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Is this the biggest sports superstar to fall from the top of the mountain?

Tiger? Well, he cheated on his wife. Multiple times. Got busted doing it, humiliated his family. Lost endorsements. Then it comes out he's addicted to painkillers and other prescription medication. Now this....how many times has this guy been caught cheating, lying, abusing medication, crashing cars, checking himself into rehab etc.....All of this stuff happened on his own watch, on his own terms, and none of these were a direct result of any single action. This is a continued downward spiral of a historic athlete. He was the world's face for a global sport.
This is O.J., too, except that O.J. also decapitated his wife and her friend. So, I'm gonna give a slight edge to O.J.'s precipitous fall from grace. That non-isolated incident, the culmination of years of abuse he inflicted, is a pretty big distinguishing factor between him and a guy who pops painkillers and frequently cheats on his wife. Hell, I know and have worked with people like that. I never knew anyone who butchered his own wife...
 
This is O.J., too, except that O.J. also decapitated his wife and her friend. So, I'm gonna give a slight edge to O.J.'s precipitous fall from grace. That non-isolated incident, the culmination of years of abuse he inflicted, is a pretty big distinguishing factor between him and a guy who pops painkillers and frequently cheats on his wife. Hell, I know and have worked with people like that. I never knew anyone who butchered his own wife...

I have to disagree. If you say he did these things, then he's a monster. Monsters are always monsters, it simply means he finally acted out his true nature. Monsters don't "fall from grace" because they never had grace to begin with. Tiger had it all, and he didn't lose it via a single defining moment in his life. This has been a slow, gradual, self-inflicted decline. There is no rage, no insanity, no "moment of passion".....

Watching a successful, spirited individual slowly piss it all down the drain is much in the definition of "the fall" to me than watching someone similar decide to just immediately become a menace to society and burn it all down in the blink of an eye.
 
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This is O.J., too, except that O.J. also decapitated his wife and her friend. So, I'm gonna give a slight edge to O.J.'s precipitous fall from grace. That non-isolated incident, the culmination of years of abuse he inflicted, is a pretty big distinguishing factor between him and a guy who pops painkillers and frequently cheats on his wife. Hell, I know and have worked with people like that. I never knew anyone who butchered his own wife...

Allegedly...?

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"If they don't fit you must acquit."

His acquittal was an embarrassment to our legal system.
 
Allow me to make a request of all of you. Our jury system is broken. And one of the reasons it's broken that normal hard working citizens do not want to be on a jury. So anyone who has a good job is smart enough to know how to get off of jury duty.

What an overwhelming amount of jurors that actually can hear a lengthy 4-6 week murder trial are the retired, the unemployed, and some government workers who get paid for it. The jury system needs all the citizens to participate in order to have good jurors.

I have seen it far too many times that despite overwhelming evidence of a defendant's guilt, one person will hang the jury or make sure the defendant is convicted of a lesser charge. It is disheartening when you hear a smart person who would make a great juror, make up some excuse so they can't serve. I urge you and you to urge others to serve on a jury. The system needs you.
 
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I have to disagree. If you say he did these things, then he's a monster. Monsters are always monsters, it simply means he finally acted out his true nature. Monsters don't "fall from grace" because they never had grace to begin with. Tiger had it all, and he didn't lose it via a single defining moment in his life. This has been a slow, gradual, self-inflicted decline. There is no rage, no insanity, no "moment of passion".....

Watching a successful, spirited individual slowly piss it all down the drain is much in the definition of "the fall" to me than watching someone similar decide to just immediately become a menace to society and burn it all down in the blink of an eye.
And again, "Watching a successful, spirited individual slowly piss it all down the drain" is exactly what O.J. did. The murders, as dramatic as they were, represented the culmination of events that contributed to his ultimate undoing. O.J. was 46 when he killed, and had not been considered a "monster" all those years before that. On the contrary, he was celebrated by all because of what was perceived as a transcendent grace, that his skills and appeal extended well beyond the field of play (where Tiger's ended, by the way, because of his wooden personality).

With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that neither guy is what we'd call a good person. Tiger hasn't killed anyone (though at his age, O.J. hadn't either), but like O.J., he's haunted by demons and has a dark side that people still seem hesitant to confront. If there is one thing that distinguishes one from the other during their "glory years," it's that O.J. was able to conceal that fact that he was, in fact, a jerk, while Tiger never was. If you paid attention, it was obvious pretty early on that he wasn't likeable and became easy to root against. It's great that he "democratized" golf and made it accessible to people who had theretofore never considered golf an option (though it's effect seems to have been temporary), but he was never someone whose personality made him easy to embrace. All the more reason why his "fall" wasn't a fraction as precipitous as that of O.J.
 
