In that case go look up Robert E Lee. There are early memoirs which he wrote that succession from the nation would be an insult to the founding fathers. I guess he and Jefferson are a good comparison. They both had good intentions initially.
Charlottesville
- Thread starter donnie_baseball
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Seriously. Lee was a traitor. He led the southern rebellion. There is no comparison. The comparable historical figure is Benedict Arnold. Both of their betrayals to the country is what they should remembered for.
Seriously Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves. I can't believe you can accept that as okay because of the times. Lee did his thing because it was going on at the time. Go learn more about Lee. He wasn't a completely terrible person. He and his family funded slaves back to Liberia. They set up schools for slaves to learn. I'm not saying fighting for the Confederacy was a good thing, but I'm not judging based on 1 aspect of a persons life.
This.
Also, ignoring Jefferson's slave-owning history defies the logic of the radical left these days, which says anything relating to the Confederacy or slavery must be whitewashed or destroyed.
Ok, go hang your Confederate flag and Robert E Lee poster and I'll hang up the Star & Stripes and a Thomas Jefferson poster.
Being a traitor to the country trumps all. Forgive the pun.
No one says history must be white washed or destroyed. We remember what it was just like we we also remember what happened in Germany in WW2. Nothing is being whitewashed. It has always been in the light. But also criticized and fought against.
Your false equivalency of Jefferson and Lee is so intellectually dishonest.
That is not what I said at all. And for the record being a traitor to God trumps all.
Look what you, yourself, have done to history. Branded Lee a "traitor" several times on this thread, while acknowledging, uh, that he wasn't charged, convicted, or hanged. As someone else suggested, perhaps do some reading outside of your law journals, on Lee and Arnold (I recommend "Rabble in Arms"), and realize that they are more complex characters than you give them credit for. You are an attorney, correct? Do you persist in labeling defendants as criminals after they have been exonerated? That's slander, right?
And for the record do you think that Trump is or is not a traitor to God
Hmm,OJ was aquitted of murder. He is still a murderer is t he? It's not slander calling him that is there? And if a person was proven as being innocent then he never did what he was accused of doing. This is not the case of Robert E Lee.
When you rebel against the country and fight against the country, you are a traitor. Just because a political decision was made on behalf of Lee does not make it any less true. Did he take up arms against the United States of America? Answer yes. Thus the answer to the question of whether he was a traitor is also yes.
Whether he was a complex man is irrelavent to the question of he was a traitor. Do not use exonerated criminals as some kind of equivalent to whether or not Lee was a traitor. He was. Andrew Johnson wanted him charged as a traitor. It was a political decision not to.
Hitler was a very complex character as well. Was he not a mass murderer?
That is for God to decide not me.
For the record do you think Malcolm X's statues should be taken down? He preached the white man is the enemy to all. It's not a proud moment for peace amongst races however it is a part of our past and I hope the statue stays up, so the kids of today, their kids, their kid's kids, have the opportunity to learn about the good and bad of our past. I have the same feelings about Lee.
OJ actually lost the civil trial, so calling him a murderer is not beyond the pale. Hitler was a mass murderer, did he capitulate, and then help with the rebuilding of Europe? Lee was a key figure in the restoration, and died a well-respected man, by all accounts. Again, never charged, never tried, never convicted.
Btw, you recommended a historical fiction book to learn about history. The key word being fiction.
Those statements demonstrate an utter lack of knowledge, comprehension, or understanding of Lee, Arnold, or treason. The two situations are vastly different.
The first sentence is true. The second is YOUR opinion.
Robert's Trilogy on the revolutionary war contains nonfictional and fictional characters. Arnold is one of the nonfictional characters. There are ample and well researched facts in his works to provide a decent perspective on Arnold. Had you at least read that and been able to discern the facts from the fictional characters you would not have made your statements.
Having said that, I would never rely on a single source. Roberts account of Arnold is corroborated by other pure non-fictional works.
Rose's book on Washington's spies has a decent bit about Arnold. https://goo.gl/6E463x
I went to my local library and they file Rabble in Arms under the following categories - Fiction, Historical Fiction, History, War Fiction.
Just looking at the hits, I realized the Civil War was a pretty big deal. There are a ton of books! Can anyone recommend another one?
Just looking at the hits, I realized the Civil War was a pretty big deal. There are a ton of books! Can anyone recommend another one?
KnowKnow, Rabble is about the Revolutionary War.
With regard to the Civil War, here is trilogy of Historical Fiction that is worth reading. Killer Angels won a Pulitzer and is cited as providing more information than some Non-Fiction books. Killer is more about Gettysburg but include other aspects.
https://goo.gl/7fm2iZ
Piecing together the full time line of the events leading up to the war, the war, and the reconstruction would take a good effort.
Wikipedia is not a bad place to start. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
After the initial article, if a particular battle interests you, there individual articles are quite good.
Grants Memoirs are a very long read but cover alot from a guy who did alot.. They can be had cheaply.
