It seems we cannot agree to simply be kind. Like the Bible says... always throw stones because you never know if it might it might be a preemptive attack.
Sigh.
Sigh.
Michael Phelps: NCAA’s Lia Thomas issue shows need for level playing field
- Thread starter Halldan1
- Start date
In the words of Frasier Crane, “A cat can have kittens in the oven, but that don’t make ‘em biscuits!”
Lia can claim he’s a woman but truth is he’s a man. That’s not being mean, that’s just being honest. Truth is the truth whether people like it or not. Biology isn’t changing because you want to say you are something you are not.
Lia can claim he’s a woman but truth is he’s a man. That’s not being mean, that’s just being honest. Truth is the truth whether people like it or not. Biology isn’t changing because you want to say you are something you are not.
Omg, made me lolzzz 😂 For some reason when I read this it made me visualize Jamie Foxx as Shanaynay😝
I applaud Michael Phelps for transitioning to a politician, we know exactly where he stands on the issue - but he did a great job shielding himself from cancel culture.
Regarding Title IX supporters and feminists, there has been pushback from both groups. They're between a rock and a hard place, how does one support women's rights and denounce unfair athletic competition in a politically correct world?
I would love to hear Dave Chappelle's opinion.
Regarding Title IX supporters and feminists, there has been pushback from both groups. They're between a rock and a hard place, how does one support women's rights and denounce unfair athletic competition in a politically correct world?
I would love to hear Dave Chappelle's opinion.
I have a friend who I grew up with who is Transgender. She and she is a she, was never an athlete. But she agrees that it is too complicated to make biological comparisons of a post puberty transitioning male to female who has built muscle mass and both height and weight. Muscle weight.
It is not what is fair it is a problem where you need to look at both sides of the issue. My friend is a very female female. Not an athlete who has a male frame and a male muscle mass. I respect her.
I think that Lia loves to swim, but the biology needs to be discussed. If her hormone levels and balance is not that of a Cis female then it is a problem. If they are, then the issue is that she went through puberty as a male. Built up her body then transitioned.
The other Transgender friends of my friend are very mixed and a little embarrassed that they want an even playing field in their lives, but they are thinking that Lia is not on a level playing field.
Ethicists need to examine with Doctors what are the criteria for participation in sports. If you physically look at Serena Williams you might think, how could any other woman beat her. She is a Cis female. That is unquestionable. But her biological make up gave her an advantage just as other top athletes had physical advantages. The question is where the line needs to be drawn where respect and biological reality meet.
It is not what is fair it is a problem where you need to look at both sides of the issue. My friend is a very female female. Not an athlete who has a male frame and a male muscle mass. I respect her.
I think that Lia loves to swim, but the biology needs to be discussed. If her hormone levels and balance is not that of a Cis female then it is a problem. If they are, then the issue is that she went through puberty as a male. Built up her body then transitioned.
The other Transgender friends of my friend are very mixed and a little embarrassed that they want an even playing field in their lives, but they are thinking that Lia is not on a level playing field.
Ethicists need to examine with Doctors what are the criteria for participation in sports. If you physically look at Serena Williams you might think, how could any other woman beat her. She is a Cis female. That is unquestionable. But her biological make up gave her an advantage just as other top athletes had physical advantages. The question is where the line needs to be drawn where respect and biological reality meet.
Then I’d say Tony Bozella would be the happiest man on campus…
Here is a very easy place to draw the line:
You compete in sports with/against the sex you were born. When the competition ends you can identify any way you want.
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Take a walk on the wild side
Seriously though…It’s a tough issue these days …can’t really debate these type of issues now but this particular one certainly tests that generalization
Trigger Warning: Big words, science, thinking
How Many Sexes Are There?
The issue of gender verification is not new to competitive sports. Yet how can we define biological sex? And how many sexes are there? As the 2016 Rio Olympic Games get underway, CNRS News explores this sensitive and complicated topic.
