Fatima

[Belluno]

On this date in 1917 Our Blessed Mother appeared for the third time to the three children. This time she opened the earth and briefly showed them a view of Hell. The eldest of the three Lucy wrote the description:

"Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers" floating, rising and falling "without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and filled us with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals."

Years later Lucy said the terrible vision lasted only an instant "thanks to our Good Mother in Heaven, who in the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Were it not for that, I believe we would have died out of fright and fear."

 

[Old_alum]

The visitations were miraculous. The newspapers reported 30,000 said they saw the sun "dropping from the sky". Our Lady's "third prophecy", that a bishop in white would be shot, was kept secret until 2000. On June 26th Pope John Paul II26, released said that Ağca's assassination attempt was the fulfillment of this Secret. May 13th (the date of the assassination attempt) is the anniversary of the first apparition of the Virgin Mary to the three children of Fatima, something the Pope has always regarded as significant, attributing his survival on that day to her protection. Some books have reported that when the Pope was shot at point-blank range, the bullet deflected off the steel Fatima medal he was wearing.

Makes one ponder, no?

 

[Belluno]

The visitations were miraculous. The newspapers reported 30,000 said they saw the sun "dropping from the sky". Our Lady's "third prophecy", that a bishop in white would be shot, was kept secret until 2000. On June 26th Pope John Paul II26, released said that Ağca's assassination attempt was the fulfillment of this Secret. May 13th (the date of the assassination attempt) is the anniversary of the first apparition of the Virgin Mary to the three children of Fatima, something the Pope has always regarded as significant, attributing his survival on that day to her protection. Some books have reported that when the Pope was shot at point-blank range, the bullet deflected off the steel Fatima medal he was wearing.

Makes one ponder, no?

Very curious. I added a response to this a week ago, went off to Europe , and returned yesterday to find no trace of my remarks, so I'll try again.

I have read that as many as 70,000 to 100,000 people were in attendance. That would be truly remarkable, as the roads to Fatima in 1917 surely were dirt and difficult to traverse. I visited in 1984 when the road was paved but still only two lanes and twisting. It was still not an easy trip. Regardless of the actual number of people, the crowd included not only the faithful, but also large numbers of atheists, Communists, and members of the ruling Masonic Party. These last three came anticipating no miracle would occur and the Church would suffer a fatal blow in Portugal, at least. But the sun dipped, dived, spun and changed colors. It was possible to look at it without any eye damage for the eight to ten minutes of the miracle. The day was a stormy one, driving rain and wind soaked the clothes of all, but after the sun returned to its place, people noticed their clothes were dry. A writer for the Masonic newspaper in Lisbon wrote an accurate account of what he had experienced, and, of course, was ostracized by his editors. This was no illusion or hallucination, and many were converted to the Faith that day. How lucky for them.

Honestly, when I read how some proudly announce they have left the Church, I cringe. To be a cradle Catholic is truly a gift from God; to leave the Church is folly, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Old_alum]

Alas, I fear that we Boomers did not do enough for the Gen-X and Millennials.

In the 1950s and before most if not all religious education of the youth was left to the nuns and the Catholic Schools. In general IMHO this was an era in which many priests viewed their "flocks" as veritable "sheep" --- to be protected from the world and from themselves. So their evangelical seeds might have been said to have fallen on hard ground and to have developed very shallow roots. TV was just starting but we boomers did get to see some other families, other worlds (albeit families and worlds sugar coated by the Legion of Decency and its government supporters). These different worlds caused us to question many things. On the plus side we challenged violations of civil rights and foolish government policies --- though not always in the most effective ways. On the minus side we challenged (or were challenged by) the materialistic ways of the world.

With shallow roots many were tempted away. Vatican II "seemed" to be modernizing the Church and the perceived adaptation to the culture changed long-misunderstood beliefs. If it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Friday then it might not really be a sin to miss Mass, either. Since some bishops had been vociferous in their opposition to the Church's timeless ban on artificial birth control and really had created the whole concept of cafeteria Catholics, the "choices" made by some of the "flock" led to "guiltless" extramarital sex --- especially after the FDA approved the Pill (seemingly removing the temporal risk of pregnancy).