Free in PDF Form. $0.99 on the Kindle.
https://goo.gl/FwaJR9
Another excellent book is Grant's Final Victory. It is more about his final year of life and how he died while writing his memoirs. It would be a good introduction to him before you read the memoirs.
https://goo.gl/2bgLAK
Here are some non-Fiction books. Hallowed Ground gives a complete account of the War. It is from the Union perspective and so you need to temper that.
https://www.bustle.com/articles/158...ivil-war-that-will-fascinate-any-history-buff
If you can get to Gettysburg, the visitor center is replete with books. The Museum is excellent and thorough and presents both sides. The film they show is a great intro to the War. The battlefield is an experience to remember.
I once took a Civil War walking tour in Charleston. That was a very informative tour about the South Carolina Secession and the ensuing bombardment of Sumter. Interesting to do it at Ground Zero.
Note:
Revolutionary War Deaths: 8,000 combat; 25,000 total (Disease and POW deaths)
Civil War Deaths: 215,000 combat; approx 750,000 total.
With regard to the Civil War, here is trilogy of Historical Fiction that is worth reading. Killer Angels won a Pulitzer and is cited as providing more information than some Non-Fiction books. Killer is more about Gettysburg but include other aspects.
https://goo.gl/7fm2iZ
Piecing together the full time line of the events leading up to the war, the war, and the reconstruction would take a good effort.
Wikipedia is not a bad place to start. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
After the initial article, if a particular battle interests you, there individual articles are quite good.
Grants Memoirs are a very long read but cover alot from a guy who did alot.. They can be had cheaply.
Free in PDF Form. $0.99 on the Kindle.
https://goo.gl/FwaJR9
Another excellent book is Grant's Final Victory. It is more about his final year of life and how he died while writing his memoirs. It would be a good introduction to him before you read the memoirs.
https://goo.gl/2bgLAK
Here are some non-Fiction books. Hallowed Ground gives a complete account of the War. It is from the Union perspective and so you need to temper that.
https://www.bustle.com/articles/158...ivil-war-that-will-fascinate-any-history-buff
If you can get to Gettysburg, the visitor center is replete with books. The Museum is excellent and thorough and presents both sides. The film they show is a great intro to the War. The battlefield is an experience to remember.
I once took a Civil War walking tour in Charleston. That was a very informative tour about the South Carolina Secession and the ensuing bombardment of Sumter. Interesting to do it at Ground Zero.
Note:
Revolutionary War Deaths: 8,000 combat; 25,000 total (Disease and POW deaths)
Civil War Deaths: 215,000 combat; approx 750,000 total.
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Trump says that there were "good people" in that Nazi, KKK march, but I ask you: if your only concern was the removal of a historic statute and you see that the other marchers were carrying KKK flags, Nazi flags as well as clubs, bats and chains what would you do? I'd say anyone with good intentions would get the hell away from the others as fast as possible.
Tom K
Tom K
And so if there were and they did not get the hell away, then Trumps's statement is true?
Regardless, among Trump's many flaws is that he refuses to listen to his communication team and he goes ad lib on matters that require precise wording. For the country's sake, we needed him to make an announcement sitting behind the desk in the oval office and that announcement should have been scripted, proofed, rewritten, proofed, etc.
Even if Mother Teresa were marching with the "down the statue" team, Trump needed to denounce them.
At our company we often use the phase, "We want to be right but we don't want to be dead right".
For arguments sake, let's concede that there were "fine people" in the KKK crowd at some point. Therefore in his statements he is right, but he is DEAD right and as a result, the country is in turmoil.
Just now seeing the DOW dropped 274 points. Beautiful.
So now do we have a lame duck president 7 months into his term.
Will we get Tax Reform?
Will l we get ACA ironed out?
Will we get an Energy Policy?
Well we secure the border?
Nothing will get done for who knows how long.
The gloating on the left will be a short lived joy.
I was never attached to Trump the person, just Trump's agenda. If he goes down, I care little about him and more about what will not get done.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/read...erate-civil-war-memorials-20170515-story.html
Fascinating Robert E Lee's view about having monuments built.
Fascinating Robert E Lee's view about having monuments built.
It's a good point not to mention that the equally evil, violent Antifa were bearing down on them. The good people on both sides would have long been gone.
Both sides are equally abhorrent, evil and violent; both revere disgusting historical human beings; both wanted blood in the streets and they got it.
That was another thread that you started that was not worth a discussion. Not this one. Pay attention.
I don't know much about the anti-fascists groups. I know I don't like their protests, i.e. in Berkeley that caused a lot of property damage in trying to silence Milo. I am not a believer of that type of behavior.
However, you are equating anti fascists with Nazis and KKK. This is an absolute false equivalency. How many people with the Antifa have to kill to be equal to the Nazis? I am not sure if they have killed any? But certainly not equal.
However, more importantly, the protestors were all KKK, Nazis or white nationalists. The claim by Trump that there were "peaceful protestors " was a lie when they were all carrying torches and chanting Nazi slogans. Who was murdered there? A woman from the anti protestor side.