Whether swimming, running, rowing, jumping or throwing, 10,500 athletes from 206 countries will be bent on setting the world of sport alight at the Rio Olympics from August 5 to 21. Yet these Games could be marred by disputes over the sex of female competitors whose shoulders are just a touch too large or whose hips are a tad too narrow… Throughout the history of the Games, there has been a long list of sportswomen whose physical appearance is at odds with the standard canons of femininity. But what indeed constitutes a “real” woman in biological terms? The simple genetic formula “XX” with its two X chromosomes is only part of the story.
After grappling with this thorny question for many a long year, the governing bodies of sport, convinced that none of the femininity tests (gynecological examination, screening for certain genes, etc.) performed since the 1960s have been effective, decided in 2000 quite simply to end such controls. But gender verification did not end altogether, since the International Olympic Committee (IOC) retains the right to insist on hormone tests in cases of “visual doubt.” If such tests revealed excessive secretion of androgens (male hormones), particularly testosterone (which causes masculine traits to appear), the athlete concerned must take remedial steps, using hormone therapy for instance, to be eligible to line up against other female competitors.
A complex mechanism
So will these rules apply in Rio? This is by no means certain since Indian sprinter Dutee Chand, who was diagnosed as hyperandrogenic following gender testing and forced to withdraw from the 2014 Commonwealth Games, brought her case before the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). “At the request of this body, the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) decided to suspend the regulations governing hormonal tests for two years. And the IOC is known to rigorously adhere to the positions of the IAAF,” notes Anaïs Bohuon, senior lecturer at the UFR STAPS at Paris Sud University. “Many observers question whether testosterone levels can be used to set the dividing line between male and female gender and as a basis for requiring that female athletes with hyperandrogenism must ″normalize″ their hormone levels.1 Dutee Chand, who feels she is a woman in all respects and has no desire to compete with male athletes, has unusually high testosterone levels that occur endogenously and without doping. Why then should a natural advantage comparable with that of large feet in swimmers or a high waist in jumpers be labeled as non-femininity?”Intersex people such as Chand are at the same time a source of unease for sporting authorities and a source of interest for biologists. Intersex traits, which are described in numerous mammals,2 appear to occur in between 1% and 2% of humans at birth. It is in fact the extreme complexity of the mechanisms involved in determination of biological gender that inevitably causes wrong notes.
"Intersex traits seem to affect between 1% and 2% of humans at birth."
This is why millions of individuals do not conform to the two gender types that characterize the immense majority of humans, namely the female type (two X chromosomes, ovaries, anatomical features favoring pregnancy and fetal development, breasts, and so on) and the male type (one X and one Y chromosome, a penis and testicles, internal ducts for the transportation of urine and sperm, etc.).
The diversity of forms of sexual development and the atypical types that occur are striking, whether of chromosomal, hormonal or environmental origin (caused by chemical products that disturb the endocrine system or by drugs taken during pregnancy, for instance). “The most extreme signs of sexual development disorders are those known as ‘sex inversions:’ ‘XY’ women with undeveloped testicles, as well as a vagina and a clitoris, and ‘XX men’ with testicles and a penis,” explains Francis Poulat, of the IGH in Montpellier.3 “In all recorded cases, these people are sterile. Furthermore, there is a strong risk of tumors (gonadoblastomas) developing in their gonads (ovaries and testicles). In addition to these examples, there are many other intermediate phenotypes in which both male and female sexual characteristics coexist in the same individual. Thus, XX babies with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (androgenic hyperproduction) are born with female reproductive organs and masculinized external genitalia (a hypertrophied clitoris resembling a small penis, fusion of the labia majora covering the vaginal entrance).”
An almost unlimited number of sexes?