And the spiral was on IMHO.

And it did not help that the Academy not only exaggerated their post-modern philosophy and politics, they also adopted totalitarian social norms in which even the voicing of alternative views led to what is now becoming a ubiquitous process of public "shaming". Even one poster on this Board has threatened to institute his own investigative research of other Board members' identities so that he can "shame" their intolerance.

Then the so-called "New Atheists" tried to add more fuel to the fire by writing Amazon best-sellers with inane and specious reasoning, which the shallow-rooted "flock" could not evaluate on their own. But that's OK because the former got paid a LOT of money to prostitute themselves so.

So to me it is not surprising that many cradle Catholics have had their Faith diluted if not evaporated. That said I share your reaction when they do fall away.

BTW I quoted the 30,000 at Fatima because that was the lowest reported figure.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Alas, I fear that we Boomers did not do enough for the Gen-X and Millennials.

That may be true, but it seems to me that it was the culture shift of the 1960's that has left the Church where it is. Even the "greatest generation," who carried their prayer books to war, and were faithful into their old age, couldn't stop the fire. Their children either lost faith, or could no longer be bothered, and so future generations were ostensibly lost.

I was an altar boy, attended SHP and SHU, and couldn't say a bad word about a single priest I knew, yet on social media I see classmates venting bile against the Church and her ordained. Far too many of my friends have their children baptised, to never darken the doors of that place again.

How do you stop the hemorrhaging? I meet some young, very faithful SHU students/alums, and I take heart. In a culture that reviles what is good, true, and beautiful, there will always be detractors and defectors. We've also developed snap-judgement, and thin skin, and so many leave in the middle of a sermon, never to return. Let them go -- and pray for them -- the only one hurt by their protest is their own immortal soul. Keep the faith, "keep plugging," as John Allen at SHP was fond of saying.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Belluno]

We must not forget the reason the Blessed Mother appeared was to give us one more chance to appease God's displeasure with the way mankind was offending Him. If He was so offended in 1917, imagine how He must feel today: millions aborted, the very mention of God eliminated from our schools and public places, and the most recent travesty of homosexual "marriage".

Years later Sister Lucy wrote that the part of the last apparition that struck her most deeply was the prayer of the Blessed Mother begging us not to offend God any further as He is already so greatly offended. I guess we're showing Him that He can't threaten us.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

lol keep shaking that fist.

 

[SHUBigT]

The prophecies from Fatima are pretty frightening. I've heard some controversy surrounding the third secret of Fatima too. I'd be curious to get your take on that Belluno.

 

[Seton75]

I am certainly rather ignorant about Fatima, other than knowing that the Blessed Mother is said to have appeared at Fatima in the early part of the 20th Century. I read a bit in the net the other day about it. It is interesting how the conversion of Russia is deemed so important, in that most of the world is not even Christian. One may think that the conversion of followers of Islam or of the far Eastern religions may be of equal/greater concern. Of course, what do I know.

I was born Catholic. If I was born in Basra I would be Islam. In Toyko or China, probably another religion. I guess they all may be right. And maybe not. One religion today has sects who seem to want to kill all non believers and most wars in the world today involve this religion. And Europe snoozed - pretending to be ignorant - as the holocaust happened, starting about 80 years ago. And holocausts are happening as I type due to religious fervor in other parts of the world.

I am glad to have been born in a society where the teachings of Jesus are the ones taught to us. The struggle to follow his lead is one worth struggling at. I respect/admire/fear religious faith. FWIW

 

[Old_alum]

I am glad to have been born in a society where the teachings of Jesus are the ones taught to us. The struggle to follow his lead is one worth struggling at. I respect/admire/fear religious faith. FWIW

You've made my day, '75! Seriously! That is an acknowledgement that the "New Atheists" seem to abhor.

 

[Old_alum]

t seems to me that it was the culture shift of the 1960's that has left the Church where it is....Their children either lost faith, or could no longer be bothered, and so future generations were ostensibly lost.

