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Collusion

Here's the story.

Yep. "The NBC-WSJ poll conducted from Feb. 24 to Feb. 27." Cohen testimony and results of NK talks really aren't a part of the poll results yet

You seem to think I have a rooting interest in Trump prevailing instead of the truth for some reason.

Not necessarily, but I do think some of your positions have been a little off which is why we have these debates.
I think you would agree Cohen doesn't want to go to jail, right?
Criminals do stupid things, so I am not saying you need to accept every word he says... but the fact that lying now will remove any possibility of a reduced sentence with the SDNY should provide some credibility.

From my view anyone with the stance that Cohen has no credibility or is completely credible is making an entirely partisan argument... so yes, in my opinion your view does come off as having a rooting interest.
 
Yep. "The NBC-WSJ poll conducted from Feb. 24 to Feb. 27." Cohen testimony and results of NK talks really aren't a part of the poll results yet



Not necessarily, but I do think some of your positions have been a little off which is why we have these debates.
I think you would agree Cohen doesn't want to go to jail, right?
Criminals do stupid things, so I am not saying you need to accept every word he says... but the fact that lying now will remove any possibility of a reduced sentence with the SDNY should provide some credibility.

From my view anyone with the stance that Cohen has no credibility or is completely credible is making an entirely partisan argument... so yes, in my opinion your view does come off as having a rooting interest.
"A little off"...lol... If you define not reading the partisan talking points as "a little off", guilty as charged.

I'm sure Cohen would want to avoid jail, but lying under oath is not a winnable strategy for that. A liar is a liar...don't know how partisanship plays into that. I see a lot of lying on both sides and have no issue calling them out.
 
A liar is a liar...don't know how partisanship plays into that.

I don't think there is anything Cohen could have said which would have made him credible in your opinion based on what you described as your reasons why he isn't.

In my opinion, that does seem a little off considering our justice system has relied/relies on people that testified against others while they were caught up in being a part of it.
 
I don't think there is anything Cohen could have said which would have made him credible in your opinion based on what you described as your reasons why he isn't.

In my opinion, that does seem a little off considering our justice system has relied/relies on people that testified against others while they were caught up in being a part of it.
So you know what I'm thinking...keep running with that. Calls into question your credibility...lol.
 
Sorry, but Cohen loses all credibility because he had no problem accepting payment from Trump for over 10 years despite how he characterized him as a racist and fraud. He was also shilling to companies like Novartis selling info on access to Trump while lining his own pockets. He wasn’t a kid. Saying that he just got caught up in it just doesn’t fly with me.

Are these your words? If so, than we know what you are thinking. Since Cohen worked for Trump for over 10 years before he testified in front of Congress, you believe any negative comments Cohen said about Donald Trump would not be credible.
 
So you know what I'm thinking...keep running with that. Calls into question your credibility...lol.

Well, no. I don't know what you are thinking which is why I was asking questions.

I used Enron as an example, and you said that you "would feel the same way about them. Zero credibility."
So to you, it wouldn't matter what they said in their testimony. They have zero credibility.

So from your answers, I can infer that nothing Cohen said would have made him credible from your view.
 
Well, no. I don't know what you are thinking which is why I was asking questions.

I used Enron as an example, and you said that you "would feel the same way about them. Zero credibility."
So to you, it wouldn't matter what they said in their testimony. They have zero credibility.

So from your answers, I can infer that nothing Cohen said would have made him credible from your view.
Because if an executive at Enron was a willing participant for 10+ years and made a fortune, knowing full well it was illegal and then said Jeff Skilling was a racist, liar and thief, but he still decided to be a part of it (and decided to come clean after the fact after seeing Skilling say something at a press conference.......yes, I would have a real problem with that persons character and credibility. Not sure that continues to be something you can't grasp or would be okay with.
 
I don't think there is anything Cohen could have said which would have made him credible in your opinion based on what you described as your reasons why he isn't.

