Right now they're just good enough to lose. I suppose it's better than being blown out on a regular basis but it's pretty frustrating. Reminds me of some Pirate teams in the not so distant past that you knew would blow that five point lead in the waning minutes.
JETS/GIANTS QB'S & THE #1 DRAFT PICK
- Thread starter SnakeTom
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Right now they're just good enough to lose. I suppose it's better than being blown out on a regular basis but it's pretty frustrating. Reminds me of some Pirate teams in the not so distant past that you knew would blow that five point lead in the waning minutes.
No question Judge is coaching his team and does not have his face in a play sheet all game like the last 2 coaches here and Gase with the Jets. That penalty on the fake FG was bull. But, now the team is in the position of having to fire the GM and have a new GM without his coach and probably his scouting people etc.
Anybody who posts the Giants have pieces on defense or Ereck Flowers reinvented himself is crazy.
The GM says we are as close as ever to have a legit OL. Really after 3 years and this is what you call fixing the OL? This team cannot afford a center who has played 4 games at the position in his career. And the GM is on record saying you cannot have too many DBs when Ernie Acorssi is on record saying you cannot have too many pass rushers. Even when those stupid DBs are in position to make a play they can't. A big DT taken at #17 and they give up 130 yds. rushing against a injury riddled Dallas OL.
3 years into a GM's tenure and you can't even put together a close to .500 team?
Anybody who posts the Giants have pieces on defense or Ereck Flowers reinvented himself is crazy.
The GM says we are as close as ever to have a legit OL. Really after 3 years and this is what you call fixing the OL? This team cannot afford a center who has played 4 games at the position in his career. And the GM is on record saying you cannot have too many DBs when Ernie Acorssi is on record saying you cannot have too many pass rushers. Even when those stupid DBs are in position to make a play they can't. A big DT taken at #17 and they give up 130 yds. rushing against a injury riddled Dallas OL.
3 years into a GM's tenure and you can't even put together a close to .500 team?
That’s the problem. Slayton is a border line #2 but more like a 3rd wide receiver on a good team but with the Giants he’s there best offensive weapon currently. Tate and Engram are just non factors at this point. What is Jones expected to do with really no playmakers?
The most important thing the Giants need is alignment. It sounds so simple, but for them it's hard because they are so antiquated and a family business in the way that some family businesses prevent change.
If Judge is your guy and Gettleman isn't, find a GM who can work with Judge and get on your way. Many organizations do it this way. If the relationship is right the two won't care who was hired first or who reports to how, they'll just get the job done. The Giants are still trying to build their team with this separation of GM and HC in an old power structure from 1979 where the owner and his family has the GM's ear. It worked well for a long time as it was aligned, yes, but is now over. They are not dynamic and they are not making good decisions on player evaluations. That's why they suck.
Again, they are 42-75 over an 8-season period with 7 losing seasons going back to when Tom Coughlin was screaming that the lines were not being rebuild properly and the rift between him and the FO at the time was the start of this. He was scapegoated and sent out to pasture. Fast forward years later and it's worse. They have lost 41 of their last 53 games played, the worst franchise in the league. They have had 2 different GM's and 4 HC's during that time period. What has stayed the same? Organizational structure. Adapt or die.
If Judge is your guy and Gettleman isn't, find a GM who can work with Judge and get on your way. Many organizations do it this way. If the relationship is right the two won't care who was hired first or who reports to how, they'll just get the job done. The Giants are still trying to build their team with this separation of GM and HC in an old power structure from 1979 where the owner and his family has the GM's ear. It worked well for a long time as it was aligned, yes, but is now over. They are not dynamic and they are not making good decisions on player evaluations. That's why they suck.
Again, they are 42-75 over an 8-season period with 7 losing seasons going back to when Tom Coughlin was screaming that the lines were not being rebuild properly and the rift between him and the FO at the time was the start of this. He was scapegoated and sent out to pasture. Fast forward years later and it's worse. They have lost 41 of their last 53 games played, the worst franchise in the league. They have had 2 different GM's and 4 HC's during that time period. What has stayed the same? Organizational structure. Adapt or die.
All good points Piratz but as long as key players in key positions involving talent evaluation and acquisition are not held to the same performance standards as other personnel in the organization are because they’re related to ownership then the required change is likely not to happen and yes I’m talking primarily about Chris Mara .
