JETS/GIANTS QB'S & THE #1 DRAFT PICK

[NYC Pirate]

I'd say the defense shows flashes of respectability. Much better cornerback play than we have seen less the numerous coverage lapses which led to easy scores and long plays. Probably the best LB play we've witnessed as a group in some time. The DL is solid. Having said that they still can't seal the deal on defense at crunch time. Can't get that disruptive pressure late and two weeks in a row the Giants allowed receivers to get by them in late game situations. Trending up, but a ways to go.

Special Teams can compete with any team in the league. That can't be overlooked as they take stress away from the overall team game planning.

Garrett is a good OC, but sometimes he goes conservative at the worst times. I wish he would let Jones throw the ball down field inside the 50. It's looks like he wants to get deep before taking any valid attempts at scoring. The further they get in the redzone the harder it becomes for Jones as teams are packed in and are applying much more pressure. That's leading to a few of these crucial turnovers. I don't understand their use of Gallman at times. One week he's in and one week he's out. The offense needs to put the ball in the endzone two or three times a week for the Giants to become a good NFL team.

So I'm sticking by my points:
The defense is better, but they can't seal the deal at crunch time. Inexplicably they allowed another receiver to get behind them deep when it mattered most.

I've been saying since week 2 that they are waiting to get deep before trying scoring plays and that good teams don't wait. The Golden Tate TD is a perfect example where Jones was not under extreme duress and was able to create a one on one matchup from inside the 50.

I've been confused about their use of Gallman for several years? In fact when Barkley comes back next year I'd like to see them get back to somewhat of the "earth, wind and fire" mentality that we witnessed with Bradshaw and Jacobs. The change of pace makes it harder for the defense to lock in on one player. obviously Barkley has the most talent, but we need results.

As for Garrett I have been impressed with his play calling. If the Giants had a decent line I'm sure he could dial it up more. He still has a tendency to reel it in late and that may have been the case with the Cowboys too. The play he created for Jones to Engram was exceptional and it should have led to the game clincher.

I think the Jones turnover situation should not be brought into the Eagle's game recap. His ball was too hot to Engram, but a great receiver or tightend catches that. Under 30 seconds without timeouts was never looking promising with the Giant's OL.

Andrew Thomas is now a big concern. He absolutely can't stop a spin move. Plus coaches are confusing him sending one guy to his left and one inside. With experience he can probably improve in that area. Might have to move to the right side eventually.

 

[TomD82]

I noticed that on the spin move. I mean it was not a great inside spin move and with the 2 rushers being sent Hernadez should be better there.

 

[HALL85]

One thing you have to consider with Quarterbacks is how good their team is. It's hard to be successful with no receivers or offensive line. The jury is still out on Jones & Darnold. I think both could be good, tho not elite, if they had a good supporting cast. The draft is always a crap shoot. You look at the draft and see Wilson in 3rd round, Brady in 6th or Romo undrafted. Then you have San Diego giving up on Drew Brees after his 3rd year. Also the Jets and Giants both had QB's like Lamar Jackson, Pat Mahomes and Deshaun Watson still available when they picked. It is easy to be an expert while looking in a rear view mirror. The real weakness of both teams was poor GM's who continuously made bad moves and draft picks.

So here is my question: if either the Jets or Giants have the first pick this year do you trade Jones or Darnold & pick Trevor Lawrence at #1, keep the current QB & draft the top non QB player in the draft or trade the top pick for a bounty of additional picks ? Your thoughts ?

Tom K

Resurfaced this question from two years ago. Also remember the question of did the Giants make the right choice for Saquon at #2 vs Darnold (who went at #3) in 2018.

Jones looking like a very serviceable QB with most of the WR’s still injured. Coaching? Dabol has done a masterful job with the limited talent on offense.

 

[Piratz]

Resurfaced this question from two years ago. Also remember the question of did the Giants make the right choice for Saquon at #2 vs Darnold (who went at #3) in 2018.

Jones looking like a very serviceable QB with most of the WR’s still injured. Coaching? Dabol has done a masterful job with the limited talent on offense.

The coaching and system upgrade on offense is exactly what Jones needed. It’s night and day. But the question is whether serviceable is enough for Schoen/Daboll when making this decision. Do they see Jones as “their guy” if they upgrade the skill positions? For the Giants to be 6-1 with the WR/TE group playing is remarkable. They are scheming up the talent.

