HILLARY- Godforbid!

[knowknow456]

In North Carolina, one of the states the court recently ruled on, Valid ID is one of the following - Drivers License, Passport, unexpired Military ID, Tribal card, valid Drivers License from another state (within 90 days of election), expired ID as long as the card was issued before you were 70 and expired after you were 70.

In NC my mother would not be eligible to vote .In my opinion the criteria listed above are too restrictive for voting. Preventing voter fraud at the individual level is a worthy goal but I believe the benefits of full voter participation greatly outweigh the risk of a potential for increased voter fraud. Organized voter fraud is a different story. The penalty for actively overstating the vote should be as severe as the penalty for actively suppressing the vote.

 

[SPK145]

There should be some kind of government-issued photo ID available, like the old county ID back in my days. (Although those were easy to falsify and many did in order to underage drink. Not me, I looked like I was 12 even after I was of drinking age of 18. Hey wait, that was mighty racist making me show photo ID to drinkl!!)

 

[Merge]

I already agreed with you about making ID's available before making them mandatory. When anyone starts spouting about how "their" party is the good guys, and the other side is the bad guys, that's when I start thinking how much easier life would be if I, too, had a lobotomy.

I'm not a democrat... They just happen to be on the right side of this issue. If poor minorities voted for republicans, I would have the same opinion for republicans and they would be on the right side. Both parties are shit.

Again, fix the issue with people being able to obtain ID's before requiring them to vote. Really simple. Announce it now for the 2020 election that all citizens will need an ID to vote, and if you can't provide an ID for the 2016 election, you will be signed up for a free state assistance program to obtain one. Done.

Will republicans support a bill that costs money for typically liberal voters to have access to the ID's? Would democrats support a bill that requires additional effort to get an ID?

 

[knowknow456]

There should be some kind of government-issued photo ID available, like the old county ID back in my days. (Although those were easy to falsify and many did in order to underage drink. Not me, I looked like I was 12 even after I was of drinking age of 18. Hey wait, that was mighty racist making me show photo ID to drinkl!!)

Are you saying you are in favor of more government intrusion and oversight to cover the 10-15% of the people who don't have either a Driver's License or a Passport? I would think that puts you in the minority of Libertarian orthodoxy. Wouldn't those tax dollars be better spent upgrading our antiquated voting machines or some other such thing?

Also, since you have brought it up on more than one occasion - do you really need ID for the lottery? I have never won a sizeable lottery but my meager winnings never required ID of any kind. I always was under the impression the ticket was a bearer bond of sorts. You have it...you own it.

As far as Welfare and other related social programs, is the issue to be addressed really ID related or income related? The proof of ID is substantiated primarily by an earnings test. Also, ID fraud is a little harder to pull off since unlike voting, which occurs at a very granular district level, applying for welfare programs starts at the state level - increasing the difficulty of creating multiple identities.

 

[SPK145]

Who said anything about free ID's? And no database of ID's other than Social Security number which the governemnt alteady has. May help root out the illegals as well. Rather that than all the excuses for not being abke to identify one's self.

Large, taxable lottery winnings require photo ID and we all know the poor and downtrodden spend more of their money on such silliness.

Welfare starts at the state and county level, at least in NJ it does. Both are inefficient at screening anybody out.

 

[knowknow456]

And no database of ID's other than Social Security number which the governemnt alteady has.

The issue is photo ID. I do not have a photo on my Social Security Card

Large, taxable lottery winnings require photo ID

Why?

we all know the poor and downtrodden spend more of their money on such silliness.

Perhaps, however, that is a discussion for a different thread. In my case, if I were poor and downtrodden, I would continue to play the lottery and figure out how to get a photo ID after I won. God knows, I would not not play in fear that I would win but wouldn't have an ID

Welfare starts at the state and county level, at least in NJ it does. Both are inefficient at screening anybody out.

So if I understand correctly your argument is something along the lines of
1. Welfare requires photo ID so voting should as well
2. Welfare is inefficient at screening anybody out

It would sort of follow Voter photo ID would be equally inefficient. I continue to believe our resources are better spent in other areas.