Whatever their origin, all of these anomalies show that intersex traits cover a vast range of biomedical conditions varying in frequency and severity, and that the precise number of different biological sexes among humans is in reality a complex issue. It is generally held that there are no simple answers to this question. Based on the sole criterion of production of reproductive cells, there are two and only two sexes: the female sex, capable of producing large gametes (ovules), and the male sex, which produces small gametes (spermatozoa).However, this gonadic criterion (based upon reproductive glands) is not the only factor on which the definition of biological gender rests. We must also consider genetic sex (based on X and Y chromosomes), anatomical (based on the appearance of the genitalia), hormonal gender (based on the predominant hormones), and so on. Moreover, “each sexual parameter can have variants,” explains Éric Vilain, of the Epigenetics, Data & Politics Laboratory.4 For example, “XX/XY mosaics” are individuals with gonads comprising both ovaries and testicles. We may thus conclude that an infinite combination of biological genders exists... and thus, far more than the five sexes proposed by Anne Fausto-Sterling in the 1990s, which were in fact based primarily on a gonadic definition of gender.”
So is there really a practically unlimited number of biological sexes? Not according to Vilain, in any case: “intermediate states between the different biological sexes are extremely rare and often associated with infertility, which in evolutionary terms consigns them to a dead end,” says the researcher. “It is not reasonable to place the two biological sexes present in the vast majority of cases on the same level as the extremely rare intermediate sexes.”
For Thierry Hoquet, philosopher of science and professor at the Université Jean-Moulin Lyon 3, it is clearly impossible to deny “the reality of the ‘two sexes’ as evidenced by the binary nature of the gametes.” However, attempting to shoehorn all humans “into two hermetically sealed boxes (men and women)” is highly reductive at best and takes no account of biological realities.
"The different levels of biological sex do not all fall into place at the same point in life."
Above all, “the major philosophical lesson to be drawn from intersex traits is that biological gender is acquired during development. In other words, the different levels of biological sex do not all fall into place at the same point in life. They occur around four key moments, namely fertilization (when chromosomal sex is determined), intra-uterine development (when gonophoric sex is established), birth (at which time the outer genitalia are examined to assign gender for civil status records) and puberty (when hormonal gender is affirmed); at each of these stages, processes potentially resulting in an ″intersex″ condition can occur.”
But why has biology taken all this time to finally recognize that the existence of multiple sexes is normal? The problem is that the study of the mechanisms of sex determination was long influenced by the “patriarchal ideology permeating the majority of societies,” suggests Joëlle Wiels, biologist and CNRS research director.5 “From the end of the 1950s to the early 1990s, biology, which is not—and will never be—a neutral field of knowledge, focused on the genes involved in the formation of the testes while completely ignoring those likely to play a role in development of the ovaries. Until recently, the overarching assumption was that babies are born as girls because they do not possess certain male genes, and that the Y chromosome play a crucial role in sex determination."
Truncated to fit max character limit - Full article at: https://news.cnrs.fr/articles/how-many-sexes-are-there
Somebody has excellent “cut and paste” skills….
Short, sweet and simple, from Kindergarten Cop, “Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina.”
This doesn't mean there are more than 2 sexes...it is a confirmation of defects.
The topic of this thread is on trans athletes having an unfair advantage in sports. Lia Thomas competed at a high level for three years in college even earning all conf. honors as a male. Lia then "transitioned" to be a female and is beating biological females by 38 seconds in some races. This is not fair to the girl she beat out to make the team and it is unfair to the athletes Lia competes against. They enter almost every race competing for second place.
I'm actually concerned about more than sports here. This could trickle down into all areas of our lives. Could someone who is white but identifies as black pull a reverse Michael Jackson and go from being white to black and claim they're black to get the benefits given to minorities? Seems wrong to me. There are so many benefits given to certain groups of people to try to help out people in good faith. Can those systems now be rigged because someone chooses to identify as something they were not born as.
Does that also include being kind to the athletic competition?
yea shouldnt the disrupter have the burden of being kind to the people they went out of their way to disrupt?
It’s all been about sports but you brought up a very good and very valid point. When does this stuff stop? When do we stop catering to people’s feelings? Everyone has obstacles and challenges they have to face in life. We shouldn’t be required to bend over backwards so that the perpetually offended always get their way.