The defense is similar story but more legit talent and how they’re used compared to last year. They’ve got Lawrence, McKinney, and Love playing to their strengths instead of how they were used last year.

 

[sami]

The coaching and system upgrade on offense is exactly what Jones needed. It’s night and day. But the question is whether serviceable is enough for Schoen/Daboll when making this decision. Do they see Jones as “their guy” if they upgrade the skill positions? For the Giants to be 6-1 with the WR/TE group playing is remarkable. They are scheming up the talent.

The defense is similar story but more legit talent and how they’re used compared to last year. They’ve got Lawrence, McKinney, and Love playing to their strengths instead of how they were used last year.

At this point, I’d build around him and let it ride. I know they’ll have to pay him soon, but he’s proving to be pretty clutch.

Hey, Trent Dilfer won a SB.

 

[hallgrad80]

Jones is proving that with the right Head Coach , OC and the right system he can be a solid QB in the NFL and that’s with , and I’m being charitable, at best a mediocre WR Corp and an OL that still needs to be upgraded. With still upgrades in talent needed giving up high draft picks to draft a QB would hurt adding talent and if Jones keeps making progress I’d stick with him .

 

[TomD82]

It was a mistake not picking up the 5th yet option on him. Now it will most likely cost them 10- 12 million. The franchise tag is a lot less money for a running back than a QB. No way Jones is taking Winston or Trubisky money as a starter. Saquon might give Giants a discount but that is on a max contract. All in all these are good problems to have considering where the franchise has been.

Man it got dicey at the end v. Jax. Looked the the old Giants for a few seconds. Jets defense is good. Would like to see the Giants defense be more like their.

 

[hallgrad80]

It was a mistake not picking up the 5th yet option on him. Now it will most likely cost them 10- 12 million. The franchise tag is a lot less money for a running back than a QB. No way Jones is taking Winston or Trubisky money as a starter. Saquon might give Giants a discount but that is on a max contract. All in all these are good problems to have considering where the franchise has been.

Man it got dicey at the end v. Jax. Looked the the old Giants for a few seconds. Jets defense is good. Would like to see the Giants defense be more like their.

I can’t help but think that if the Giants had better head coaches , OC’s and the right system beginning when Jones was drafted until this current coaching staff was hired he would have made better progress in his development and there may have been a different decision with respect to picking up his option.

 

[HALL85]

It was a mistake not picking up the 5th yet option on him. Now it will most likely cost them 10- 12 million. The franchise tag is a lot less money for a running back than a QB. No way Jones is taking Winston or Trubisky money as a starter. Saquon might give Giants a discount but that is on a max contract. All in all these are good problems to have considering where the franchise has been.

Man it got dicey at the end v. Jax. Looked the the old Giants for a few seconds. Jets defense is good. Would like to see the Giants defense be more like their.

Barclay made that error going down too late ending up out of bounds giving Lawrence over a minute.

 

[TheHall87]

Barclay made that error going down too late ending up out of bounds giving Lawrence over a minute.

He tried but, yes, he was late.

My gripe is that the officials waited until after the Giants called timeout to review the play and determine he should have been ruled out of bounds.

Alternatively, Daboll should have gotten the field goal unit out for the kick rather than call the timeout given the questionable nature of the previous call. If replay buzzes at that point, so be it. I'm not worried about Gano making that kick and now you're up six with around 25 seconds to play.

 

[lr591902]

He tried but, yes, he was late.

My gripe is that the officials waited until after the Giants called timeout to review the play and determine he should have been ruled out of bounds.

Alternatively, Daboll should have gotten the field goal unit out for the kick rather than call the timeout given the questionable nature of the previous call. If replay buzzes at that point, so be it. I'm not worried about Gano making that kick and now you're up six with around 25 seconds to play.

Barclay actually ran out of bounds three times during the last drive. Each time he should have cut inside instead of running out of bounds. Each time he saved 40 seconds.

 

[PirateFan94]

It was a mistake not picking up the 5th yet option on him. Now it will most likely cost them 10- 12 million. The franchise tag is a lot less money for a running back than a QB. No way Jones is taking Winston or Trubisky money as a starter. Saquon might give Giants a discount but that is on a max contract. All in all these are good problems to have considering where the franchise has been.

