No more kneeling

[Merge]

So, moving on with this subject - who was wrong Trump or the Eagles , both, or neither???

I would have liked the White House to respond much differently than my toddler would have.

Trump could have turned this around and shown some attempts at unifying people by keeping the invite for those who wanted to attend and explain that he would be open to a dialogue with the rest of the team if they wanted... but they hit his ego so they paint the team as anti-American which is complete crap.

 

[SPK145]

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,"

That certainly sounds anti-American. And also incorrect as well.

But forcing people to stand for the anthem seems anti-American as well.

One should be able to do as you please during the anthem. Others are also free to condemn you for it, refuse to buy your product, private entities are free to regulate how you act during it, etc.

 

[Merge]

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,"

That certainly sounds anti-American. And also incorrect as well.

But forcing people to stand for the anthem seems anti-American as well.

One should be able to do as you please during the anthem. Others are also free to condemn you for it, refuse to buy your product, private entities are free to regulate how you act during it, etc.

I’m sorry which Eagle said that?
Which Eagle was kneeling last season?

 

[SPK145]

I’m sorry which Eagle said that?
Which Eagle was kneeling last season?

Kaepernick said that and they are all following his lead.

 

[Merge]

Kaepernick said that and they are all following his lead.

Nonsense. Kap turned down a White House invite?

Trump is divisive, especially towards the issue with NFL players protesting... that’s why they weren’t going to the White House.

NONE of the eagles kneeled last year.

 

[SPK145]

This is about much more than the Eagles and the WH visit.

If only 10 players were going to attend, why bother, just furthers the agenda on both sides.

You want to kneel/raise your fist, etc. during the anthem, fine; if I want to call you out for it, fine; if my private enterprise wants to limit how you can act, fine; if you don't like my policies, don't work for me and/or call me out for it; the government (ie., Trump) shouldn't be involved (I know how much you hate that thought, LOL!!)

 

[HALL85]

How many times of you seen this movie, and you still expect it to end differently? This is Trumps strategy, it got him elected, its retained his base, and the polls continue to show his approval increasing. Do I like or agree with it? NO, but it's worked for two years now...you expect him to stop?

Step 1 Someome says something critical (a person or group that has low er than average public support - (Congress, Hillary, MSM Press, NFL, Intelligence community....etc).
Step 2 Trump fires back harder and lower
Step 3 Origin of critical action doubles down and tries to play Trumps game
Step 4 Trump supporters emboldened; his haters go TDS; those in the middle respond one way or the other.
Step 5 Outrageous back and forth captures the front page and becomes a distraction while everyone ignores what is really going on. Anybody ever wonder what Mattis is doing??? lol

 

[Merge]

If only 10 players were going to attend, why bother, just furthers the agenda on both sides.

It would have been an opportunity for Trump to show character and leadership.

He chose to play the optics for his base instead.

 

[Pirata]

I would have liked the White House to respond much differently than my toddler would have.

I find it ironic that you lead off with an insult to your opposition and then call him out for not taking the high road.

 

[Merge]

I find it ironic that you lead off with an insult to your opposition and then call them out for not taking the high road.

I’m not running the country.

It’s not even that big of an insult. My 3yo daughter has literally picked up a ball and walked away from a friend that made her mad.

When faced with taking the high road in my profession and the far majority of my life, I do. My wife even complains that I do it too often.

 

[Pirata]

NONE of the eagles kneeled last year.

The Commander in Chief leads 2 million men and woman in uniform. I am pretty confident none of them will be standing with the fists in the air this evening when Retreat is sounded and the flag is lowered.

I am pretty confident at the hundreds or so military funerals that will take place today, when a soldier presents the US Flag to a widow and gently tells her, "On behalf of the President of the United States and a grateful nation, I wish to present you with this flag in appreciation for your husband’s service", no one will be standing with their fists in the air.

While soldiers serve to protect our free speech and right to protest, it would be nice if the favor was returned with a simple gesture of respect for the symbol that represents their (our) sacrifice.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

I just find this whole situation comical in the fact that every organization that is supporting the players ripped Tim Thomas of the Bruins for not going to the White House in 2012.

 

[knowknow456]

While soldiers serve to protect our free speech and right to protest, it would be nice if the favor was returned with a simple gesture of respect for the symbol that represents their (our) sacrifice.

It would be nice. The question is whether it is required.

 

[Merge]

The Commander in Chief leads 2 million men and woman in uniform. I am pretty confident none of them will be standing with the fists in the air this evening when Retreat is sounded and the flag is lowered.

"Staying in the Locker Room for the playing of our National Anthem is as disrespectful to our country as kneeling."

That is what Trump said in his tweet about the eagles.

First they sat. Too disrespectful.
Kap met with a Vet and decided a knee would be more appropriate. - Too disrespectful
Then a few stood with their fists in the air.

At the end of the day, you just don't agree with their protest.