I think this aligns with my earlier post, with "culture" changes led by TV, the Pill, and "gadgets".

I was an altar boy, attended SHP and SHU, and couldn't say a bad word about a single priest I knew, yet on social media I see classmates venting bile against the Church and her ordained.

The non-conscious brain (which directs 95%-99.9% of human decisions, per Kahnemann, Lipton and even Sam Harris) deals with large but vague generalizations, even among Ivy League college students tested. For now the "large but vague generalization" about the Catholic clergy is, sadly, the clerical abuse scandal. Almost no publicly-quoted person seems to take the time to analyze, evaluate and to "logically" --- let alone "emotionally" ---integrate the "facts".

How do you stop the hemorrhaging? I meet some young, very faithful SHU students/alums, and I take heart. In a culture that reviles what is good, true, and beautiful, there will always be detractors and defectors. We've also developed snap-judgement, and thin skin, and so many leave in the middle of a sermon, never to return.

The "good" now seems to be how one "feels".
The "beautiful" is now super-models not Mozart.
The "true" is now "relative". There is a great scene in the cartoon "Inside Out" --- about the brain of a 12 year old ---- in which two "boxes " get knocked over and the contents get mixed-up. One is labeled "facts" and the other "opinions". The character says, "Don't worry, now we treat them as the same thing."

The "snap" IMHO derives from the non-conscious MO of humans.

Let them go -- and pray for them -- the only one hurt by their protest is their own immortal soul. Keep the faith, "keep plugging," as John Allen at SHP was fond of saying.

One must "let them go". I hope all Christians do "pray" for them. But I also hope we can take random opportunities to discuss things with them, whenever and wherever they present themselves --- even on a basketball board.

The more I read and filter --- to discern --- the rhetoric of the new shamans, the more it seems to distill down to a new "mortal sin" for the post-modern society: being "judgmental". Forget the 4,000 year old precepts. It seems this has now moved past even "hypocrisy" at the top of the list. "Tolerance" no longer seems to mean that for differences of opinions people can "agree to disagree". Now the least threshold which any statement must meet is to be "laudatory"---"It's great that you are 'doing your thing' ('60s), being 'true to yourself' ('10s)" --- here's a trophy for participating!

The non-self-centered theology of just 20 years ago --- not 200 or 2,000 years --- now seems to be at least mocked or in the extreme prosecuted (socially for sure and legally if the plaintiff can get the proper funding).

Augustine, Francis and Aquinas seem to have been consigned to the same trash-bin as Plato, Aristotle, and Seneca. Now it seems that even Frankl and Solzhenitsyn and Gödel have been thus consigned.

Ignorance seems to be the new red badge of courage.

BUT ---- hard to believe ---- things have been worse!

 

[Seton75]

OA,do you think the typical practicing Catholic is any different than the world/people you describe?

 

[Old_alum]

OA,do you think the typical practicing Catholic is any different than the world/people you describe?

The two operative words are "typical" and "practicing".

As far as reliance on the non-conscious brain I fear they are probably indiscernable. That said, I pray that the truly practicing Catholic has the roots and receives the Grace that will induce their non-conscious brains in the right direction. I suspect---or at least hope---that they have the selfless discipline to "practice what (we) preach".

The mortal key is "truth". We must not only know the truth but recognize it as THE truth.

When it is watered down to be easier it loses more "Truth" than it gains taste. It is hollow and has no underlying appeal.

Jesus said it would be "hard". It is supposed to be hard ---- UNTIL you let Him do it for you. Then it is miraculous how easy ---- FUN even --- it can become,

When the conscious brain "trains" the non-conscious brain to ALWAYS check first with it, then it's more or a downhill pull--- still a pull, but gravity assisted, as it were.

I do see significant differences but more so in the "practicing" (believing) Catholics than in the merely "typical" ones,

 

[400SOAVE]

Seton75, when you say that "One religion today has sects who seem to want to kill all non believers and most wars in the world today involve this religion," are you referring to Muslims?

If so, why weren't you specific?