Man it got dicey at the end v. Jax. Looked the the old Giants for a few seconds. Jets defense is good. Would like to see the Giants defense be more like their.

I think Jones can be signed to a short term prove it contract. No one is giving him a long term big money deal on 1 season. I think 3 years in the 20 million range will get it done. That's close to the money for the 5th year option. That will also give Giants time to see if he is Franchise level (which I think he has the talent for). His passing number aren't gaudy but he's also limited by the talent around him. Yes If he hahis line is improving but his receivers are trash. Take out Robinson and Slayton and he's surrounded by practice squad talent. Slayton on most teams would be a backup. If he had Miami's receivers he'd be throwing for 300+ per game. Combine that with his 50 ypg on the ground and he's a great talent. Draft a #1 this offseason, sign Odell and combine them with Robinson and Toney (if he can get healthy) and Saquan and you have a top 5 offense.

 

[Burnsly]

Agree with you on Jones but you lost me with, "Sign Odell".

 

[dehere23]

Agree with you on Jones but you lost me with, "Sign Odell".

I don't want Odell anywhere near this team. This is a group that is playing as the ultimate team, getting contributions from everyone on the roster it seems, with no drama whatsoever. Even "incidents" that appeared to have some legs, like with Golladay or Toney, have largely been quashed it seems in that you don't hear people taking about it every week, and seemingly it has no impact on the guys playing. At this point, why disrupt the apple cart by bringing in someone with Odell's baggage. He's a good fit, if healthy, for a team that is ready made to win, already established, with a strong veteran presence and a defined role for what they need him to do. Which is why he was perfect for the Rams last year; they needed someone to compliment Kupp and the running game, there were guys on that team like Von Miller and Aaron Donald who could keep Odell in line if he started to stray, veteran QB, established coach and the like.

 

[Section112]

I don't want Odell anywhere near this team. This is a group that is playing as the ultimate team, getting contributions from everyone on the roster it seems, with no drama whatsoever. Even "incidents" that appeared to have some legs, like with Golladay or Toney, have largely been quashed it seems in that you don't hear people taking about it every week, and seemingly it has no impact on the guys playing. At this point, why disrupt the apple cart by bringing in someone with Odell's baggage. He's a good fit, if healthy, for a team that is ready made to win, already established, with a strong veteran presence and a defined role for what they need him to do. Which is why he was perfect for the Rams last year; they needed someone to compliment Kupp and the running game, there were guys on that team like Von Miller and Aaron Donald who could keep Odell in line if he started to stray, veteran QB, established coach and the like.

Agree. Even though Daboll would probably handle him, I worry more about an Odell vs. Jones scenario if he doesn't get enough balls thrown his way. Jones is still young and does not need to be worrying about Odell. Big picture is this is a non-issue. Daboll and Schoen are way too smart to upset the apple cart and they have very little cap space to work with. Not to mention how will Odell come back from his injury? There is a good chance he is not back to his old form until next year if ever. Why take the chance? Dabes and Schoen won't do that and I bet they are realistic behind the scenes about how far this banged up team can go even though the 6-1 run is nothing short of incredible. They will ultimately stick to the LT plan and build for the future.

 

[Burnsly]

He's broken, both physically & mentally.

 

[HALL85]

As a Giants fan can’t be any happier. Dabol is getting the most out of the talent that he has. It’s early, but he can coach. He is also good at surrounding himself with coaching talent.

Now the GM needs to collect more talent. He has done it before. Odell is a waste of time.

 

[dehere23]

He's broken, both physically & mentally.

If Odell is healthy I can see why he might make sense for a team like the Chiefs or Bills looking to add a WR in a complimentary defined role. Like last year. And I don’t think they need him as presently constituted. Certainly not the Bills who have Diggs and Davis plus their slot guys.

I think there are probably only a few of those that have all the ingredients to make it work and for the potential upside to outweigh the potential downside. Maybe even Green Bay too if AR has a relationship with him or some kind.

 

[hallgrad80]

He's broken, both physically & mentally.

Too much drama surrounds Odell wherever he goes .