And again, "Watching a successful, spirited individual slowly piss it all down the drain" is exactly what O.J. did. The murders, as dramatic as they were, represented the culmination of events that contributed to his ultimate undoing. O.J. was 46 when he killed, and had not been considered a "monster" all those years before that. On the contrary, he was celebrated by all because of what was perceived as a transcendent grace, that his skills and appeal extended well beyond the field of play (where Tiger's ended, by the way, because of his wooden personality).

With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that neither guy is what we'd call a good person. Tiger hasn't killed anyone (though at his age, O.J. hadn't either), but like O.J., he's haunted by demons and has a dark side that people still seem hesitant to confront. If there is one thing that distinguishes one from the other during their "glory years," it's that O.J. was able to conceal that fact that he was, in fact, a jerk, while Tiger never was. If you paid attention, it was obvious pretty early on that he wasn't likeable and became easy to root against. It's great that he "democratized" golf and made it accessible to people who had theretofore never considered golf an option (though it's effect seems to have been temporary), but he was never someone whose personality made him easy to embrace. All the more reason why his "fall" wasn't a fraction as precipitous as that of O.J.

With all due respect, I don't think I need to be told that I wasn't "paying attention".

It was pretty obvious early on and for a long time that MANY people loved Tiger Woods. He was, literally, a champion for minorities, for young people, and for those that just appreciate dominance in sports. He brought a breath of fresh air to, what many believed, was a very "old" and "stuffy" pastime.

Perhaps you and your constituents or circles found it easy to root against him, but I attribute that as more confirmation bias on your part and generalizing because of it.

Being liked, being friendly, etc has nothing to do with the topic either. And again, he was literally one of the most recognizable faces on the planet, known for being the VERY BEST IN THE WORLD. OJ, on his best day, wasn't anywhere close to that in any form or capacity.

You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, and I think with that said I will choose to bow out of this otherwise pointless board topic. Cheers
 
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It was pretty obvious early on and for a long time that MANY people loved Tiger Woods. He was, literally, a champion for minorities, for young people, and for those that just appreciate dominance in sports. He brought a breath of fresh air to, what many believed, was a very "old" and "stuffy" pastime.
This certainly contributed to Tiger's greatness, especially early on. I loved the "breath of fresh air" he brought to the game, and way his presence exposed jealous old bigots like Fuzzy Zoeller. I'm grateful for his having come along, if only for that.

But his unlikability isn't really subjective. It was the unspoken secret among the sports media, who dared not criticize him for fear of being shut out of interviews. He wasn't popular on the tour (racism and jealousy notwithstanding), and that was because of his personality. It wasn't my "circle," which doesn't discuss golf much one way or the other.

This doesn't diminish his athletic greatness, but in contrasting him with O.J., I brought up ways in which to distinguish between the two, given (despite your refusal to acknowledge) that O.J. was also the very best in the world. The fact that he isn't as contemporary as Tiger doesn't lessen what he was on the field.

I do concede that we're unlikely to agree, and that's fine, too.
 
Allow me to make a request of all of you. Our jury system is broken. And one of the reasons it's broken that normal hard working citizens do not want to be on a jury. So anyone who has a good job is smart enough to know how to get off of jury duty.

What an overwhelming amount of jurors that actually can hear a lengthy 4-6 week murder trial are the retired, the unemployed, and some government workers who get paid for it. The jury system needs all the citizens to participate in order to have good jurors.

I have seen it far too many times that despite overwhelming evidence of a defendant's guilt, one person will hang the jury or make sure the defendant is convicted of a lesser charge. It is disheartening when you hear a smart person who would make a great juror, make up some excuse so they can't serve. I urge you and you to urge others to serve on a jury. The system needs you.
Maybe the legal system works way to slow compared to the real world? Maybe that 4-6 week trial could occur in a week or two? Maybe lawyers should get to the point quicker and present cases quicker and stop dragging everything out because they like to hear themselves talk or because they are not prepared? Maybe judges should stop allowing all of these breaks and continuances? Maybe a trial should be allowed to start at 8 AM and continue to 6 PM so it gets done and people can go back to work? Most courts work bankers hours of the past. The system needs to get more efficient. If trials are shorter and occur more efficiently and actually have a determined beginning and end, maybe more citizens would be more open to sitting on jury's? The way things work it's we have adjourned for this, can we get an extension, this case will not be ready for trial for one year etc. I know its way more complicated than that but the legal world has to at least get their act into the current century because it's just way too much standing around and adjournments and delays for real people to volunteer to sit on a jury for even a simple case that could take 3 hours in court but that drags out over 3 days? From a past juror's perspective.
 
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I think that the depiction/portrayal of Tiger Woods in this thread is very wrong.
 