 

[Seton75]

I was not being specific because I was talking about religion in general. I mentioned no religion when mentioning the holocaust.
Of course I was speaking about muslims re the wars in the world. Isn't that as obvious as the holocaust? The point was religious fervor can make man inhumane, and religious prejudice helped Europeans to turn their back on to or participate in the holocaust.

 

[400SOAVE]

Some people here seem mystified by the decline in popularity of Catholicism.

Let me take a crack at this.

-Perhaps it's the fact that so many priests have sexually abused boys.
-Perhaps it's the fact that church leaders knew it was happening and covered it up, leading to continued criminal behavior by PRIESTS!

-With the high rate of divorce, you cannot get married in the church (unless you're rich and a coke-snorting celebrity, in which case you can get married at any cathedral and you'll be welcomed with open arms.) This leads to many people starting a new life away from the church. It costs a lot of money for a divorcee to get in the good graces of the church. So they rent a hall instead.

-Ask any of your children and grandchildren if they've been to a wedding in the last five years. How many actually had a ceremony inside a church? Why are young couples opting for a beautiful park near a stream rather than a church?

-How about the direct role the Catholic church is playing in encouraging and assisting illegal immigration?

-How about the fact that the pope seems more like a leftist/socialist politician than a man of God?

-I was in a hospital room two months ago when someone passed away. The young Filipino priest who was called was obviously annoyed when he arrived because the person had passed away before he got there. That's not what he was expecting. Afterwards he actually said," Next time please call before the person has passed."

I wanted to tell him to go F himself.

-I won't even go into the ugly history of mass murder and torture in the name of the Pope.

There's an expression called death by a thousand cuts. Millions of Catholics have left the church because of a thousand cuts.

Nevertheless, I'm Catholic. I truly love Jesus. However, years ago I lost faith in the institution and the hierarchy.

I don't even feel comfortable in church anymore. I feel like I'm listening to a political sermon, especially if the priest is from Asia or South America. There's a political statement every time I go. I really don't want to listen.

Finally, anybody who says I'm not being factual has no clue what's going on.

 

[400SOAVE]

I was not being specific because I was talking about religion in general. I mentioned no religion when mentioning the holocaust.
Of course I was speaking about muslims re the wars in the world. Isn't that as obvious as the holocaust? The point was religious fervor can make man inhumane, and religious prejudice helped Europeans to turn their back on to or participate in the holocaust.

If had been alive in Europe in the late 1930s and early 1940s and I see that bombs are dropping all around me, whole cities are being destroyed and that people are dying by the tens of millions, I don't think my mind would have been on preventing the holocaust, which at the time, at least 95 percent of people had no idea was going on. (I'm talking about the mass murder.)

I've interviewed several people who fought in WW2 in Europe and they didn't know it was happening. Most basically knew what was happening in the area where they were standing. We're talking at least 30 million dead in WW2. It could be as high as 40 million. Nobody really knows. That's how insane it was.

And we came close to losing the war.

It's easy to say now that this and that should have been done. I frequently hear that we should have bombed certain railroad lines. But we weren't alive and living there and frightened to death for ourselves and our families.

Perhaps we'll know more in the coming decades. There are still millions of classified WW2 documents, which is ridiculous.

 

[400SOAVE]

I was not being specific because I was talking about religion in general. I mentioned no religion when mentioning the holocaust.
Of course I was speaking about muslims re the wars in the world. Isn't that as obvious as the holocaust? The point was religious fervor can make man inhumane, and religious prejudice helped Europeans to turn their back on to or participate in the holocaust.

I asked because I believe that's part of the problem.

So many people don't want to say that Muslims are committing so many acts of terrorism. How many times have we heard on the news this year that a Muslim in the U.S. is trying to help ISIS.

How many military personnel have to be murdered in the U.S. before we unabashedly say that it's Muslims.

Don't be shy, bashful or intimidated to speak up. If you have the facts to back up your statement, say it loud and say it often.

 

[Seton75]

I think the knowledge of the holocaust was greater than we think, and that antisemitism was far more widespread than we wish to believe. I have no reason to think our soldiers knew.

 

[TC88]

Some people here seem mystified by the decline in popularity of Catholicism.