 

[PirateFan94]

Sorry, no Giants fan was happy when he was traded. We all cursed Gettleman. He had issues in Cleveland with Mayfield and now that he’s moved on and is still a bust I can understand why. He has no issue in LA. I agree he may not be himself until next year so that Is a valid argument but if he is healthy he’s exactly the type of talent you need for Jones to reach his potential. I’d think he’dne WR1 here so he’d be happy. Sign him to a non guaranteed contract and spell it out for him, if he’sa disruption, he’s gone. In my Opinion he’s not a bad locker room guy. This isn’t Antonio Brown.

 

[HALL85]

Sorry, no Giants fan was happy when he was traded. We all cursed Gettleman. He had issues in Cleveland with Mayfield and now that he’s moved on and is still a bust I can understand why. He has no issue in LA. I agree he may not be himself until next year so that Is a valid argument but if he is healthy he’s exactly the type of talent you need for Jones to reach his potential. I’d think he’dne WR1 here so he’d be happy. Sign him to a non guaranteed contract and spell it out for him, if he’sa disruption, he’s gone. In my Opinion he’s not a bad locker room guy. This isn’t Antonio Brown.

There are tons of talented WR’s not named Beckham. Too much baggage and a distraction to a team that plays like a team.

 

[Section112]

His agent isn’t an idiot. Why would he sign a non guaranteed contract? He doesnt have to. Silly statement.

 

[ponyfoot19]

Adding Beckham would be subtraction by addition.

 

[TomD82]

I think Jones can be signed to a short term prove it contract. No one is giving him a long term big money deal on 1 season. I think 3 years in the 20 million range will get it done. That's close to the money for the 5th year option. That will also give Giants time to see if he is Franchise level (which I think he has the talent for). His passing number aren't gaudy but he's also limited by the talent around him. Yes If he hahis line is improving but his receivers are trash. Take out Robinson and Slayton and he's surrounded by practice squad talent. Slayton on most teams would be a backup. If he had Miami's receivers he'd be throwing for 300+ per game. Combine that with his 50 ypg on the ground and he's a great talent. Draft a #1 this offseason, sign Odell and combine them with Robinson and Toney (if he can get healthy) and Saquan and you have a top 5 offense.

I think Jones and his agent would take 3 years 100 million with 60 million guaranteed. Maybe Carolina or the Colts are interested in Jones at market value after their debacles at QB and both teams have receivers. I have never seen a QB or really any player in any sport take way less to be a starter when they did prove it at least to a certain extent in a contract walk year. Guys like Winston got the money you are talking about because they were signed specifically to be the back up.

 

[PirateFan94]

I think Jones and his agent would take 3 years 100 million with 60 million guaranteed. Maybe Carolina or the Colts are interested in Jones at market value after their debacles at QB and both teams have receivers. I have never seen a QB or really any player in any sport take way less to be a starter when they did prove it at least to a certain extent in a contract walk year. Guys like Winston got the money you are talking about because they were signed specifically to be the back up.

There is no way in hell he’s getting $33 million per for3 years. They would transition tag him and make a team offer that first. He’ll get something like 3 years 65 million. Other teams will think it’s Daboll schemes and not risk that kind of money. I like and want him back. He’s had 7 good haves thus far under Daboll. Even if he continues his ascension he’s not getting $33 million.

 

[Section112]

Giants just traded Toney to the Chiefs for a 3rd and 6th round pick to the Chiefs. Hoping Toney does not become the next star for the Chiefs but glad the Giants got something for him. Still need a WR1 badly.

 

[lr591902]

Giants just traded Toney to the Chiefs for a 3rd and 6th round pick to the Chiefs. Hoping Toney does not become the next star for the Chiefs but glad the Giants got something for him. Still need a WR1 badly.

Maybe we will get lucky and tease Golladay also for a seventh round pick

 

[hallgrad80]

Giants just traded Toney to the Chiefs for a 3rd and 6th round pick to the Chiefs. Hoping Toney does not become the next star for the Chiefs but glad the Giants got something for him. Still need a WR1 badly.

It’s a conditional 3rd round pick and anytime you can get an extra pick in that round you can find a player who can make a contribution early in the player‘s career .Nice move by Schoen and from what we’ve seen to date the Giants appear to finally got it right with both their hires at the GM and head coach positions.

 

[Section112]

What hurts is Toney was a first round pick (probably a reach but other teams had interest). But you have to move on. If we can get a 3rd round pick (6th round is not all that attractive unless its a very deep draft) that will be compensation enough.

