Collusion

[Merge]

If they were not lying about something why did they destroy all their files on their server in such a specific way and not turn over that evidence when subpoenaed? I also have a bridge to sell you on the cheap...

As someone who worked in IT for a while, the characterization ("in such a specific way") is fairly laughable.
Bleachbit is not some nefarious software program, and isn't something you would use if you actually want to delete records forever. Evidenced by the fact that the FBI did recover thousands of e-mails which were deleted. I personally use CCleaner which is similar but that would not protect me if I were doing something illegal. If I were doing something illegal I would destroy the drives entirely.... So basically your theory is that Hillary was doing something wrong, and to cover up this grand conspiracy used free open source software to cover up her tracks.

The FBI found no one intentionally obstructed the investigation.
Your assuming that they came up with that conclusion because they like Hillary and don't like Trump. It's fine if you want to go on believing that, but I am comfortable that the multiple levels of review at the FBI and potential whistleblowers makes your conspiracy seem less reasonable.

 

[Section112]

As someone who worked in IT for a while, the characterization ("in such a specific way") is fairly laughable.
Bleachbit is not some nefarious software program, and isn't something you would use if you actually want to delete records forever. Evidenced by the fact that the FBI did recover thousands of e-mails which were deleted. I personally use CCleaner which is similar but that would not protect me if I were doing something illegal. If I were doing something illegal I would destroy the drives entirely.... So basically your theory is that Hillary was doing something wrong, and to cover up this grand conspiracy used free open source software to cover up her tracks.

The FBI found no one intentionally obstructed the investigation.
Your assuming that they came up with that conclusion because they like Hillary and don't like Trump. It's fine if you want to go on believing that, but I am comfortable that the multiple levels of review at the FBI and potential whistleblowers makes your conspiracy seem less reasonable.

Let me know if you ever want to discuss that bridge...

 

[Merge]

Let me know if you ever want to discuss that bridge...

I find it sad that you think that the FBI in infiltrated at the highest levels of people who want to settle political scores and will ignore crimes by democrats.

Trump could ask his attorney general to open up the investigation again, and work with the FBI director that he appointed.
You think if there was any actual evidence of Obstruction that Trump wouldn't do that?

 

[Hall-line-forever]

As much as I hate to say it, I gotta go with Merge. I am also in technology. Here’s the deal.

All email is archived and saved to a server or servers that nobody can get to. Even if you delete your email from your desk, a copy is saved by your email administrator on those servers. I have been involved in researching many email for compromising situations for HR departments. Also, your files that you create are mostly saved on a file server. That server gets backed up often and chances are, you probably cannot remove it forever unless you create the file and use it for a day or two. I don’t know the security and user rights on a desktop or laptop for FBI, however I’m sure that you may not be able to save a file on it and therefore you can sanitizes your laptop all you want. There is probably nothing on it at all to begin with. Lastly, you can create a file and save it to your thumb drive and hand a file off to someone to view on their laptop. You can then erase the file from the laptop you copies from and the file you copied to. You still have the file on your thumb drive and nobody knows it.

 

[HALL85]

Speaking of "Collusion", it looks like Muller will be releasing his findings in the next couple of weeks (although we've heard that before). What's everyone think it will it recommend to the DOJ?

 

[Stevie_H]

I can't/won't guess what the report will recommend. For the most part, we already know much of what is in the report through filings. We know about Trump's relationship with Russia and the Trump campaign's nefarious connection/penetration with Russian intelligence. What we don't know is what Trump directed, what he knew, when he knew it, and how much leverage Putin has on him.

Prediction:

Trump's base won't care what's in it no matter what. They sustain themselves on all of Trump's bluster and lies. Too many in the GOP will continue prove themselves extreme cowards and bury their heads in the sand. Already ignored and/or explained away are the profoundly disturbing Trump connections with Russia, private meetings with Putin, and policy decisions (which fly in the face of longstanding American <not liberal> strategies) that directly benefit Putin and his plans to disrupt and sew division in our country and on the world stage.

