Charlottesville

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

Since when do you need a permit to stand up and oppose evil. That was just another bogus argument throw out by the President. Gee, maybe the Germans would have stood up to Hitler in the 1930's if they only had a permit.

Tom K

Or maybe the situation never escalates if "peaceful" counter protesters didnt show up?

Since when do you need a permit to stand up and oppose evil. That was just another bogus argument throw out by the President. Gee, maybe the Germans would have stood up to Hitler in the 1930's if they only had a permit.

Tom K

Evil on both sides. It is not ok to do what these Neos are promoting, just as its not ok to loot property, riot, call for cop killings based on lies perpetuated by CNN, MSNBC, Google and every other main stream outlet. The level of morality is irrelevant because they're both horribly wrong.

If you want to equate things to Germany than focus on Syria.

 

[Section112]

Here's why Trump is such a stupid ass IMO regarding this horrible situation.

What happened in Charlottesville was 1000% wrong. You cannot ever give the white supremacists, nazis et al a millimeter of approval and that is exactly what he did with his wishy washy statements. I don't care who you support, wrong is wrong. Even if he thought or knew the Antifa stirred up trouble, the fact remains that the white supremacists/nazis are more emboldened now than they have been in a long time. He gets briefings he should know that.

If I'm President I come out clearly and strongly against the white supremacists and nazi's - once and right from the start. Be absolutely clear in saying the dude who ran over the crowd will be brought to justice and America will not tolerate this kind of hate. I also say how sorry I am that the lives of the lady who was run over by the car and police officers killed in the copter crash are horrible and their lives were not lost in vain and they stood up to hate and protected America.

Then behind the scenes I use the office of the President. I go and ask my attorney general to make sure the dude in the car is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And I also go and talk to the attorney general and FBI and have them (if they are not already) do a full investigation of both the Nazi/white supremacists AND Antifa and get to the bottom of what they are doing. If anything comes of it I have them do the dirty work and cause lots of trouble for the nazis and Antifa and go after them separately. If I want to manage the MSM I am not compromising one bit on letting any hate group off the hook. If I also gather steam against Antifa I leak some bad info about them and make sure the timing is in line with action from the FBI and attorney general. But again I do that separately. That is what a President should do. You lead by being crystal clear and not allowing any hate group any leeway at all.

He can't leave office fast enough for me and he has no idea how to use his office or counter/manage the MSM. He just makes everything worse.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

Here's why Trump is such a stupid ass IMO regarding this horrible situation.

What happened in Charlottesville was 1000% wrong. You cannot ever give the white supremacists, nazis et al a millimeter of approval and that is exactly what he did with his wishy washy statements. I don't care who you support, wrong is wrong. Even if he thought or knew the Antifa stirred up trouble, the fact remains that the white supremacists/nazis are more emboldened now than they have been in a long time. He gets briefings he should know that.

If I'm President I come out clearly and strongly against the white supremacists and nazi's - once and right from the start. Be absolutely clear in saying the dude who ran over the crowd will be brought to justice and America will not tolerate this kind of hate. I also say how sorry I am that the lives of the lady who was run over by the car and police officers killed in the copter crash are horrible and their lives were not lost in vain and they stood up to hate and protected America.

Then behind the scenes I use the office of the President. I go and ask my attorney general to make sure the dude in the car is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And I also go and talk to the attorney general and FBI and have them (if they are not already) do a full investigation of both the Nazi/white supremacists AND Antifa and get to the bottom of what they are doing. If anything comes of it I have them do the dirty work and cause lots of trouble for the nazis and Antifa and go after them separately. If I want to manage the MSM I am not compromising one bit on letting any hate group off the hook. If I also gather steam against Antifa I leak some bad info about them and make sure the timing is in line with action from the FBI and attorney general. But again I do that separately. That is what a President should do. You lead by being crystal clear and not allowing any hate group any leeway at all.

He can't leave office fast enough for me and he has no idea how to use his office or counter/manage the MSM. He just makes everything worse.