Absolutely. Just like any business in any industry. The general lack of openness to change and/or blockades created by nepotism (or even biased favoritism) can drown your operation. It's too personal.
And why many businesses have adopted policies that prohibits nepotism.
If the NFL Draft were right now the GIANTS would have the first pick, Falcons 2nd and Jets #3. Order is based on team with the worst record plus the easiest schedule. As a JETS fan I am now rooting for the Giants and Falcons to win a game as I'm sure that the Jets have no such chance.
As to the Jets I'm desperate to find the (nonexistent) silver lining I'd say this is the worst team since that Kotite 1-15 year. So they fired Kotite and hired Parcels and guess what 2 or 3 years later they were in the AFC title game. So I'm praying for a repeat !!!
PS: Actually Kotite was never fired. He took a leave of absence only to never return.
Tom K
As to the Jets I'm desperate to find the (nonexistent) silver lining I'd say this is the worst team since that Kotite 1-15 year. So they fired Kotite and hired Parcels and guess what 2 or 3 years later they were in the AFC title game. So I'm praying for a repeat !!!
PS: Actually Kotite was never fired. He took a leave of absence only to never return.
Tom K
Good/bad news. Line here has NYG as 2 1/2 pt favorite, but Falcons +3 1/2 dog. Leading gambling rag here has has a contest involving 62 sports book directors. 63% of them have the NYG's winning, but 73% have the Falcons losing. Oh, 76% have the Jets (+7 1/2) losing, so it's not all bad news. The good news has been the the 2 NY teams and the Washinton club have been very very good to me this season to date.
it's not all bad news. The good news has been the the 2 NY teams and the Washinton club have been very very good to me this season to date.
Sorry Phil but your sports betting success does not qualify as good news to those of us who are either hard core Jets or Giants fans.
Tom K
Good news for you & Jets fans is Jets are 1 step closer to the first pick.
Bad news (lottery pick wise) for Giants fans is Giants are favored to win this week.
Good news for me is they're both the gifts that keep on giving this year at The Book (as are the Chiefs, who'll probably get the last pick, which is a good thing overall)
As a native of the Bronx, the Giants have always been and still are #1 in my heart. (Knew Andy Robustelli as a kid in the 50s) Still my favorite NFC team. Chiefs are my team of choice in AFC. (Lived in KC longer than anywhere else, became friends with numerous Chiefs and all kids/grandkids still live there.) Loved Joe's bold prediction of the Jets over the Colts, but due to Giants never became a Jets fan per se although went to a few of their games. (Still remember seeing you at a Jets game at Shea decades ago.)
Interesting that there is some speculation surfacing in the sports media about the Jets putting Darnold‘s name out there to gauge interest in trading him. Clearly if the Jets wind up with the overall number 1 pick in the draft he’s gone.
Darnold can still be a very good player with the proper surrounding cast. But aside from his not progressing as far as expected there is a newer concern about him being injury prone. Third year in a row that he has missed significant time due to injury or illness.
Tom K
Good point Tom K about the injury bug to Darnold. I've always thought of him even before the draft as a Brian Griese level player. That's solid and you could win with him as long as he has a great deal of support on both ends of the field.
I believe if the Giants win this Sunday against Washington they'll probably wind up with at least 3 or 4 wins. So at that point it will come down to the Jets and Washington for the top pick. I believe Washington picks up at least one more win. Can the Jets win 2 of the remaining 11 games?
I believe if the Giants win this Sunday against Washington they'll probably wind up with at least 3 or 4 wins. So at that point it will come down to the Jets and Washington for the top pick. I believe Washington picks up at least one more win. Can the Jets win 2 of the remaining 11 games?
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The fact that Darnold (like Gase) isn't Douglas' guy makes it easier for the Jets to bail on Darnold if they get the No. 1 pick. You would have to believe next year Douglas will want to start with a clean slate with a new coach and new QB if they can upgrade from Darnold.
Really, unless Darnold suddenly turns into a Manning or Tom Brady in the next two months that's the move they have to make. Of course the odds on both Darnold making that transformation and the Jets ending up at No. 1 overall are astronomically high.
What’s difficult to assess with Darnold is the impact Gase has on his development and would he have made further progress under a different head coach with a different offensive philosophy. It would not be unfair to say that the Gase - Bell conflict has negatively impacted the offense and forced the Jets to pass more and not have a balanced offense with a running game led by Bell.