I don't think there will be a smoking gun. The report will more likely display a complicated, ugly, and unsexy situation. Many in the general public, expecting something sensational thanks to the Steele Dossier (a published raw intelligence file), will yawn. There will be no pee-pee tape stuff. It's more likely going to be about some dirty money business.

This is already one of the greatest scandals in American history and it may win the "prize" for first. Regardless of what is in the report, Trump will take a victory lap and declare himself TOTTALY VINDICATED FAKE NEWS SOMETHING SOMETHING on Twitter. He'll continue to erode norms, set dangerous precedents, crap on the Constitution, give the finger to rule of law, and wipe his butt with the American flag. Many on this board will continue to focus on AOC and Hillary's emails while other lawsuits and investigations pile up. Yay USA...

 

[cernjSHU]

Speaking of "Collusion", it looks like Muller will be releasing his findings in the next couple of weeks (although we've heard that before). What's everyone think it will it recommend to the DOJ?

Quite frankly, I would be surprised that the report gets released soon. They just executed search warrants on Roger Stone. I would have thought there needs to be follow up on any leads that they may have obtained. Also, it may give a little time to soften up Stone to turn into a government witness. I have been eyeing August, September if nothing else comes up.

 

[Section112]

Quite frankly, I would be surprised that the report gets released soon. They just executed search warrants on Roger Stone. I would have thought there needs to be follow up on any leads that they may have obtained. Also, it may give a little time to soften up Stone to turn into a government witness. I have been eyeing August, September if nothing else comes up.

I tend to agree. Why right after arresting Stone are they finalizing the report? Maybe Mueller is looking to go on vacation or something. Doesn't really add up,

And for anyone who thinks the FBI is above board whether they are looking into Russian collusion by dummy Trump who surrounded himself with a bunch of shady characters or Hillary who was smug and thought she had the election in the bag and used all her powers to crush anyone challenging her (see the Democratic Committee and what they did to Bernie), again I have bridge to sell you... I mean why have so many FBI supposed high character folks leaked so much to the press? To help the American people or support their position? Is that ethical and the way they should be carrying out their jobs? I think not even in the face of an unethical big mouth President.

 

[Merge]

I tend to agree. Why right after arresting Stone are they finalizing the report? Maybe Mueller is looking to go on vacation or something. Doesn't really add up,

And for anyone who thinks the FBI is above board whether they are looking into Russian collusion by dummy Trump who surrounded himself with a bunch of shady characters or Hillary who was smug and thought she had the election in the bag and used all her powers to crush anyone challenging her (see the Democratic Committee and what they did to Bernie), again I have bridge to sell you... I mean why have so many FBI supposed high character folks leaked so much to the press? To help the American people or support their position? Is that ethical and the way they should be carrying out their jobs? I think not even in the face of an unethical big mouth President.

Does the FBI have a relationship with the press? Absolutely.
Do they try to control narratives? Absolutely

Are individuals at the highest levels putting their personal political biases above their duties to their institution and their country? I don't believe so.
You cite leaks as your reasoning but you can't then ignore that there is a mountain of information that the public doesn't now. Take Manafort passing polling data to the Russians for example. Don't you think that a rogue FBI agent with political motive against Trump would want that information out there? THE ONLY reason we know about it is because Manafort's attorney's didn't redact it properly.

What you are missing is that the major decisions regarding Hillary and Trump are not made by one person or two people or even three. There are multiple levels of review of this stuff
No one is suggesting that every single person that works at the FBI is infallible, but what you are suggesting is a conspiracy against the entire institution itself.
It is a characterization I do not agree with at all... so no, I'm not buying your bridge. but I'm also not buying your theory that isn't supported by reality.

 

[Merge]

Speaking of "Collusion", it looks like Muller will be releasing his findings in the next couple of weeks (although we've heard that before). What's everyone think it will it recommend to the DOJ?

Similar to others, I would be surprised if they are done especially due to the timing of just getting the search warrants on Stone and providing time for a cooperation agreement.
I've assumed that we will know when the investigation is done once Don Jr gets indicted.

My guess is that if there is a report coming in soon, it could be related to the obstruction investigation. No reason that couldn't be completed at this point.
My opinion on that hasn't changed and I do think he did try to obstruct justice.