 

[SPK145]

The issue is photo ID. I do not have a photo on my Social Security Card.

No, the issue was this from your post from earlier today:

"Are you saying you are in favor of more government intrusion and oversight"

I'm saying there wouldn't be more government intrusion other than having your social security number on the photo ID, which the the government already has, hence no FURTHER government intrusion.

Large lottery winnings, large gambling winnings all require a photo ID. I've won a few poker tournaments in Atlantic City. Guess what? I needed a photo ID to collect my winnings. Atlantic City casinos, NJ Gaming Commission, NJ Lottery, all racist bastards???

Just makes good common sense to require photo ID (and biometrics as that technology advances) for just about all things where an identity is needed. Should have been done a long time ago. Far too many excuses for such a small percentage of the population that doesn't have a photo ID. And would seem to help in the fight against identity theft and illegal immigration.

 

[knowknow456]

Again, in North Carolina if you don't currently drive or travel overseas, are an American Indian or on active military duty, you cannot vote. You say you want the government to create a photo ID for those people(with Biometrics!). That cannot happen out of the air. It will involve more government resources. And again, most Libertarians are not fond of expanding government tracking (good God man, Biometrics?) And all of this is to solve a problem (voter fraud) that may not be widespread.

I asked why gamblers need photo ID and you didn't answer but you did tell a good story about how you have won money in AC. Congrats! I have a friend who does well in AC poker tournaments, alas I am not one of them. The answer has nothing to do with the NJ Gaming Commission being racist bastards, they simply want to make sure they get their tax dollars. Rest assured, if you were one of those people with out a valid photo ID they would hold your money until they were satisfied you were who you claimed to be. However, the lack of a photo ID would not preclude you from winning.

 

[SPK145]

First off, a Libertarian is one who is a member of a political party. A libertarian is an one who subscribes to an ideology. There's actually a pretty big difference. And there are varying degress of libertarianism from bordering on anarchy to classical liberalism.

I just see a bunch of hypocrisy here. 7% of people don't have photo ID so certain special interest groups don't have to provide them for certain things yet other special interest groups do have to provide them for other certain things.

One of the tenets of libertarianism is fairness and I see very little.

 

[Muggsy Blue]

SPK

You're not really expecting fairness on this board, particularly when the tenor becomes political, now are you? Either walk in lock step or stay off. If you need to explain to posters that Libertarianism is an idealology and a Political Party, then you might as well give up,.

 

[shu09]

There should be some kind of government-issued photo ID available

A driver's license is a readily available government ID.

 

[SPK145]

A driver's license is a readily available government ID.

Not according to many here, it's an undue burden.

 

[shu09]

Not according to many here, it's an undue burden.

I disagree with those who say it is.

 

[Seton75]

People in urban areas often have no drivers license. Oops, what a coincidence. ..

 

[HALL85]

People in urban areas often have no drivers license. Oops, what a coincidence. ..

Not because it's a burden to get one.

 

[Merge]

Millions of Americans don't have or need one. My grandmother who passed away last year never had one in her lifetime.... Yes it would have been an undue burden for her to go get one just to vote. Anecdotal, but again we are not talking about a few one offs, we are talking a about 5% of the voting aged population! That is a huge number.

Again, this issue is incredibly more simplistic than what this conversation has turned into.

Should we require a voter ID? Yes.

Should we ensure all citizens have the ability to obtain one before cutting off their right to vote? YES!

The idea that people can support the first part while ignoring the second is mind boggling.

 

[shu09]

Should we ensure all citizens have the ability to obtain one before cutting off their right to vote? YES!

Every citizen has the ability to obtain one. They can get a ride to their local DMV and get it taken care of.

 

[cernjSHU]

In NJ, we do not need photo ID to vote. As a corrupt state as so many on this board has pointed out, how come there is no voter fraud in NJ? We have a large urban population and without any need to show photo ID, where is the wide spread fraud that people like SPK and shu09 fear?