I think Trump has done alot of stupid stuff. He has allowed these things to overshadow his presidency, when he should be putting his focus into jobs and bringing some manufacturing back to the rust belt.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

He can't leave office fast enough for me and he has no idea how to use his office or counter/manage the MSM. He just makes everything worse.

Stop for 2 weeks there was this huge concern about North Korea. A serious issue with nuclear weapons was diffused. I guess he made that worse. The tons of new jobs we have, I guess he made that worse. The unemployment rate going down, I guess he made that worse. Definitely wrong to not call out the Neo-Nazi's, KKK, etc the 1st day. Definitely should have been done. He did it the very next press conference and it is seen as unacceptable. Obama could go years without calling out radical Islam, who is killing people every chance they get, and that was ok. Let's just be consistent on here, in the media, etc. Don't give Obama the pass and call out Trump. Call them both out. But they had years to call out Obama and never did. They set a terrible precedent and only call out things that fit their agenda. No attempt to be fair.

 

[shu09]

I think Trump has done alot of stupid stuff. He has allowed these things to overshadow his presidency, when he should be putting his focus into jobs and bringing some manufacturing back to the rust belt.

He's trying to do that (and shake up the DC establishment, which is a good thing IMO) but a better way to phrase this may be that he can't resist the urge to be controversial and keep his name in the press. I think that's more the case rather than he's "allowing" these distractions to overshadow his presidency, but that's certainly open to debate.

 

[knowknow456]

They set a terrible precedent and only call out things that fit their agenda. No attempt to be fair.

I think the phrase is Fair and balanced

 

[Pirata]

I denounce violence, but we fought Nazi's for a reason.

Just so we are clear, when we fought WWII we had very limited knowledge of the atrocities.

"On December 17, 1942, the Allies issued a proclamation condemning the "extermination" of the Jewish people in Europe and declared that they would punish the perpetrators. Notwithstanding this, it remains unclear to what extent Allied and neutral leaders understood the full import of their information. The utter shock of senior Allied commanders who liberated camps at the end of the war may indicate that this understanding was not complete."

We were fighting Hitler's expansionism. Is was not until after the war did we realize the full extent of the Nazi horrors.

I also do not understand why we limit our concerns to Nazis.

Nanking
Khmer Rouge
Rawanda
Bosnia
Dzungar

and on and on and on...........Google "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" and your eyes will be opened.

 

[Pirata]

There is "no moral equivalency between neo-Nazis and the KKK and anybody else” I am in full agreement with him.

I don't think anyone here is trying to equate Antifa and BLW with KKK and White Supremacists.

However, to not call out and denounce violent and criminal behavior because it is not as bad as the baddest is false logic.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

http://wtvr.com/2017/08/17/poll-confederate-statues-remain/

62% in favor of keeping statues up.

 

[Pirata]

Couldn't resist. And I still support the guy!

 

[Pirata]

FWIW, Lee's horse was named Traveller.

The horse is getting a bum deal!

 

[Section112]

Stop for 2 weeks there was this huge concern about North Korea. A serious issue with nuclear weapons was diffused. I guess he made that worse. The tons of new jobs we have, I guess he made that worse. The unemployment rate going down, I guess he made that worse. Definitely wrong to not call out the Neo-Nazi's, KKK, etc the 1st day. Definitely should have been done. He did it the very next press conference and it is seen as unacceptable. Obama could go years without calling out radical Islam, who is killing people every chance they get, and that was ok. Let's just be consistent on here, in the media, etc. Don't give Obama the pass and call out Trump. Call them both out. But they had years to call out Obama and never did. They set a terrible precedent and only call out things that fit their agenda. No attempt to be fair.

Wow talk about fairness? When did I say one word about Obama in my post??? You have no idea what I think of Obama but that had zero to do with my post. My post was fair and balanced and said my opinion on how I would have handled the Charlottesville situation in a Presidential way. Stay on point so we can have a reasonable discussion.

 

[Merge]

I don't think anyone here is trying to equate Antifa and BLW with KKK and White Supremacists.

Read the thread again. Lots of talk about "both sides" and being "equally abhorrent"

However, to not call out and denounce violent and criminal behavior because it is not as bad as the baddest is false logic.