 

[shu09]

So what do you suggest that we forget about whether or not Trump is an agent of Russia or has acted in concert with Russia? We are talking about the President of the US and at best you can say his actions and behavior towards Russia and Putin are shady. At worst, his actions are of a traitor.

Remember Watergate took two years for a simple burglary. We are talking about an international conspiracy with an adversarial foreign power and another slime ball Julien Assange. Look into Trump. Who was his attorney? It was Roy Cohn who was as corrupt of a human being legally, morally bankrupt and without a shred of ethics. Guess who else were with Roy Cohn? Roger Stone and Paul Manafort. They are all corrupt, selfish individuals who think nothing about their country only to the all mighty dollar.

Watergate was a whole lot more than a "simple burglary."

 

[HALL85]

If a report is coming soon, my guess is that it will only address whether there was collusion or not. They have constantly moved the goalposts on when the report will be issued so no better than 50-50 in my view that it is issued next month. If there is no collusion you can expect Trump and his supporters to spike the football, Trump haters to demand congressional hearings and people in the middle will decide for themselves what Barr reports. Isn’t that how it’s been all along?

 

[cernjSHU]

If a report is coming soon, my guess is that it will only address whether there was collusion or not. They have constantly moved the goalposts on when the report will be issued so no better than 50-50 in my view that it is issued next month. If there is no collusion you can expect Trump and his supporters to spike the football, Trump haters to demand congressional hearings and people in the middle will decide for themselves what Barr reports. Isn’t that how it’s been all along?

Who has moved the goal posts? Has Mueller or his team ever come out with when the report or investigation will be concluded? Answer no. There has been nothing but mere speculation coming from people trying to read the tea leaves or Rudy G. Like I have said in another post. I don't see it coming out soon. I still think there is work to do. Maybe August September.

 

[HALL85]

Who has moved the goal posts? Has Mueller or his team ever come out with when the report or investigation will be concluded? Answer no. There has been nothing but mere speculation coming from people trying to read the tea leaves or Rudy G. Like I have said in another post. I don't see it coming out soon. I still think there is work to do. Maybe August September.

Most of the reports have come from MSM “news” sources. Latest from CNN.

Like I said earlier...50/50 at best IMO we see a report out. I’m fine with whatever Mueller finds and recommendation to DOJ. Let the chips fall where they may. I won’t be in either cry-baby camp.

 

[knowknow456]

People just don't know the difference between fact and opinion.

 

[HALL85]

From what we saw and read of Cohen’s testimony (aka circus) yesterday, seems to support that there was no collusion. Will the Mueller report focus more on obstruction? Wondering if we actually see it issued in March.

 

[SPK145]

That was some dog and pony show.

One liar testifying about another liar all the while being questioned by a bunch of liars and hypocrites.

And we learned nothing new.

 

[HALL85]

That was some dog and pony show.

One liar testifying about another liar all the while being questioned by a bunch of liars and hypocrites.

And we learned nothing new.

Much better summation...lol

 

[Merge]

From what we saw and read of Cohen’s testimony (aka circus) yesterday, seems to support that there was no collusion. Will the Mueller report focus more on obstruction? Wondering if we actually see it issued in March.

From my view the two issues are inseparable. For Trump to have obstructed justice, we will need some kind of evidence that there was corrupt intent.
If there was no collusion of any kind, that would be very difficult if not impossible to prove.

I don't agree that his testimony supports the idea there was no collusion though. He even said he has his suspicions.

He said Trump was aware of the Trump tower meeting. Manafort was in that meeting, and subsequently provided private polling data to the Russians while still a member of the campaign. There are other reasons why I do believe there was collusion between the campaign and Russia, but providing that data is evidence of collusion.

 

[HALL85]

Cohen’s testimony on collusion was incredibly weak especially since he was one of the “inner circle” for over ten years. If anyone had information it would be him. He had no evidence and the most damning thing he said was that he had suspicions. More telling was that he said Trump never thought he would be elected.

Passing on polling data? Yawn, and there has been nothing about Trump directing Manafort to do so. Just don’t see any case for collusion.