In my opinion, that does seem a little off considering our justice system has relied/relies on people that testified against others while they were caught up in being a part of it.
Dude, give it up, you have repeated this same point how many times? We got it, you think he was credible, Hall85 didn't.
 
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Dude, give it up, you have repeated this same point how many times? We got it, you think he was credible, Hall85 didn't.

I'm done. Our justice system relies on testimony from people like Cohen and worse, but we are all free to our own opinions.
 
I'm done. Our justice system relies on testimony from people like Cohen and worse, but we are all free to our own opinions.
Yes, think everyone understands that, and one problem with putting people on the stand that are also criminals is if the jury is going to believe his testimony or not, and “what” is his motivation to testify.
 
Yes, think everyone understands that, and one problem with putting people on the stand that are also criminals is if the jury is going to believe his testimony or not, and “what” is his motivation to testify.

Yes, that was my point.
 
For me it's hard to tell who is ever telling the truth anymore. Cohen - "I did not ask for a pardon." Now his lawyers apparently did but of course Cohen says he had no knowledge of that. All the players are lying it seems whether it's to protect themselves, save their asses etc. Or they are partially telling the truth again to save their asses or protect themselves. The House oversight committee is subpoenaing the crap out of 80+ people connected to the President. What they are doing is quite obvious. The President has surrounded himself with a bunch of sleezy characters. He practically invited this scrutiny and lost his ground cover with the recent election. But this process will drag out for years to fight the subpoenas and everything associated with it.

As all this goes on - our elected representatives do nothing for the American people and at least half the Americans are happy about this and the newly elected House Reps seem to be basking in this.

A new President will get elected on the other side of the aisle and I expect to see the rinse and repeat cycle if the House is divided again. Welcome to American politics. While they pad their pensions Americans suffer and nothing gets accomplished.
 
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The House oversight committee is subpoenaing the crap out of 80+ people connected to the President. What they are doing is quite obvious.

Yes. They are trying to get answers to some of the questions raised from the Russia investigation and other potentially illegal activity by the president.
 
As someone who has used people who have lied initially and then turned to a state’s witness in a criminal trial, I am always concerned about his credibility. Prosecutors will want to have objective and hard evidence to back up the witness’s claims that will bolster that witnesse’s credibility. These witnesses almost always turn to get less time on their sentence. That is how prosecution works. If you are going to catch a criminal, most likely, you will use some criminals that are around him and know him and the details of the business and or crimes.

The thrust of Cohen’s testimony is that Trump committed campaign finance fraud. He paid hush money on behalf of Trump to two women. Trump clearly lied in a interview when he was on air force one that he even knew Stormy Davis, never mind paying her off. Meanwhile, Cohen backs up Stormy Davis’s story and then adds in and show checks written by Trump himself. Boy oh boy, from a prosecutor point of view that is solid. Now, I don’t think this is enough to impeach Trump. It should be. But it won’t.

What bolsters Cohen’s credibility is that he doesn’t know for sure about Russia. He had suspicions but nothing concrete. Finally, there is not a time a cooperating witness got on the stand and did not get tripped up on some small fact that is really collateral to his testimony.

You can continue to pick apart a cooperating witness story, but do you have any reasonable doubt in your mind that

1) Trump paid off these women through Cohen

2) Trump paid them off in order for this news not to be released

3). He did not want this news out there because it could harm the Presidential election.
 
As someone who has used people who have lied initially and then turned to a state’s witness in a criminal trial, I am always concerned about his credibility. Prosecutors will want to have objective and hard evidence to back up the witness’s claims that will bolster that witnesse’s credibility. These witnesses almost always turn to get less time on their sentence. That is how prosecution works. If you are going to catch a criminal, most likely, you will use some criminals that are around him and know him and the details of the business and or crimes.

The thrust of Cohen’s testimony is that Trump committed campaign finance fraud. He paid hush money on behalf of Trump to two women. Trump clearly lied in a interview when he was on air force one that he even knew Stormy Davis, never mind paying her off. Meanwhile, Cohen backs up Stormy Davis’s story and then adds in and show checks written by Trump himself. Boy oh boy, from a prosecutor point of view that is solid. Now, I don’t think this is enough to impeach Trump. It should be. But it won’t.