Again, I think there is a bigger picture here that we should all be concerned about. There wouldn't have been another "side" if there wasn't a kkk rally. This was the biggest white supremacist rally in decades with many more rallies planed and saying this is just the beginning for them.

It is incredibly easy as a white christian male to sit back and say this isn't a big deal, because they aren't coming for me.

I am concerned that this movement will attract crazier and crazier people and will end up resulting in full riots.

You can not compare them to BLM. BLM was a movement that at it's core wants to reform the justice system so cops and in some cases citizens are not allowed to kill black people with no recourse. It wasn't started as a movement to kill cops, although yes, a handful of them did chant they want dead cops, and yes some cops were horrifically murdered possibly because they were inspired from the movement.

The white nationalists at their core do not seek equality in how they are treated. Their core is evil. You can look at BLM and say, we are willing to work with you to reform the criminal justice system but you have to make sure to stop the instances of violent rhetoric.

You can't say you can work with the white supremacists to get rid of all of the Jews and blacks if they just stop all of their violent rhetoric....

 

[SnakeTom]

http://wtvr.com/2017/08/17/poll-confederate-statues-remain/

62% in favor of keeping statues up.

Whether or not the statute in the park remains or is taken down should be decided by the people of Charolettesville and no one else.

If the statute were at a courthouse or Government building it would be inappropriate. At a park that's a different situation & should be up to the locals only..

Tom K

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Wow talk about fairness? When did I say one word about Obama in my post??? You have no idea what I think of Obama but that had zero to do with my post. My post was fair and balanced and said my opinion on how I would have handled the Charlottesville situation in a Presidential way. Stay on point so we can have a reasonable discussion.

You said Trump makes every situation worse. How are we doing economicly? How's the market? How's our unemployment situation? How's our situation with North Korea?

 

[Section112]

You said Trump makes every situation worse. How are we doing economicly? How's the market? How's our unemployment situation? How's our situation with North Korea?

The first three have little to do with a new Pres. The last point is better but unresolved. Again he makes everything worse with his stupid comments and tweets. For your info I'm not a fan of Obama at all. And you still never answered why you brought up Obama when I never did. I think it's because you like to repeat the talking points and have fallen for them. For the record I'm a conservative with liberal views on some social issues. I choose to think for myself and don't like this President. Wrong is wrong and my conscience and faith guide my decisions and how I think.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

The first three have little to do with a new Pres. The last point is better but unresolved. Again he makes everything worse with his stupid comments and tweets. For your info I'm not a fan of Obama at all. And you still never answered why you brought up Obama when I never did. I think it's because you like to repeat the talking points and have fallen for them. For the record I'm a conservative with liberal views on some social issues. I choose to think for myself and don't like this President. Wrong is wrong and my conscience and faith guide my decisions and how I think.

I wasn't to talking to you specifically about obama. It was more for people to be aware of it when it happens on here, to be aware that the media didn't call out Obama to call out what things were, not you specifically. I specifically mentioned the media in my post.

I agree wrong is wrong. I agree Trump should have tore into white supremacy, kkk, nazis on day 1. He made a mistake. There were no additional deaths due to the fact he didn't call them out but he did later do what he had to do. Where I disagree with you is on Antifa. If they did stir things up, that's wrong too. They need to be called out along with the kkk type groups too. They need to be held accountable for stirring the pot if they stirred up trouble. Wrong is wrong. It can't be ok to just call out one group if two groups were involved in wrong.

 

[SnakeTom]

Several of you keep talking about the situation in North Korea as if it was solved. As much as I would want it to be it isn't. We still do not know what the outcome will be. War could (tho hopefully not) break out at any time. Essentially there is little changed in North Korea for the past 67 years with the exception of their mad man expanding his arsenal. So unlike some of you I'm not ready to nominate Trump for a peace prize.