 

[SPK145]

More telling was that he said Trump never thought he would be elected.

Actually he said that Trump never thought he would be elected and was just running to improve his brand and then later on said Trump would do anything to win. Two divergent statements, showing Cohen to be nothing more than another say anything phony in a city of phonies.

 

[Merge]

Cohen’s testimony on collusion was incredibly weak especially since he was one of the “inner circle” for over ten years. If anyone had information it would be him. He had no evidence and the most damning thing he said was that he had suspicions. More telling was that he said Trump never thought he would be elected.

Passing on polling data? Yawn, and there has been nothing about Trump directing Manafort to do so. Just don’t see any case for collusion.

I think we need to clarify what this investigation is.
Mueller's directive is to investigate "any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign"

If you don't have a direction from Trump, that doesn't mean there wasn't collusion between the campaign and the Russian government. The campaign spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on gathering the data. What is the reason he would be sharing that data outside of collusion.

Manafort literally spent a meeting at Trump tower with Russians who were offering to help the Trump campaign, and gave internal poling data to Russians after that.
Collusion isn't a theory anymore. The part that has not been proven yet is if Trump knew.

 

[Merge]

Actually he said that Trump never thought he would be elected and was just running to improve his brand and then later on said Trump would do anything to win. Two divergent statements, showing Cohen to be nothing more than another say anything phony in a city of phonies.

Trump's goal was to improve his brand, wanted to win but did not expect that he would.

Really not divergent statements at all.

 

[HALL85]

I think we need to clarify what this investigation is.
Mueller's directive is to investigate "any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign"

If you don't have a direction from Trump, that doesn't mean there wasn't collusion between the campaign and the Russian government. The campaign spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on gathering the data. What is the reason he would be sharing that data outside of collusion.

Manafort literally spent a meeting at Trump tower with Russians who were offering to help the Trump campaign, and gave internal poling data to Russians after that.
Collusion isn't a theory anymore. The part that has not been proven yet is if Trump knew.

Your conspiracy theory keeps shrinking. I’m happy to see what Mueller has found and what is recommended to Barr and let the chips fall where they may. Given Manafort was a part of the campaign for a few weeks and there was only one meeting that we know of that had players coming and going during it, common sense tells me that it doesn’t smell like a carefully orchestrated ongoing collusion activity. We shall see.

 

[Merge]

Your conspiracy theory keeps shrinking. I’m happy to see what Mueller has found and what is recommended to Barr and let the chips fall where they may. Given Manafort was a part of the campaign for a few weeks and there was only one meeting that we know of that had players coming and going during it, common sense tells me that it doesn’t smell like a carefully orchestrated ongoing collusion activity. We shall see.

lol. "A few weeks". It was 20 weeks.
Only 1 meeting? Manafort himself had more than 1 and there were over a hundred contacts between the Trump campaign and Russians and they lied about all of them.
What does common sense tell you about why they lied?

My "conspiracy theory" didn't shrink at all. The biggest piece of evidence that supports my view (Manafort sharing polling data) is only public because of a mistake by Manafort's lawyers.

I will accept whatever the outcome of the investigation is of course but I am willing to state all of my opinions about the case.
If I am wrong, so be it, but for now:

I believe Putin has leverage over Trump
I believe Russia helped Trump win the election because of that leverage
I believe members of Trump's campaign were aware of and coordinated with Russia in efforts to help Trump win
I believe Trump was aware of the efforts.

 

[donnie_baseball]

I believe Putin has leverage over Trump
I believe Russia helped Trump win the election because of that leverage

Is it the chicken or the egg, in your mind? Did Russia help Trump because of the leverage, or did he have some kind of leverage over Trump before "helping?"

 

[HALL85]

lol. "A few weeks". It was 20 weeks.
Only 1 meeting? Manafort himself had more than 1 and there were over a hundred contacts between the Trump campaign and Russians and they lied about all of them.
What does common sense tell you about why they lied?

My "conspiracy theory" didn't shrink at all. The biggest piece of evidence that supports my view (Manafort sharing polling data) is only public because of a mistake by Manafort's lawyers.