 

[hallgrad80]

Maybe we will get lucky and tease Golladay also for a seventh round pick

I’m sure Golladay is being shopped by the Giants but getting a team to trade for him is almost impossible because of his contract.

 

[TomD82]

Toney is another DeAndre Baker. I am glad to see them move on from Gertlemen players. It will be interesting to see if they go after Jerry Juedy or DJ Moore since Carolina and Denver might be selling.

 

[TheHall87]

Toney is another DeAndre Baker. I am glad to see them move on from Gertlemen players. It will be interesting to see if they go after Jerry Juedy or DJ Moore since Carolina and Denver might be selling.

The Giants are sitting about $4 million below the cap right now according to Spotrac.

DJ Moore is probably a no-go. He signed a three-year $61 million extension with $41 guaranteed in March. His cap hit this year is just over $6 million but jumps to $25 next year and $20.9 the next two. I have a hard time seeing Schoen make that move along with the cap gymnastic that will ensue.

Jerry Jeudy's cap hit is a more manageable $4.1 million (though they would have to cut someone or restructure a contract to make room) and climbs to $4.8 next year with his fifth-year option looming in 2024. Maybe they guarantee the option to reduce the cap hit this year. That's a move Schoen has largely resisted to this point.

The other issue is if Schoen wants to move draft capital to try to accelerate a rebuild. If whatever he does backfires, it sets them back further in the future.

 

[Section112]

Lots of rumors about Jeudy. I have my doubts why Denver would trade him though. Talented kid, low cap hit and they just mortgaged the farm for Wilson so you take away one of his best targets. If I were Denver I'd stick with it and not give up on the season. If he's available though he is lightning quick and can cause defenses lots of trouble. Would this be the Stephon Diggs trade like what Buffalo did while Schoen was there?

 

[TomD82]

The Giants are sitting about $4 million below the cap right now according to Spotrac.

DJ Moore is probably a no-go. He signed a three-year $61 million extension with $41 guaranteed in March. His cap hit this year is just over $6 million but jumps to $25 next year and $20.9 the next two. I have a hard time seeing Schoen make that move along with the cap gymnastic that will ensue.

Jerry Jeudy's cap hit is a more manageable $4.1 million (though they would have to cut someone or restructure a contract to make room) and climbs to $4.8 next year with his fifth-year option looming in 2024. Maybe they guarantee the option to reduce the cap hit this year. That's a move Schoen has largely resisted to this point.

The other issue is if Schoen wants to move draft capital to try to accelerate a rebuild. If whatever he does backfires, it sets them back further in the future.

I think Adoree Jackson would be the contract they restructure if they were to make a move. Already did Leonard Williams.

 

[PirateFan94]

It’s a conditional 3rd round pick and anytime you can get an extra pick in that round you can find a player who can make a contribution early in the player‘s career .Nice move by Schoen and from what we’ve seen to date the Giants appear to finally got it right with both their hires at the GM and head coach positions.

Not conditional. Compensatory.

 

[TheHall87]

I think Adoree Jackson would be the contract they restructure if they were to make a move. Already did Leonard Williams.

They re-did Jackson's deal in April by converting roughly $9 million in salary to a signing bonus. They also tacked on a void year to spread the bonus over three years instead of the two that remained on his contract.

 

[TomD82]

Not conditional. Compensatory.

If the Chiefs are not awarded a compensatory 3rd round pick then the pick becomes the Chiefs 4th round pick.

 

[TomD82]

They re-did Jackson's deal in April by converting roughly $9 million in salary to a signing bonus. They also tacked on a void year to spread the bonus over three years instead of the two that remained on his contract.

Thanks. Sounds like there will not any big trade for a WR this season. Seems more like a FA lower money contract at best. Maybe Schoen is totally forward looking unlike Gettlemen.

 

[PirateFan94]

If the Chiefs are not awarded a compensatory 3rd round pick then the pick becomes the Chiefs 4th round pick.

They already were. It was for their coach being hired in offseason.

 

[TomD82]

They already were. It was for their coach being hired in offseason.

That pick was for GM Ryan Poles who the Giant also interviewed. The Chiefs also have a comp 6th but looks like they designated their own 6 to the Giants.