Let me take a crack at this..........

-How about the fact that the pope seems more like a leftist/socialist politician than a man of God?


.......Finally, anybody who says I'm not being factual has no clue what's going on.

You are not being factual. Pope Francis is bringing Americans back to the church. Check the polls. Check the excitement about his visit. Look at his popularity with American youth. Maybe Jesus was a leftist/socialist too?

 

[400SOAVE]

88, at least you're not denying what the Pope is- a supporter of a system that has destroyed the economy of very country that has adopted it.

Now don't come back with a ridiculous statement that some European countries are kind of socialist.

Back to the church, you say? Have you noticed how many Catholic schools and parishes have closed in the NY metro area over the last decade? It's quite alarming. It's very sad to witness.

You could get a great education at Catholic schools. It was also a good way to get your kids away from the abominable atmosphere at many public schools. Can you imagine that public schools are so bad that parents of multiple religions opt to pay to send their kids to Catholic school.

The people who run Catholic schools in NYC are such great individuals. I know they're trying to do everything possible to save the system.

 

[Belluno]

I can agree with much of what you've said, Soave, and actually, I could double or triple the length of your rant with other complaints and observations, some petty, some serious. But that is not why I started this thread and I'm sorry it's been hijacked.

My point is that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Christ Himself. Despite bad Popes, perverted priests and bishops, and a host of other human failings by priests and laity both, God's divine mercy shines through, in this instance, as in many others, with the appearance of His Blessed Mother. His mercy is unending for those who reach out to Him. We simply have to ignore the human frailty we see close up sometimes and dwell on the overwhelming love He showers on us in His sacraments and prayers. I sense that you're doing that and I wish you well.

But why are you upset with the Filipino priest who was merely expressing dismay at not being able to aid in a soul's passage into eternal life? I would think your anger would be directed at the person(s) who failed to summon him in a timely fashion. This is of particular concern to me, as my Protestant wife has no understanding of the importance of Extreme Unction. For years I've been drilling the thought into her: When my time is near, call the priest first and the doctor second. I hope this time she listens to me.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Some people here seem mystified by the decline in popularity of Catholicism.

Let me take a crack at this.

-Perhaps it's the fact that so many priests have sexually abused boys.
-Perhaps it's the fact that church leaders knew it was happening and covered it up, leading to continued criminal behavior by PRIESTS!

No argument that these things are horrific, but you can't discount the cultural shift; I know parents who stopped going to Mass because it interfered with their childrens' sports schedules. A failure on human grounds doesn't invalidate the theology. Many of us have only had positive experiences with the clergy.

-With the high rate of divorce, you cannot get married in the church (unless you're rich and a coke-snorting celebrity, in which case you can get married at any cathedral and you'll be welcomed with open arms.) This leads to many people starting a new life away from the church. It costs a lot of money for a divorcee to get in the good graces of the church. So they rent a hall instead.

OK, that's a little silly. I had to write a letter, to the Diocese, for a friend who got an annulment a few years back. The process is definitely some hoops, but those who are motivated will jump through them. Others, well, they could always rent a hall (probably even the KOC), and would probably leave the Church anyway.

-Ask any of your children and grandchildren if they've been to a wedding in the last five years. How many actually had a ceremony inside a church? Why are young couples opting for a beautiful park near a stream rather than a church?

All but one of the weddings I've been to, in the last five years, including my own, have been in one church or another. The other was a non-religious bride, and a Catholic (in name only) groom. If the groom had the desire, or the upbringing, I'm sure the bride would have married him in the Church. They had a Star Wars theme. True enlightenment.

-How about the direct role the Catholic church is playing in encouraging and assisting illegal immigration?

Please elaborate. Those who are pro-capital punishment would disagree about the Church's role there, too.

-How about the fact that the pope seems more like a leftist/socialist politician than a man of God?

He's a Jesuit! Now YOU sound political!

-I was in a hospital room two months ago when someone passed away. The young Filipino priest who was called was obviously annoyed when he arrived because the person had passed away before he got there. That's not what he was expecting. Afterwards he actually said," Next time please call before the person has passed."