I will accept whatever the outcome of the investigation is of course but I am willing to state all of my opinions about the case.
If I am wrong, so be it, but for now:

I believe Putin has leverage over Trump
I believe Russia helped Trump win the election because of that leverage
I believe members of Trump's campaign were aware of and coordinated with Russia in efforts to help Trump win
I believe Trump was aware of the efforts.

I give you credit for sticking your chin out there and accepting the outcome of Mueller's report. Based on what I've seen, it looks more like Manafort did an end run without much if any consultation with Trump and his kids. Tough to give any credibility to Cohen, but if there was any collusion coordinated by anyone in the inner circle, he would have known and come clean to save his own hide.

 

[shuvrp]

I believe Putin has leverage over Trump
I believe Russia helped Trump win the election because of that leverage
I believe members of Trump's campaign were aware of and coordinated with Russia in efforts to help Trump win
I believe Trump was aware of the efforts.

While the leverage thing has yet to be proven, this is also useful for the record:

Russia helped Trump win the election because Trump is pro-Russia - undermining/attacking NATO and EU, bashing the FBI and Justice Department (Two institutions that combat Russian espionage and influence operations in the US), withdrawing troops from Syria, Trump praising Putin and other dictators/authoritarians while bashing Democratic leaders - These are all things that align with Putin's goals of strengthening his countries' standing in the world. Even without leverage, they would want Trump to win.

Not that I am against all of these items, or they are all bad things, but they do align with Putin/Russia.

 

[Merge]

Is it the chicken or the egg, in your mind? Did Russia help Trump because of the leverage, or did he have some kind of leverage over Trump before "helping?"

Based on everything I have read, I believe Russia has been building leverage over Trump since the 1980's.

 

[cernjSHU]

2 key things out of Cohen's testimony that we did not know.

1) Don Jr whispering into the Trump's ear that the meeting was set. Let's not be naive here. Of course Trump knew that a meeting with Russians were going to take place with Manafort, son and son-in-law.

2) Call from Roger Stone concerning the e-mails. Does anyone really think that Roger Stone or Manafort did things without Trump';s knowledge? Come on that is entirely unbelievable. Now, if you want to say is there sufficient proof to convict? Well, we shall see with the Mueller report.

 

[SPK145]

2 key things out of Cohen's testimony that we did not know.

1) Don Jr whispering into the Trump's ear that the meeting was set. Let's not be naive here. Of course Trump knew that a meeting with Russians were going to take place with Manafort, son and son-in-law.

2) Call from Roger Stone concerning the e-mails. Does anyone really think that Roger Stone or Manafort did things without Trump';s knowledge? Come on that is entirely unbelievable. Now, if you want to say is there sufficient proof to convict? Well, we shall see with the Mueller report.

Those are only true if you fully believe Cohen and are still just circumstantial, no?

 

[knowknow456]

Michael Cohen is a great American Patriot, braving the wrath of the greatest twitter account ever created, to speak truth to power.

 

[afghan whigs]

While the leverage thing has yet to be proven, this is also useful for the record:

Russia helped Trump win the election because Trump is pro-Russia - undermining/attacking NATO and EU, bashing the FBI and Justice Department (Two institutions that combat Russian espionage and influence operations in the US), withdrawing troops from Syria, Trump praising Putin and other dictators/authoritarians while bashing Democratic leaders - These are all things that align with Putin's goals of strengthening his countries' standing in the world. Even without leverage, they would want Trump to win.

Not that I am against all of these items, or they are all bad things, but they do align with Putin/Russia.

I didn't need the Russians to tell me Hillary was a lying, power hungry, carpet bagging biotch. I didn't care about her email. I voted for Bill but there was no way I was voting for her. Trump needed to bash Nato because they were not held accountable to pay their fair share. The US was stuck subsidizing their security. How long do you want to stay in Syria, 10 years , 20 years? Another Afghanistan, no thanks.

 

[Merge]

Those are only true if you fully believe Cohen and are still just circumstantial, no?

I don't think he is saying that we have seen evidence to convict, just that we can make the assumption.

Ignoring the testimony yesterday, is it likely that Trump would have known about the Trump tower meeting which his son, son in law and campaign manager would be attending?