Contrast that with the the anti protestors were which were not all antifa but a small segment of that group. There is no equal behavior on both sides. There is no equal evil to the KKK and Hitler. Perhaps you can educate me of the atrocities that Antifa has committed that are equal to starting a World War and killing tens of millions of people?
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New Jersey Office of Homeland Security and Preparedness has labeled Antifa as terrorists.
https://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifahttps://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifa
https://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifahttps://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifa
For 71 years there has only been one item on Donald Trump's agenda - Donald Trump. To have thought otherwise was a misreading of the situation
That could be said about a lot of major politicians. How do so many politicians walk away from politics wealthy? They take care of the lobbyists and the special interest groups who in turn take care of them. At least Trump didn't take an oath to serve others the first 70 years. To call out Trump and ignore the others is ignorant.
So we agree. Donald Trump is a politician, one of many. People who believed in his agenda misread the situation.
No we definitely disagree. I have no issue with someone not taking an oath to serve others being about himself or herself. Why you chose to call out one person who has been An elected official who has taken an oath for 7 months and ignore the hundreds of people who have been doing it for years is beyond me. You are finding the sawdust in Trumps eye but ignoring the plank in other elected officials.
The person being discussed happens to be the current President of the United States. We are not discussing those hundreds of other people. People who attached themselves to his agenda misread the situation.
I apologize; I should not have used 71 years. Candidate Trump was one of the most recognizable personalities on the planet. I think it is fair to say he has been in the public eye for 35 years. People who attached themselves to his agenda misread 35 years of clues.
I'll agree to disagree. What he did in the public eye was all about his brand and making money. I know some ruthless, scumbags when it comes to business. Take them out of the business environment they'll give the shirt off their back and do a ton for others. Just like athletes have a different mindset on the field or on the court as opposed to off it, many business people are the same way. To act like you know the real Trump because of what he's done in the public to make money, I think is ridiculous. However nobody is talking about the amount of new jobs, lower unemployment rate, and the fact that a statue is a bigger deal than a wacko testing missiles that can reach America because he's been able to diffuse that situation for now.
ur right. My mistake.
However when I went back to see if you discussed the Robert E Lee quote or article it was not posted. Anyway here is the quote by Lee concerning the building of monuments.
“I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered,”
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I agree. The president's tough talk changed the dynamic with North Korea. It was something they had never heard from the Americans before and didn't want to press their luck. They blinked.
What a complete load of crap, you are stuck in the womb of MSNBC and CNN. The number of Antifa was just as big and just as loaded for violence.
You are too funny/phony. The neo-nazis revere Hitler; the Antifa reveres Castro, Chavez, Guevara, Shabazz, Mandela, Mao, and Stalin, all equally horrific domestic terrorists with collectively a body count 10 times Hitler's.
As per SnakeTom's post above, if these anti-protestors were so peace loving, why didn't they turn tail when they saw all their fellow comrades loaded and primed for violence?
This is a culture war both sides deserve to lose and their supporters doomed to hell with all those they admire.
Seriously. One of the better posts I've ever seen on this board. Said it better than anyone else could have. Send it to the president.
I do not buy your argument nor do I buy the Presidents assertion that there were "good people" marching with the KKK & Nazi's. First of all virtually everyone knew who was sponsoring this demonstration but even if you didn't when you arrived on Friday night before the counter demonstrators were there and saw the KKK & Nazi flags, the weapons and heard the anti Semitic chants as the march started you certainly knew then.
In life we have choices to make and anyone who chose to return Saturday decided that they were part of this group and were just as evil as the others were. As your hero Newt Gingrich said "good people do not march with the Nazi's". The President was way off base in declaring his concern for those "good people" who partook in this march with those who represent pure evil. You can not equate those who stand up to show their opposition to evil with those who brought it with them.
Tom K
Yup. You are so right. Heather Heyer was just some anarchist Anitifa member out for blood. I didn't see them chant Stalin sayings, signs nor did I see the hammer and sickle or any other communist symbol that you reference. The only people I saw in any of those videos were Nazi saluting swaztika wearing neo nazis.
Lots of people got hurt who were not members of any radical group. They were just against neo nazis and kkk and white supremacists Shame you don't know what the right side is. Clearly you are not part of the greatest generation. You want to label all the counter protestors antifa because it suits your agenda. But the fact of the matter it's not true. The Antifa are easy to spot dressed all in black. And yes as I said before I do not support them. However, the vast majority were not.
Let's see McCain, Lindsay graham, JOHN Kasich, both GH Bush and GW Bush and Mitt Romney, Marco Rubio can all condemn the neo nazis and the KKK and say there was only one side that was the cause of the violence. All of them are against people like you and Trump who want to apportion blame when blame lies solely with the Neo Nazis
, the KKk and the white supremacists. Or are they stuck in the wound of CNN and MSNBC?
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