Tom K

 

[shu09]

Several of you keep talking about the situation in North Korea as if it was solved. As much as I would want it to be it isn't. We still do not know what the outcome will be. War could (tho hopefully not) break out at any time. Essentially there is little changed in North Korea for the past 67 years with the exception of their mad man expanding his arsenal. So unlike some of you I'm not ready to nominate Trump for a peace prize.

Tom K

By far the toughest issue this country faces at the present time. The president is in a rough spot through no fault of his own. 20+ years of bad policy from three consecutive administrations have put us where we are now. I credit the president for shaking things up, doing something different than the same old stuff and threatening them with some tough talk. That seems to have worked in the short term as they have backed down for now.

Moving forward, there are only two options as I see it.

• 1) an all-out attack to take them out before they can do any significant damage. That's up to the military planners, I have no idea how quickly we can take them out before they move against South Korea. Time is of the essence in that situation.
• 2) acceptance and containment of North Korea as a nuclear state. This is a situation that could be somewhat acceptable in the short term, but what happens in the medium to long term? Their arsenal will just keep growing and getting stronger. They will eventually figure out how to build a hydrogen bomb if we take this route.

With every day that passes, each of these options gets worse and tougher to pull off. Personally, I don't see any way around ending up with situation #1 at some point, whether that's next month, next year, 5 years from now or 10 years from now.

Diplomacy has proven time and time again not to work with this country. Yes, we should still keep the pressure on China to tighten the screws but I don't see that working in the long term. The Chinese will play the game they always do, catering to both sides and pushing each as far as they can go before snapping back the other way like a boomerang.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

Whether or not the statute in the park remains or is taken down should be decided by the people of Charolettesville and no one else.

If the statute were at a courthouse or Government building it would be inappropriate. At a park that's a different situation & should be up to the locals only..

Tom K

I agree, the people of Charlottesville should decide, not some mayor milking his 15 minutes of fame on cnn.

 

[shu09]

There are three fundamental issues when it comes to the North Korean chess game. All three appear to be non-negotiable.

1) The Kim regime's fundamental need to stay in power and do anything to ensure that is the case
2) The refusal of the United States to live with a North Korea that can threaten any of its allies or territories with nuclear weapons
3) China's refusal to alter the political dynamic on the Korean peninsula. China (and the world) knows that the fall of the Kim regime would result in a united Korea and a US-friendly ally sitting directly on its northeastern border, very likely with US troops on the peninsula. The Chinese, as it stands at this time, will not accept this.

We all know #1 and #2 are not going to change. #3 is unlikely to change, but if we're playing the long game, we have to do everything we can to convince China that we are not a threat to them and they could co-exist with a US-friendly neighbor. That is our only hope to avoid a truly bad situation in that part of the world. It will take a lot of work of a number of years to make it happen. It's a long shot, but it's one worth taking.

 

[cernjSHU]

By far the toughest issue this country faces at the present time. The president is in a rough spot through no fault of his own. 20+ years of bad policy from three consecutive administrations have put us where we are now. I credit the president for shaking things up, doing something different than the same old stuff and threatening them with some tough talk. That seems to have worked in the short term as they have backed down for now.

Moving forward, there are only two options as I see it.

• 1) an all-out attack to take them out before they can do any significant damage. That's up to the military planners, I have no idea how quickly we can take them out before they move against South Korea. Time is of the essence in that situation.
• 2) acceptance and containment of North Korea as a nuclear state. This is a situation that could be somewhat acceptable in the short term, but what happens in the medium to long term? Their arsenal will just keep growing and getting stronger. They will eventually figure out how to build a hydrogen bomb if we take this route.

With every day that passes, each of these options gets worse and tougher to pull off. Personally, I don't see any way around ending up with situation #1 at some point, whether that's next month, next year, 5 years from now or 10 years from now.

Diplomacy has proven time and time again not to work with this country. Yes, we should still keep the pressure on China to tighten the screws but I don't see that working in the long term. The Chinese will play the game they always do, catering to both sides and pushing each as far as they can go before snapping back the other way like a boomerang.

In another thread, when the North Korea incident began, I predicted that nothing will happen. First, NK will not attack the US or its allies because that will mean that the US will destroy them. This is true now and has been true for a very long time.