SPK, as I answered in a previous post, you need ID to collect a lottery for fear of fraud and tax purposes, you need Photo ID for an airplane for security concerns, you need photo ID for banking due to illegal financial transactions like money laundering and bank fraud. Voter fraud is nearly non-existent in NJ. Why is this need in other States?

 

[HALL85]

In NJ, we do not need photo ID to vote. As a corrupt state as so many on this board has pointed out, how come there is no voter fraud in NJ? We have a large urban population and without any need to show photo ID, where is the wide spread fraud that people like SPK and shu09 fear?

SPK, as I answered in a previous post, you need ID to collect a lottery for fear of fraud and tax purposes, you need Photo ID for an airplane for security concerns, you need photo ID for banking due to illegal financial transactions like money laundering and bank fraud. Voter fraud is nearly non-existent in NJ. Why is this need in other States?

How do we know we don't have voter fraud in NJ? Just because it hasn't been reported doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[donnie_baseball]

How do we know we don't have voter fraud in NJ? Just because it hasn't been reported doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Absolutely. We've heard so much about what party is helped or hurt by who votes and doesn't vote. In a categorically Democratic state, if fraud is going on in Newark, Trenton, and Camden, I'm sure the Democrats would be running to the press with it. It's blind to think that there's none. Hell, if I knew cern's name and address, I could find out where his polling center is, go there as soon as the polls open, say I'm him and vote Trump. Done. Not because I want Trump to win, but because it would drive cern to apoplexy.

 

[Merge]

Every citizen has the ability to obtain one. They can get a ride to their local DMV and get it taken care of.

#1. That's absurd. You're taxing poor people who don't drive just to vote. They will end up not voting. Voter ID cards if obtained for no other purpose other than voting should be free.

#2. The article I posted earlier shows the trouble people had obtaining ID when they don't have access to their original documentation. We need to ensure that is not happening before we restrict their ability to vote.

 

[Merge]

How do we know we don't have voter fraud in NJ? Just because it hasn't been reported doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

How do we know there are not people driving on the parkway without a drivers license?

Let's just assume guilt and force everyone who enters the highway to show ID.

 

[knowknow456]

Of course voter fraud exists. It would be unrealistic to think otherwise. The good news is there is government oversight in place that monitors elections and investigates claims of voter fraud. The better news is we have two political parties that oversee the overseers to make sure the results are accurate.

 

[knowknow456]

If there are 200,000,000 eligible voters, we can estimate (for the sake of argument) that 90% could provide a Drivers License or Passport.

For the 20,000,000 who for whatever reason do not currently have those documents, let's assume that 75% could, with burden but not undue burden, (the definition of burden does not need to be defined here) obtain those documents.

What should be done with the remaining 5,000,000 that would be fair to the process and to the people?

 

[donnie_baseball]

If there are 200,000,000 eligible voters, we can estimate (for the sake of argument) that 90% could provide a Drivers License or Passport.

For the 20,000,000 who for whatever reason do not currently have those documents, let's assume that 75% could, with burden but not undue burden, (the definition of burden does not need to be defined here) obtain those documents.

What should be done with the remaining 5,000,000 that would be fair to the process and to the people?

You'd be amazed how many cars on the road are "checked for ID" by the automatic plate readers. To your question: I like SPK's "idea" - maybe offer replacement SS cards, at the local branches, with photo ID.

 

[knowknow456]

Photo ID from SSA could work although I am not sure the cost of implementing a new Federal procedure. In NJ at least, the DMV could do the job. A person can get a non license photo ID.

The problem isn't the picture, it is the documents (six points) you need to prove who you are. We have to consider the possibility that there are legitimate reasons why people cannot verify who they are and at some point the verification rises to the level of an undue burden.

Even 1% of 200,000,000 leaves 2,000,000 disenfranchised. These are not fraudulent voters. Is there a way to allow them to vote that is fair to the process and to them?