There is circumstantial evidence that Trump knew about the meeting when looking at the timeline.
In a speech two days before the meeting and after the meeting was confirmed Trump said "I am going to give a major speech on — probably Monday of next week — and we’re going to be discussing all of the things that have taken place with the Clintons, I think you’re going to find it very informative, and very, very interesting.”

Clearly just circumstantial, but Cohen provided some corroborating evidence. Still not enough to convict Trump, but assume we will see irrefutable proof either way and gun to the head and you had to guess... I would guess he knew.

 

[cernjSHU]

Those are only true if you fully believe Cohen and are still just circumstantial, no?

Circumstantial evidence can be as powerful and can be more convincing evidence than direct evidence.

Here are jury instructions that gives u an example of what direct evidence is and what circumstantial evidence is. Direct evidence is you walk outside at night and see it snowing. Circumstantial would be you went to bed at night and there was no snow on the ground. You wake up in the morning and you walk outside, and you see snow on the ground.

Both are evidence that it snowed during the night. Both are evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it snowed during the night.

 

[knowknow456]

Are you going to believe me or your own lying eyes?

 

[SPK145]

Those are only true if you fully believe Cohen and are still just circumstantial, no?

So no comments on Cohen's blatant lying this past week?

His book proposal as compared to what he said in his testimony to Congress:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ump-book-proposal-DailyMail-com-revealed.html

His statement to Congress that he did not want a job in the Trump administration yet he clearly did want to go to Washington per his interview with CNN's Cuomo:

https://www.newsweek.com/did-michael-cohen-commit-perjury-1348092


How anyone can believe anyone involved here is incredulous. Lying liars and the lies they tell.

 

[Merge]

His book proposal as compared to what he said in his testimony to Congress:

I mean, he was trying to leverage his position to make money. I don't think offering to write a puff piece of a book is related to his testimony at all.

His statement to Congress that he did not want a job in the Trump administration yet he clearly did want to go to Washington per his interview with CNN's Cuomo

Cohen literally said that based on advice of counsel he would lose attorney client privilege if he worked in the white house.
You don't see a possibility that he wanted to work in the white house and then realized why that would be a bad idea so he no longer wanted to? Jordan's line of questioning was trying to make it seem like this was revenge by Cohen - that idea could be easily brushed away if Cohen can produce that document from his attorney saying he should not work at the white house.

How anyone can believe anyone involved here is incredulous. Lying liars and the lies they tell.

We do need to assess his credibility, but should do so in context. Cohen is set to go to jail for 3 years, and is in talks with the SDNY to reduce that amount of time. If he got caught lying now there is zero change he would reduce how much time he spends in prison.When you consider that fact, and the fact that he shot down a couple conspiracy theories against Trump, his credibility improves.

 

[knowknow456]

I totally believe everything Cohen said yesterday. He was a humbled man coming clean before the nation to speak the truth. A true Patriot. Also Elijah Cummimgs' closing remarks ought to bring the nation together, although most likely it will not.

 

[HALL85]

I mean, he was trying to leverage his position to make money. I don't think offering to write a puff piece of a book is related to his testimony at all.



Cohen literally said that based on advice of counsel he would lose attorney client privilege if he worked in the white house.
You don't see a possibility that he wanted to work in the white house and then realized why that would be a bad idea so he no longer wanted to? Jordan's line of questioning was trying to make it seem like this was revenge by Cohen - that idea could be easily brushed away if Cohen can produce that document from his attorney saying he should not work at the white house.



We do need to assess his credibility, but should do so in context. Cohen is set to go to jail for 3 years, and is in talks with the SDNY to reduce that amount of time. If he got caught lying now there is zero change he would reduce how much time he spends in prison.When you consider that fact, and the fact that he shot down a couple conspiracy theories against Trump, his credibility improves.

Sorry, but Cohen loses all credibility because he had no problem accepting payment from Trump for over 10 years despite how he characterized him as a racist and fraud. He was also shilling to companies like Novartis selling info on access to Trump while lining his own pockets. He wasn’t a kid. Saying that he just got caught up in it just doesn’t fly with me.