Two, Trump will not order a preemptive strike because then North Korea would end up bombing our allies of South Korea and Japan killing 0 of thousands and perhaps hundreds of thousands of people. There will be mor sanctions but that's about it. In the end, Un wants to survive. That's why he has nukes. Trump's instinct are probably to start a war but his generals will prevail and that's why nothing will happen. Trumps tough talk did nothing. Just an idiot talking like a thug.

Btw, because Trump is so short sighted, the help of the Chinese is difficult to obtain especially since he wants to have a trade war with China.

 

[knowknow456]

The President tweeted something for everyone from today's Boston demonstration

Looks like many anti-police agitators in Boston. Police are looking tough and smart! Thank you.

3:22 PM - Aug 19, 2017


Great job by all law enforcement officers and Boston Mayor @Marty_Walsh.

3:29 PM - Aug 19, 2017

Our great country has been divided for decades. Sometimes you need protest in order to heel, & we will heel, & be stronger than ever before!

4:34 PM - Aug 19, 2017

Our great country has been divided for decades. Sometimes you need protest in order to heal, & we will heal, & be stronger than ever before!

4:41 PM - Aug 19, 2017

 

[chickenbox]

You left out one of Trump's tweets where he misspelled 'heal' twice.

 

[Pirata]

Maria Chappelle-Nadal

Let's listen for all your heartfelt and unequivocal denouncements!

Crickets.

 

[knowknow456]

Maria Chappelle-Nadal

Let's listen for all your heartfelt and unequivocal denouncements!

Crickets.

This is a primarily a Seton Hall basketball forum that carves out a section for like minded Seton Hall fans to discuss matters outside it's core mission. No one is required to maintain this section as a comprehensive current events log. The job is yours should you want it.

Since you brought up Maria Chappelle-Nadal, what she said should be unequivocally denounced. Feel free to nominate other dumb people saying bad things.

 

[HALL85]

Politicians say stupid stuff by the minute. But for a public official to publicly suggest the assassination of the President is beyond stupid. How she is allowed to keep her job is beyond me.

 

[cernjSHU]

She is an insignificant State Senator from Missouri. Unfortunately, she is someone who is a miscreant and has no idea what is good for the country. As much as I think Trump is bad for this country and not worthy to be President, any call for his assasination is un American and is just outright wrong. But, any attempt to have this little state politician from Misssouri as something as being a movement in the Democratic parrty would be incorrect.

 

[Merge]

Politicians say stupid stuff by the minute. But for a public official to publicly suggest the assassination of the President is beyond stupid. How she is allowed to keep her job is beyond me.

Agreed. She obviously should resign.

I believe she could be forced out with a vote by the sentate but unfortunately they would probably be too afraid to do it, and would rather just let her run her course as an insignificant politician.

 

[Pirata]

Read the thread again. Lots of talk about "both sides" and being "equally abhorrent"

I did what you asked and went through the entire thread searching on those terms.

The "both sides" refers to several things: Statues, protestors, ideology.

Same with "equally abhorrent" where the first mention of that says the "protestors are equally abhorrent" and that gets twisted to someone doing the "so your saying that" and then goes on to talked about Hitler and history which was not what the poster said.

KKK, et al, are abhorrent. Period.

Antifa is part of an overall anarchist movement. They do not believe in a society based on Law.

Anarchists are abhorrent, especially violent anarchists.

I have no desire to get into a debate over which ideology is historically the worst.

If you reply to this and tell me that I am equating the two, that is not accurate.

I can't accept that it is OK to for a group to be violent toward another because we feel their ideology is not as bad as the other. They are both bad and unacceptable.

And to be clear, I am NOT saying that you have condoned or implied Antifa's violence is acceptable. You have denounce it.

One of the big problems in Charolottesville was that peaceful anti KKK protestors became mingled with violent anti KKK protestors. I got the sense the college kids were either duped into showing up or unaware the Antifa would be there.

I have seen no hard evidence that there were peaceful "civil war buffs" protesting the statue. It has been said there were but I have seen not video footage,etc to confirm that.