Based upon projections, the Jets have major cap space for 2021 (~$80MM) even if they did not unload any of their current high-priced contracts. Of course that's in addition to a very high draft spot and 11 picks overall as of now.
There are tools there to rebuild quickly as long as they get the right leadership in place.
There are tools there to rebuild quickly as long as they get the right leadership in place.
Piratz
I would not say the tools are there to rebuild quickly rather that the assets are there for a quick rebuild with significant cap space money, a high pick in each round and 11 picks all as you noted. The one asset that we have yet to see is the ability of the Jets front office to identify the talent that would move the Jets rebuild forward and what we see the Jets do in building their roster for the 2021 season will tell us if they have the right people or not.
Vikings, falcons, redskins, eagles, texans, bengals and giants will all be in mix, though hard for jets to actually win one game, schedule outside of division is tough
I knew it was a pipe dream but there goes my hope as a Giants fan of tanking for Trevor. They’ll be just bad enough not get that franchise player. Consolation prize is they’ll at least be bad enough to get that fool Gettleman canned. As I’ll say till the day he’s fired, “there’s no hope with that DOPE!”
There have been rumors suggesting that Gettleman will announce his retirement at the end of the season citing health reasons , a way to save face for Mara and Tisch from having to fire another individual in a key position .If that does happen and the Giants stay in-house his replacement could be Kevin Abrams the assistant GM with the Giants the past 19 years including during the Reese tenure .
I took the following at The Book for season win totals:
Washington Team (1-5) under 5
Bengals (1-4-1) under 5 1/2
Jaguars (1-5) under 4 1/2
Giants (1-5) under 6 1/2
Jets (0-6) under 6 1/2
Bills (4-1) over 9
Chiefs (4-1) over 11 1/2
49ers (3-3) over 10 1/2 [injuries have hurt them & me]
Passed on Vikings (9); Falcons (7 1/2), Eagles (9 1/2), Texans (7 1/2)
They where preseason lines at The Book that I invested in, so, in at least my case & The Book's, they apply. lol
If they do that, it’s just another example of being a terribly run franchise while convincing themselves that they’re not a terribly run franchise.
I understand them being sensitive to how Gettleman departs as he has been a long time employee with the Giants and did recently battle cancer. Dave has a lot of egg on his face after all the bravado he came in here with after the good job he did in Carolina.
But if you promote from within here you deserve another 5 years of losing. My God. Get someone from the outside to pair with Judge. Enough is enough.
I can' t for the Jets and Darnold as I just haven't watched them. As for Jones and the Giants, I like what I've seen from him. Yes he needs to cut down the turnovers and with the exception of the interception yesterday where he was trying to do the right thing and throw it away under heavy pressure, which was an awful call by the officials not reversing that as he clearly came down with his elbow on the line, he had a strong game. He was accurate, showed toughness on his runs made the plays he had to make. He's done a much better job with the fumbles which was the big bugaboo last year. If the Giants can continue to build on the running game it will help in tremendously not having to be the only option considering they have a garbage WR corp. ESPECIALLY with Slayton banged up. Freeman has been a nice pickup. He has definitely lost a step and a few of his nice runs, if Barclay were in would have been taken to the house. At this point I'm not ready to give up on Jones. Will he be a top 5 QB? Not likely but neither was Manning and he'll likely be a hall of famer. And for the record I said Haskins wouldn't be in the league past his rookie contract and thus far I'm on track for that to be correct.
If you go the preferred route by going outside the organization, which makes sense to me , then look at organizations like the Ravens or Steelers and some other franchises that seem to consistently keep themselves as playoff contenders thru smart drafts and free agent signings and target the assistant GM ‘s or other high ranking personnel involved with player acquisition and talent evaluation of those teams among your pool of candidates.
Is there any further proof needed to show that the Giants are a clueless organization if they hire their next GM from within the organization?
2020: 1-5
2019: 4-12
2018: 5-11
2017: 3-13
2016: 11-5
2015: 6-10
2014: 6-10
But sure, let's promote someone directly involved with this mess to oversee the franchise moving forward?
Hopefully Mara and Tisch aren't this dumb, but they haven't done much to make us think otherwise lately.
Also, I'm not sold on Jones. If they're still in the running for the top pick there's no way you can pass on Lawrence.
2020: 1-5
2019: 4-12
2018: 5-11
2017: 3-13
2016: 11-5
2015: 6-10
2014: 6-10
But sure, let's promote someone directly involved with this mess to oversee the franchise moving forward?