What bolsters Cohen’s credibility is that he doesn’t know for sure about Russia. He had suspicions but nothing concrete. Finally, there is not a time a cooperating witness got on the stand and did not get tripped up on some small fact that is really collateral to his testimony.

You can continue to pick apart a cooperating witness story, but do you have any reasonable doubt in your mind that

1) Trump paid off these women through Cohen

2) Trump paid them off in order for this news not to be released

3). He did not want this news out there because it could harm the Presidential election.
I have no doubt that Trump paid these women off through Cohen. And I’m sure he did it so it would not impact the election nor embarrass his family. I agree that this does not rise to an impeachable offense.
 
I have no doubt that Trump paid these women off through Cohen. And I’m sure he did it so it would not impact the election nor embarrass his family. I agree that this does not rise to an impeachable offense.

I agree with this, seems like the crime is not reporting this as a campaign expense, a complete nothingburger compared to past presidents and their amounts of misreporting.
 
I agree with this, seems like the crime is not reporting this as a campaign expense, a complete nothingburger compared to past presidents and their amounts of misreporting.

You realize that a reporting error and an intentional direction to break the law is an entirely different circumstance, no?
The crime is the conspiracy.

For this to be a problem for Trump, you have to show criminal intent.
If the payment was made to prevent the story from impacting the election which you seem to agree with, then that is conspiracy to violate federal election laws.
 
You realize that a reporting error and an intentional direction to break the law is an entirely different circumstance, no?
The crime is the conspiracy.

For this to be a problem for Trump, you have to show criminal intent.
If the payment was made to prevent the story from impacting the election which you seem to agree with, then that is conspiracy to violate federal election laws.

But it’s not illegal to pay hush money, is it?

Campaigns pay lots of money for lots of things to impact the election, isn’t advertising done “to impact the election”?
 
I have no doubt that Trump paid these women off through Cohen. And I’m sure he did it so it would not impact the election nor embarrass his family. I agree that this does not rise to an impeachable offense.

Goes into what is the definition of "high crimes and misdemeanors". An ambiguous term for sure. I am not sure what that threshold would be.
 
But it’s not illegal to pay hush money, is it?

Campaigns pay lots of money for lots of things to impact the election, isn’t advertising done “to impact the election”?

It is not illegal to pay hush money... but there are rules that candidates must follow regarding those types of payments if it is related to the outcome of the election.
John Edwards was indicted because of a similar situation though the grand jury ended up deadlocked.

There are lots of rules regarding advertising, you have to be more specific with your question.
 
Goes into what is the definition of "high crimes and misdemeanors". An ambiguous term for sure. I am not sure what that threshold would be.
I don’t think this comes close and I don’t think this would get much public support.
 
It is not illegal to pay hush money... but there are rules that candidates must follow regarding those types of payments if it is related to the outcome of the election.
John Edwards was indicted because of a similar situation though the grand jury ended up deadlocked.

There are lots of rules regarding advertising, you have to be more specific with your question.

I thought it was mostly about disclosure. Still a pretty big nothingburger if it’s more than that,

Collusion is still the big fish here. It could have happened but is real corroborated evidence is needed, assumptions and innuendoes aside.
 
I thought it was mostly about disclosure. Still a pretty big nothingburger if it’s more than that,

Violating the law would be a nothingburger.
Conspiracy to violate the law is the problem.

The case against Trump here is actually easier than the case against Edwards mainly because of the timing of the payments.

Cohen was indicted on these charges and Trump is an unindicted co-conspirator protected by the presidency.
Based on the Edwards case, I would be surprised if Trump was not indicted on this when he is out of office.

Collusion is still the big fish here. It could have happened but is real corroborated evidence is needed, assumptions and innuendoes aside.