I wanted to tell him to go F himself.

Imagine, him wanting to administer last rites while the person was alive!

-I won't even go into the ugly history of mass murder and torture in the name of the Pope.

So people are leaving the Church now, because of atrocities in the Dark Ages? Wow; if they were such history buffs, they would know that the Crusades have been grossly overstated by the anti-religious, of late.

There's an expression called death by a thousand cuts. Millions of Catholics have left the church because of a thousand cuts.

I've seen that; again, I'm wagering that more falling away is general laziness and materialism. The Crusades are a good excuse, though!

Nevertheless, I'm Catholic. I truly love Jesus. However, years ago I lost faith in the institution and the hierarchy.
I don't even feel comfortable in church anymore. I feel like I'm listening to a political sermon, especially if the priest is from Asia or South America. There's a political statement every time I go. I really don't want to listen.

I sincerely hope the hierarchy does straighten things out. This Pope you have such distaste for seems to be moving in the right direction on the abuse scandal. Sorry you feel that way about the homilies you listen to -- really political, or dogma as it relates to the world we live in?

Finally, anybody who says I'm not being factual has no clue what's going on.

I guess that's the end of discussion, then!

 

[Seton75]

It is interesting that the one Christian religion that is thriving is the evangelical faction.

 

[400SOAVE]

donnie, let's forget about the Middle Ages. Let's bring it into the 20th and 21st centuries.

While Communists were murdering tens of millions of people, how many priests collaborated with those same Communists?

Pope Benedict even tried to make one of those collaborators into a Cardinal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/06/world/europe/06poland.html?_r=0

Even today in 2015, the cardinal in Cuba says nothing against the repression. Nothing.

The truth can be very ugly and hard to accept. Yet it's undeniable.

Death by a thousand cuts.

 

[400SOAVE]

Here are some stats:

http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html

 

[400SOAVE]

So the Catholic church is not encouraging illegal immigration?

Here's what the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has to say about illegal immigration and the "first duty" of government.

The Catholic Catechism instructs the faithful that good government has two duties, both of which must be carried out and neither of which can be ignored. The first duty is to welcome the foreigner out of charity and respect for the human person. Persons have the right to immigrate and thus government must accommodate this right to the greatest extent possible, especially financially blessed nations: "The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him." Catholic Catechism, 2241.

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...gration/churchteachingonimmigrationreform.cfm

I guess they also want us to make sure to share the wealth.

 

[Belluno]

Next time, start your own thread

 

[Merge]

So the Catholic church is not encouraging illegal immigration?

Dude... seriously. You are being a little crazy.
What should their stance be? Self deportation?

Of course the first duty would be to treat the immigrants with dignity. WWJD?

and why would you completely ignore the second duty which is to protect the border?

 

[donnie_baseball]

It is interesting that the one Christian religion that is thriving is the evangelical faction.

75, I find that interesting too. Many people that I've spoken to about it, former Catholics who are now evangelicals, complained that they "weren't getting what they needed," either out of Mass, or Catholicism, in general. Many of these are literalists, regarding the Bible, and some, I fear, are young earth creationists. I respect all people of sincere faith, but it's hard being lumped in with evolution-deniers -- it makes it easy for the anti-religious to throw stones about ignorance.

On the other hand, another woman I know was cheated on and went through an ugly divorce and now attends some service on Sundays aimed at young people, sounds like some kind of social meeting with a couple of prayers, recited from the Iphones of the congregants. Not sure what it's about, but she finds it "more interesting" than Catholic Mass.

No doubt the Catholic Church has created many of her own problems, but that often has NOTHING to do with why people leave, and is a handy excuse, in many cases.

 

[Vegas pj]

After reading this thread, all I can say is "praise The Lord and pass the ammunition! " Wow, to think Fatima could cause this debate.

 

[donnie_baseball]

After reading this thread, all I can say is "praise The Lord and pass the ammunition! " Wow, to think Fatima could cause this debate.

What has Pearl Harbor got to do with anything? Must have seemed funny when you typed it.