Hopefully Mara and Tisch aren't this dumb, but they haven't done much to make us think otherwise lately.
Also, I'm not sold on Jones. If they're still in the running for the top pick there's no way you can pass on Lawrence.
At this point, I'd be stunned if the Giants are in the running for the top pick. Other than the records, the Jets are in much worse shape than the Giants right now. The Giants have been mostly competitive while the Jets haven't sniffed a win yet. The Giants could easily split six division games in an awful NFC East which would likely take them out of the running for the top pick.
Hypothetically speaking, if the Giants did end up at No. 1 overall, I agree they would have to cut bait on Jones and take Lawrence. You know Gettleman will be out and theoretically whoever replaces him won't have an investment in Jones. But I think it will be a harder decision for the Giants to move on from their QB than it would be for the Jets. Jones has shown some potential and could really blossom if he ends up somewhere with an O-line to protect him.
Gettlemen put his team in quarterback hell as he called it just when he was supposedly avoiding that situation. No question in my mind they will not have the top pick though. They were right not being interested in Haskins, but I'll bet that was mostly Shurmur. And it shows Gettlelmes poor talent evaluation when he could have had Becton instead of Thomas. And Austin Johnson and Tomlinson are as good as Lawrence and those 2 were not the 17th pick in a draft. And that stupid Baker would not have even gone in the 1st round never mind he probably would have continued to drop based on what scouts and GMs knew.
The Jets are tanking and the GM is too. He sure looks like he set his team up to fail for this year. Jets have no talent Giants talent is overrated and marginal for the most part. I didn't mind Jason Garret as a HC , but now I know why Section 112 thinks the way he does about him. Is there a worse red zone offense? And those pitches to Engram and double reverses are an accident waiting to happen.
The Jets are tanking and the GM is too. He sure looks like he set his team up to fail for this year. Jets have no talent Giants talent is overrated and marginal for the most part. I didn't mind Jason Garret as a HC , but now I know why Section 112 thinks the way he does about him. Is there a worse red zone offense? And those pitches to Engram and double reverses are an accident waiting to happen.
Here's an interesting piece on ESPN.com about players and coaches on the hot seat. Gase is at the top of the list, Gettleman isn't too far down and Darnold draws a mention as well.
ESPN Hot Seat
ESPN Hot Seat
I don't think there's any chance the Giants are in the running for the top pick. Yes, they are 1-5, but their level of play overall (particularly on defense) will be enough to get them a handful of wins as their schedule softens. In fact, 4 of their next 5 games are completely winnable and a much easier road on paper than their first 6:
THURS 10/22 at Philadelphia (1-4-1)
MON 11/2 Tampa Bay (4-2)
SUN 11/8 at Washington (1-5)
SUN 11/15 Philadelphia (1-4-1)
SUN 11/22 -BYE-
SUN 11/29 at Cincinnati (1-4-1)
In terms of the division, it's a joke. The losses against the Bears and Cowboys will come back to haunt them.
The biggest issue for the Giants right now is assessing Jones in the Garrett offense. It's a mess 6 games in. Jones has looked worse in it by every measure compared to what Shurmur was running for him. The turnovers are a major problem and the reason why the Giants lost some of those early games they could have won. The offenses are very different. We'll see.
THURS 10/22 at Philadelphia (1-4-1)
MON 11/2 Tampa Bay (4-2)
SUN 11/8 at Washington (1-5)
SUN 11/15 Philadelphia (1-4-1)
SUN 11/22 -BYE-
SUN 11/29 at Cincinnati (1-4-1)
In terms of the division, it's a joke. The losses against the Bears and Cowboys will come back to haunt them.
The biggest issue for the Giants right now is assessing Jones in the Garrett offense. It's a mess 6 games in. Jones has looked worse in it by every measure compared to what Shurmur was running for him. The turnovers are a major problem and the reason why the Giants lost some of those early games they could have won. The offenses are very different. We'll see.
Interesting discussion on Michael Kay show yesterday with Mike Tannenbaum who is ESPN’s former GM analyst this season. Lots of focus on Gase and when pushed by Kay , Tannenbaum admitted that the offensive genius reputation he had that led to his hiring in Miami is not there with the Jets. As to Jones he was adamant that Jones has the skills to be a good NFL QB if he cures his turnover problem and if the Giants put better talent around him at the OL and WR positions.
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