Indeed, I don't want to see Trump removed from office unless we have evidence of collusion.
We know they were willing and tried to collude... I just believe they didn't fail in those efforts.
 
I don’t think this comes close and I don’t think this would get much public support.

Where is the line though?
Perjury and conspiracy the violate campaign finance laws seem to be similar types of "high crimes and misdemeanors"

Do you think the house was wrong to impeach Clinton?
 
Where is the line though?
Perjury and conspiracy the violate campaign finance laws seem to be similar types of "high crimes and misdemeanors"

Do you think the house was wrong to impeach Clinton?
Both Clinton and Trump are immoral slime balls, but it was a mistake then and would be a mistake now to impeach.
 
Both Clinton and Trump are immoral slime balls, but it was a mistake then and would be a mistake now to impeach.

I actually think impeaching was probably the right call with Clinton as public trust is essential to the office.

I tend to agree that Trump shouldn't be because of the hush money payments, but I don't have a strong understanding of what should be considered a high crime and misdemeanor.
 
I actually think impeaching was probably the right call with Clinton as public trust is essential to the office.

I tend to agree that Trump shouldn't be because of the hush money payments, but I don't have a strong understanding of what should be considered a high crime and misdemeanor.
Given the #metoo movement today and that Clinton did his misdeed while in office, how it would have been handled.
 
I actually think impeaching was probably the right call with Clinton as public trust is essential to the office.

I tend to agree that Trump shouldn't be because of the hush money payments, but I don't have a strong understanding of what should be considered a high crime and misdemeanor.

The Clinton impeachment was an absolute joke. It actually had nothing to do with the public trust. The John Edwards indictment was essentially a joke and got laughed out of court. Paying hush payments while technically illegal campaign finance violation, does not get anyone excited. Was it illegal, yeah. but no jury is going to convict. Now, I do think this is important, however, to show the overall pattern of Trump lying and covering it up which will be useful on other crimes.

One of the biggest crimes ever committed by a President was Ronald Reagan when he sold arms to Iran which was against a law the Reagan signed into law in order to fund the Contras in Nicaragua. Now, just because it is a crime, doesn't mean that a President should be impeached for it. I think it was right not to impeach Reagan, thought it was wrong to impeach Clinton. If the payments were the only thing against Trump, I would say that it would be wrong to impeach Trump. However, this is not the only thing that will come out against Trump.
 
Given the #metoo movement today and that Clinton did his misdeed while in office, how it would have been handled.

What misdeed in office? It was a consensual act between two consenting adults. What was she 22 or 23?
 
What misdeed in office? It was a consensual act between two consenting adults. What was she 22 or 23?
You don’t think he took advantage of his power and influence to take advantage of her? Total scumbag.
 
The Clinton impeachment was an absolute joke. It actually had nothing to do with the public trust.

Agree on the process. It was a sham that he had to testify at all, but I don't think a sitting president can maintain public trust and lie under oath.

The John Edwards indictment was essentially a joke and got laughed out of court.

The trial lasted 6 weeks and the Jury was deadlocked. Wasn't quite laughed out of court, prosecutors just failed to prove their case.
The case against Trump here is easier.

If the payments were the only thing against Trump, I would say that it would be wrong to impeach Trump. However, this is not the only thing that will come out against Trump.

Agreed. I believe we will see more.
Right now it is about public support. If public support for Trump stays around 40%, nothing will happen. If as we learn more through these hearings, public support starts to drop below 30% or so (Nixonish numbers) I do think republicans will start to turn on him and support removal.
 
Agree on the process. It was a sham that he had to testify at all, but I don't think a sitting president can maintain public trust and lie under oath.



The trial lasted 6 weeks and the Jury was deadlocked. Wasn't quite laughed out of court, prosecutors just failed to prove their case.
The case against Trump here is easier.

Edwards was acquitted of one count and there was only a couple of holdouts to acquittal to the other counts. That is being laughed out of court in a federal courtroom. Very close to a clean sweep acquittal.
 