I identify as a billionaire. Should my bank just hand over a stack of unmarked bills so that I don’t have a temper tantrum and sue them for discrimination?
Should a female who trained her whole life to be a successful competitive swimmer have all that work snuffed out by someone who did what Lia Thomas did? Should that be on LOTS also? Who cares where it’s discussed… it just shouldn’t be swept under the rug like many would like it to.
The New York Police Department had two separate promotional lists. One, a standard list and the second was for minorities. Their policy was that for every three people promoted from the standard list, they had to promote one from the minority list. A legal immigrant from South Africa who happened to be a white male listed himself as "African American" on his application and was therefore placed on the minority list. He just so happened to get the top score on the minority side. He was immediately promoted along with three from the standard list. The Black Officers Association went nuts and tried to block the promotion saying he was a "White Male" and not a minority. The case actually went to court where the judge found the promotion proper stating the fact that the person was born and raised in Africa and not skin color made him "African American".
I'm glad you mentioned this. I actually was thinking the same thing. Why can't someone apply for an african american scholarship and claim they associate as an african american? Why can't someone be awarded a job making an affirmative action claim. Obviously it's wrong, but so is this.
Revisiting 'Soul Man,' the controversial comedy starring a white man in blackface
The 1986 comedy went for laughs and tried to make a point in the process, but was met with plenty of resistance.
www.today.com
What are you talking about? We're talking about unfairness to women trying to compete. It would be no different if you were say 150lbs wrestler and had to compete against a 6'4" 250 lb wrestler. The 250# guy can't claim they associate as someone lighter. They have weight classes to insure fairness. How is a biological man competing against women any different or considered fair?
Difference today is that you wouldn't need to dress in blackface. You simply have to claim to "feel" like you are black. Maybe at most wear a skirt.Revisiting 'Soul Man,' the controversial comedy starring a white man in blackface
The 1986 comedy went for laughs and tried to make a point in the process, but was met with plenty of resistance.
Similar to when Chief Wild Eagle said, “Cannot make fur coat from feather of goose”
I rarely look at any forums other than basketball, and I think I need to keep it that way. Some people are just the worst.
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
It's an interesting article and I learned several things I did not know before. To me, that's a win.
Regarding copy-pastes, I do what I can to increase the chances (perhaps from .01 to .1) that the perpetually triggered delicate porcelain snowflake dolls here read something thoughtful by mistake. Taking an unintentional break from meanly delighting in knowing just how right they just are about fellow humans they regard as freaks while not actually knowing thing zero about thing one would be a win. And so, I removed the required proactive step of clicking a link to read something that contains scary trisyllabic (or worse!) words to lower a barrier to learning.
That said, I'll readily admit that I'm no Anne Sullivan. Nor am I am a Merge-style masochist. And so, I harbor zero expectations for you and the rest of the Juwanna Mann fans. Thankfully, Fox News delusions to the contrary and fevered grasping aside, that ilk broadly continues to trend down. So things aren't as bad as they may sometimes seem.
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A
anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
A man changing to a woman and dominating the women's sport is so on brand for America. What are we even doing here?
If you want to change your sex, that's your prerogative, but it doesnt give you cart blanche to ruin the sport for everyone else.
This is bull and should be corrected.
If you want to change your sex, that's your prerogative, but it doesnt give you cart blanche to ruin the sport for everyone else.
This is bull and should be corrected.
no we need to ruin it for the masses so one person wont have their feelings hurt. this is america 2022 baby!
This is why we should let the consumer decide. If people want to watch a transgender compete against women so be it. We hear all of the time sports is a business, it makes sense to me let the consumer decide. If people don't want to watch womens basketball anymore because of transgender athletes get rid of them from the sport. If people love watching transgender athletes in the womens game, those who disagree will be stuck with it. Maybe we will get to the point we have the NBA, WNBA, and TNBA.
It will never happen in the WNBA. There is money at stake and the players Union would file a class action suit. There is no college players Union.
