, hilarious levels of incompetence, obfuscation, conducting fake independent investigations, and leaking damaging false information to deceive the public. That same league does all of the above and came to the (original) conclusion (before they changed it for posturing and legal purposes) that Brady was "more probable than not generally aware" of an intentional rule violation. That is a timid verdict based on incidental evidence in the complete absence of any direct evidence that the game balls were actually artificially deflated, let alone Brady's involvement. Yet, many here are 100% convinced Brady cheated. If one applied ruthless rationalism and objectivity while considering all of the information available, I don't see how one can come to any black and white conclusion on whether Brady cheated or not. Either reality is possible. I wonder what the consensus on the Boston College message board is? I don't think I have to guess. One of the many fascinating layers to this circus is the fan/public response. It's a smorgasbord of cognitive bias.
Steve, maybe a better gauge might be the survey reported by ESPN of NFL players. A strong majority do believe (as do I) that Brady was complicit. But those same players don't think it's that big of a deal and that it probably happens throughout the NFL.
That's how I feel as well and believe the overblown penalty is a result of two things.
1. Goodell wanting to show minorities and lesser skilled players he punishes equally
and
2. Brady's unwillingness to cooperate when the subject was first broached.
That's how I feel as well and believe the overblown penalty is a result of two things.
1. Goodell wanting to show minorities and lesser skilled players he punishes equally
and
2. Brady's unwillingness to cooperate when the subject was first broached.
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
Oh, none taken. I've begun to tune the NFL out in recent years for different reasons so haven't read every article ever written about the different cheating incidents throughout the history of the NFL and had time to write a dissertation in this thread about it. My original point was that the Pats have a history of cheating and then lying about it. You realize you're the only one who is arguing your side, and you just happen to be a Pats fan....hmmm.
Nobody asked you to. You choose to offer your opinions and clearly lacked some basic knowledge on the subject. I pointed it out. Nobody forced you to chime in.
Once again, you are factually inaccurate. There is a history. Spygate. There was no lying whatsoever. You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts. Don't worry, no homework will be assigned.
I've been more than rational and objective here. Within this thread I have called the actions of Brady and the equipment dorks suspicious. I have refused to proclaim his outright innocence and questioned those who choose to do so. I've referred to the damage done to Brady's reputation and called it earned. I'm looking at every angle. I'm biased, because I correct your misinformation? Sure.