 

[Seton75]

Every citizen has the ability to obtain one. They can get a ride to their local DMV and get it taken care of.

I don't have a gun permit cause I don't own a gun. Why get a licence to drive if you haven't got a car nor do your associates. It is DRIVERS licence. It has nothing to do with voting. This is a bullshit move to supress the vote. If the dems could come up with a similar scam, maybe they would go for it. But after all is said and done, we all know what thus us about.

 

[shu09]

Because it's the standard form of photo identification in this country. Pretty simple.

While its main purpose is for driving, that is not its only purpose. Unlike a gun permit, which has a single use. A ridiculous comparison, honestly.

 

[HALL85]

Taking all partisan views out of the equation, why wouldn't you want a voter photo ID?

 

[Merge]

Taking all partisan views out of the equation, why wouldn't you want a voter photo ID?

I do. I just think it is wrong to force the use of them prior to ensuring that all citizens who want one can get one for free.

 

[shu09]

Taking all partisan views out of the equation, why wouldn't you want a voter photo ID?

This is the way I see it. I'm not looking at it from a partisan perspective. I'm looking at it from the perspective that there may or may not be voter fraud and driver's licenses are very easy to obtain.

 

[Merge]

This is the way I see it. I'm not looking at it from a partisan perspective. I'm looking at it from the perspective that there may or may not be voter fraud and driver's licenses are very easy to obtain.

For you and I it is.... For millions of people who do not have one, and have never had one it is not nearly as simple.

 

[knowknow456]

Once you take partisan views out of the equation, the answer is easy. While a driver's license is the gold standard of identification, there are many other forms of ID that will satisfy the test for establishing a voter's identification. Voting ID is as much about where you vote as who you are.

As for voter fraud, I anticipate that it occurs at about equal rates across party lines.

 

[HALL85]

This really underscores what is wrong with our political system. To create a voter ID and plan to implement it would probably take a half dozen smart people maybe a couple of hours to figure it out. It's the right thing to do and if we value importance of a citizens vote and voice in the process, who would possibly be against it? The problem as we know is that our political leadership can't do anything without it becoming a partisan shit-show. And we wonder how an "outsider" has emerged from their incompetence.

 

[knowknow456]

We are a democracy; partisan shit-show comes with the territory. Having your say is important even if it slows the wheels of progress. Being partisan is ok in and of itself but it would be helpful if partisans were able to compromise from time to time.

 

[SPK145]

We are a democracy;

No we're not, we're a republic.

And we've kicked this can down the road too many times (like mots issues).

 

[Merge]

This really underscores what is wrong with our political system. To create a voter ID and plan to implement it would probably take a half dozen smart people maybe a couple of hours to figure it out. It's the right thing to do and if we value importance of a citizens vote and voice in the process, who would possibly be against it? The problem as we know is that our political leadership can't do anything without it becoming a partisan shit-show. And we wonder how an "outsider" has emerged from their incompetence.

I absolutely agree with you. This is not that difficult of a problem to fix... But politicians are not looking for a fix, they are looking for an exploit to help them win elections.

 

[Seton75]

Taking all partisan views out of the equation, why wouldn't you want a voter photo ID?

No one ever challenged my right to vote. I show up the last 40 years and sign in and vote. No one says boo.

Voter fraud is not a big problem (there donnie I said it again) and all of us know it has nothing to do with the genesis of this proposal. I object to the intent of this law. And the lack of thought given to the logistics of getting a card. "Learn to drive a car and you can vote" how f'ing idiot is that

A drivers licence is the wrong vehicle. It is no different than asking me to show my gun permit to vote.

We want voters to require an ID . Make a national ID card. Give it some thought. That I do not object to.

 

[knowknow456]

No we're not, we're a republic.

Thanks, you are correct.

 

[Section112]

I absolutely agree with you. This is not that difficult of a problem to fix... But politicians are not looking for a fix, they are looking for an exploit to help them win elections.

Glad you finally said it. Politicians on both sides. One side does not win here they both suck. and I am comfortable with my position on this.