Agree on the process. It was a sham that he had to testify at all, but I don't think a sitting president can maintain public trust and lie under oath.



The trial lasted 6 weeks and the Jury was deadlocked. Wasn't quite laughed out of court, prosecutors just failed to prove their case.
The case against Trump here is easier.



Agreed. I believe we will see more.
Right now it is about public support. If public support for Trump stays around 40%, nothing will happen. If as we learn more through these hearings, public support starts to drop below 30% or so (Nixonish numbers) I do think republicans will start to turn on him and support removal.
If there is no collusion that comes out of Mueller’s report I would expect his approval to maybe bump a little north of where it is now. I didn’t think he would run for re-election in 2020, but now not so sure. If he does it will hinge on who the Democratic candidate is and how the economy continues to chug along.
 
You don’t think he took advantage of his power and influence to take advantage of her? Total scumbag.

Uhm, no. I am not buying into that narrative at all. She was a grown woman who was infatuated with Bill Clinton. She was doing the chasing and he was dumb enough to allow it to happen. Many women fall for the stardom of men whether it be athletes, musicians or politicians to name a few.
 
Uhm, no. I am not buying into that narrative at all. She was a grown woman who was infatuated with Bill Clinton. She was doing the chasing and he was dumb enough to allow it to happen. Many women fall for the stardom of men whether it be athletes, musicians or politicians to name a few.
Well then we disagree. Don't know if you have kids, but having had three daughters who were all 22 at one time and matched up against the most powerful man in the country, Sure, she was infatuated, but it's way more than being dumb on his part. Bill is a predator. The series on this that ran on CNN also showed how bad the intimidation was in the aftermath. She might have been a dumb kid, but he is a scumbag predator.
 
If there is no collusion that comes out of Mueller’s report I would expect his approval to maybe bump a little north of where it is now. I didn’t think he would run for re-election in 2020, but now not so sure. If he does it will hinge on who the Democratic candidate is and how the economy continues to chug along.

Sure, I'd agree that if Mueller puts out a report that says there is no evidence that Trump worked with Russia and did not obstruct justice, his poll numbers would increase.
I don't really see that happening based on what is already public knowledge though.
 
Well then we disagree. Don't know if you have kids, but having had three daughters who were all 22 at one time and matched up against the most powerful man in the country, Sure, she was infatuated, but it's way more than being dumb on his part. Bill is a predator. The series on this that ran on CNN also showed how bad the intimidation was in the aftermath. She might have been a dumb kid, but he is a scumbag predator.

You are talking about the aftermath. Bill Clinton is not the only man who was in his 50's and bedded down (oops my bad. Only oral) a 20 something year old. I couldn't care less about a person's sexual dalliances between two consenting people. That is why I don't care about Trump paying off women to be silent or how many affairs he had. That is his private business.

I get that you may have daughters that were in their 20's. But your daughters were not children at that age and no one was a child at that age. There are many people younger than that fighting in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. No offense, if you are old enough to kill, you are old enough to have sex with who ever you want and that could be someone much older. A 20 something year old woman does not get the excuse that the man should have fended off her advances because he was much older than her.
 
You are talking about the aftermath. Bill Clinton is not the only man who was in his 50's and bedded down (oops my bad. Only oral) a 20 something year old. I couldn't care less about a person's sexual dalliances between two consenting people. That is why I don't care about Trump paying off women to be silent or how many affairs he had. That is his private business.

I get that you may have daughters that were in their 20's. But your daughters were not children at that age and no one was a child at that age. There are many people younger than that fighting in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. No offense, if you are old enough to kill, you are old enough to have sex with who ever you want and that could be someone much older. A 20 something year old woman does not get the excuse that the man should have fended off her advances because he was much older than her.
I don't get the war and killing analogy and I don't care if a 50 year old guy is having sex with a 20 year old, but we are talking about the President of the country and an intern. If you don't get the abuse of power in a position like this, you also probably have a soft spot for Harvey Weinstein.
 
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