Maybe the legal system works way to slow compared to the real world? Maybe that 4-6 week trial could occur in a week or two? Maybe lawyers should get to the point quicker and present cases quicker and stop dragging everything out because they like to hear themselves talk or because they are not prepared? Maybe judges should stop allowing all of these breaks and continuances? Maybe a trial should be allowed to start at 8 AM and continue to 6 PM so it gets done and people can go back to work? Most courts work bankers hours of the past. The system needs to get more efficient. If trials are shorter and occur more efficiently and actually have a determined beginning and end, maybe more citizens would be more open to sitting on jury's? The way things work it's we have adjourned for this, can we get an extension, this case will not be ready for trial for one year etc. I know its way more complicated than that but the legal world has to at least get their act into the current century because it's just way too much standing around and adjournments and delays for real people to volunteer to sit on a jury for even a simple case that could take 3 hours in court but that drags out over 3 days? From a past juror's perspective.

You really think lawyers want to drag out a trial longer than it has to be? How long do you expect a human being to watch people testify for before zoning out? You think the average juror can pay attention for 8-10 hours a day?

It's interesting to hear from someone who served on a jury. I'd like to hear what specifically was good or bad during your experience.
 
You really think lawyers want to drag out a trial longer than it has to be? How long do you expect a human being to watch people testify for before zoning out? You think the average juror can pay attention for 8-10 hours a day?

It's interesting to hear from someone who served on a jury. I'd like to hear what specifically was good or bad during your experience.
I've been called only three times (and I'm 59 and have lived in the state my entire life), and served just once (Essex). The other two, I went, but was not called. From a jurors standpoint, it does seem inefficient but I just dealt with it. You get called, you serve...part of being an American. Like voting.
 
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You really think lawyers want to drag out a trial longer than it has to be? How long do you expect a human being to watch people testify for before zoning out? You think the average juror can pay attention for 8-10 hours a day?

It's interesting to hear from someone who served on a jury. I'd like to hear what specifically was good or bad during your experience.
I agree that we need to serve when called but the hours of the trials only seem to occur between 10 and 4 at most. With my trial it was a simple but still criminal case with ridiculous delays and wastes of time. We go through jury selection the afternoon of Day 1 after sitting around all day. Get called and put on jury. We attend Day 2 and we sit around for 3-4 hours waiting until they tell us the lawyers need more time and they can't start the case until the next day. The case starts finally at about 10:45 AM the third day. We go to lunch at noon after it starts and don't start up until about 1:30 and then one of the lawyers approaches the bench. They postpone the case til the next day. Finally the next day comes and a juror does not show up so they have to make sure the alternate was paying attention. Start late again. Case finally gets going and all is done within two hours. Guy is clearly guilty and jurors all agree, after lunch of course, with verdict same day. That afternoon it wraps up and the judge seems happy and comments that he is glad this didn't take too much of the jurors time? Completely inefficient process for real people who have jobs that depend on them. At most that was a 2-day deal but it took 4 and the court time was maybe 4 hours in total in the end.

I'll give you another example that happened to me a number of years ago. Got hit pretty hard from the rear on the GSP going south. Me and my passenger identify the car, who threw a bunch of beer bottles outside of their car and take off (bunch of kids who were drinking and driving from Garfield). Case comes before judge in Toms RIver and I am the prosecution's witness. Had to take a day off to go to court. I go and the case is called and the lawyer approaches and says he was just hired he needs time to prep a case. I lose that day. Prosecutor says I have to come back again. Rescheduled a few weeks later and I come back - take half day off to get down to Toms River. Go to court. They don't show up. Judge says that if they don't show up to the rescheduled date in one week they will both be in contempt of court. I stand up and explain to judge that I am the witness and got hit and have now taken two days off and they are still getting the court's sympathy. Judge tells me this is how it works and to sit down. Have to take third day off (half day) and finally id the kid in court and he gets hit with hit and run and underage drinking etc. Who was the victim here and why did I have to do so much. Hopefully now they would take my statement and be done but the benefit went to the charged and not me. Again ridiculous process.
 
Allow me to make a request of all of you. Our jury system is broken. And one of the reasons it's broken that normal hard working citizens do not want to be on a jury. So anyone who has a good job is smart enough to know how to get off of jury duty.

What an overwhelming amount of jurors that actually can hear a lengthy 4-6 week murder trial are the retired, the unemployed, and some government workers who get paid for it. The jury system needs all the citizens to participate in order to have good jurors.

I have seen it far too many times that despite overwhelming evidence of a defendant's guilt, one person will hang the jury or make sure the defendant is convicted of a lesser charge. It is disheartening when you hear a smart person who would make a great juror, make up some excuse so they can't serve. I urge you and you to urge others to serve on a jury. The system needs you.

Warning: Thread hijack alert.
 
Guys, this is getting off track.

Let it go or I will move the thread to Life off the Ship.
 
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