At some point the violent KKK, et al, and the violent Antifa ended up at close range and the violence broke out.

The result was the death of peaceful protestor. A true tragedy.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Well said, Pirata! I like this, too:

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/164297628606/how-to-know-youre-in-a-mass-hysteria-bubble

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm tired of the protests in general. In this case, let the people of Charlottesville debate it and vote on it. The rest of us respect their decision and move forward. I just wish the protests had a more consistent right vs wrong theme. I believe people should stand up against police brutality, but those same people should get out there and stand up when situations like the female police officer was killed in NYC recently. Everyone wants to stand up against the police, but nobody stands up when the criminal shoot the police? Are people fighting for good vs bad, right vs wrong? Or are they just standing up for their own agenda?

 

[Pirata]

Well said, Pirata! I like this, too:

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/164297628606/how-to-know-youre-in-a-mass-hysteria-bubble

If you take Trump out of the mix, there would have been much less traction on the Charlottesville story.

In a way, it may turn out for the better good in that important issues are being raised that otherwise would have bee swept under the rug.

 

[Section112]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm tired of the protests in general. In this case, let the people of Charlottesville debate it and vote on it. The rest of us respect their decision and move forward. I just wish the protests had a more consistent right vs wrong theme. I believe people should stand up against police brutality, but those same people should get out there and stand up when situations like the female police officer was killed in NYC recently. Everyone wants to stand up against the police, but nobody stands up when the criminal shoot the police? Are people fighting for good vs bad, right vs wrong? Or are they just standing up for their own agenda?

Problem is the protests are getting much more violent and some of the groups seem to want them that way. That is a clear sign of trouble and some of these groups are more emboldened than I can remember. Being a police officer in today's society has to be one of the toughest jobs going.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Are people fighting for good vs bad, right vs wrong? Or are they just standing up for their own agenda?

Sadly, the answer to that is as clear as day.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Sadly, the answer to that is as clear as day.

I don't want to speak for the white supremists or the KKK or the Neo Nazi's because those people need to go, but I think that's the problem a lot of average Americans have. Be consistent in your theme. The people of this country are not stupid. We see when people fight for a situation, then we see the exact same situation with roles reversed and people suddenly disappear. If people stand for a cause, not an agenda, progress will be made. As long as people speak out of both sides of their mouth picking and choosing when a situation works for them or doesn't work for them, people can see right through them and that halts progress. It's the boy who cried wolf in many ways. There is no trust the movement when there is no cosistency.

 

[Pirata]

FWIW, Lee's horse was named Traveller.

The horse is getting a bum deal!

It was only a matter of time

"USC mascot comes under fire for supposed ties to Robert E. Lee"


http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-fo...-white-nationalist/1dqlw9ko0m88z1swg6xkedx1ag

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

It was only a matter of time

"USC mascot comes under fire for supposed ties to Robert E. Lee"


http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-fo...-white-nationalist/1dqlw9ko0m88z1swg6xkedx1ag

Everything is about Robert E. Lee. Do people realize it was not just Lee vs everyone in the Union. There's an entire list of people who fought for the Confederates with ties to different things. At some point almost everything in the south could be tied to confederates in some way. If they spend all of their time looking for things associated with the Confederates these people are going to miss out on the 2020 election, 2024 election, and life in general.

 

[knowknow456]

They are trying to take away our history and our heritage

 

[HALL85]

Two things I would add on the subject. We are only looking at these statues and monuments as only historical symbols. Aren't they also reflective of the arts? Earlier this year we were out west and visited the Crazy Horse Monument in SD. This was initiated by native leaders and a Polish immigrant who had been a sculptor for Mount Rushmore. Is that an art form or is it a historical monument? You can argue that it's both. I just wonder if we are going down a road of a double standard. When we don't like something it's a historical monument that stand for something and there is no value placed on the artist and relevance. Are we also censoring the arts when we remove these landmarks?

Secondly, if this accelerates, it will continue to embolden Trumps base....and they are the ones with the guns. There is now a move afoot in New York about removing the statue of Christopher Columbus. That is not going to go well.