For all of the criticism Kap has received for protesting the wrong way... Jenkins is the opposite.
He has done it the right way. His was told to stand and is standing. He raised his fist on some occasions to maintain focus on an issue which has provided him with a meeting with congressmen and he has also met with police officers.

If you still think that is about the flag or against those who have served....

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

"Staying in the Locker Room for the playing of our National Anthem is as disrespectful to our country as kneeling."

That is what Trump said in his tweet about the eagles.

First they sat. Too disrespectful.
Kap met with a Vet and decided a knee would be more appropriate. - Too disrespectful
Then a few stood with their fists in the air.

At the end of the day, you just don't agree with their protest.

For all of the criticism Kap has received for protesting the wrong way... Jenkins is the opposite.
He has done it the right way. His was told to stand and is standing. He raised his fist on some occasions to maintain focus on an issue which has provided him with a meeting with congressmen and he has also met with police officers.

If you still think that is about the flag or against those who have served....

If you want someone to listen to you, you can’t ask them to listen while doing something they consider to be a slap in the face. That’s common sense. People say trump is divisive and to a degree he is, but this is equally divisive. In 2 years it’s done nothing to get people talking about a solution just louder and louder yelling on both sides.

 

[Pirata]

Nice try Merge with the Your Aren't Listening sign. Very creative.

If you still think that is about the flag or against those who have served...

I guess you can't read or you think logic is city in Northern Poland.

I read all his signs including the lame one about police shootings. I think we have all discussed that one enough highlight the relative significance of those numbers.

I did not say his protest was was about the flag. I get his protest. I do think much of it is lame but I get his protest. My post stated that his protest is being carried out in a grossly disrespectful manner with the disrespect being thrust at something I and millions of Americans hold dear.

The manner of his protest is ineffective. Getting a meeting with a congressman could be done with a single phone call. I am not impressed. I am also pretty confident a police officer would return his phone call also.

For some reason you think it is OK for someone to disrespect someone else in the name of protest. I guess that's the way you and your ilk roll.

 

[SPK145]

It would be nice. The question is whether it is required.

That's the crux of the issue. And don't whine if someone calls you out for your position.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Nice try Merge with the Your Aren't Listening sign. Very creative.



I guess you can't read or you think logic is city in Northern Poland.

I read all his signs including the lame one about police shootings. I think we have all discussed that one enough highlight the relative significance of those numbers.

I did not say his protest was was about the flag. I get his protest. I do think much of it is lame but I get his protest. My post stated that his protest is being carried out in a grossly disrespectful manner with the disrespect being thrust at something I and millions of Americans hold dear.

The manner of his protest is ineffective. Getting a meeting with a congressman could be done with a single phone call. I am not impressed. I am also pretty confident a police officer would return his phone call also.

For some reason you think it is OK for someone to disrespect someone else in the name of protest. I guess that's the way you and your ilk roll.

What’s lost in all of this is the respect for a time and a place for everything. How many are for protests during mass on Sunday? It’s unacceptable because that is a time for worship. Maybe people view that to be acceptable as freedom of speech. I think most will not and to carry that same logic over to the anthem is pretty logical in my opinion

 

[Merge]

If you want someone to listen to you, you can’t ask them to listen while doing something they consider to be a slap in the face. That’s common sense. People say trump is divisive and to a degree he is, but this is equally divisive. In 2 years it’s done nothing to get people talking about a solution just louder and louder yelling on both sides.

That just isn't true though.

Some of these players are meeting with police, local representatives as well as congress.
People are listening to them.

I'm not saying this is the most well organized and effective protest in the history of protests... but if they were not protesting on a Sunday afternoon while everyone has their attention - all of it goes unnoticed. Maybe you believe that is a good thing, but they do not.
It is their protest which got them talking to the people they should be talking to.

 

[Merge]

For some reason you think it is OK for someone to disrespect someone else in the name of protest. I guess that's the way you and your ilk roll.

I believe in the freedom of speech and peaceful protests.
You are choosing to believe their protest is a sign of disrespect.. even though as they have stated many times, it is not.

Standing with your first raised is a much a violation of the flag code as wearing a flag as apparel or when the NFL carries out their giant flags horizontally.

If one of those bothers you, they all should.. yet I have not seen you complain about the other issues.. and the reason is not because you are offended by the protest, it is because you don't agree with it.

 

[HALL85]

That just isn't true though.

Some of these players are meeting with police, local representatives as well as congress.
People are listening to them.

I'm not saying this is the most well organized and effective protest in the history of protests... but if they were not protesting on a Sunday afternoon while everyone has their attention - all of it goes unnoticed. Maybe you believe that is a good thing, but they do not.
It is their protest which got them talking to the people they should be talking to.

How do you know people are talking, listening, but more important, what is happening as a result? Isn't that what this should be about? What is being done, implemented and has support from law enforcement and the community? I don't see much material actions to date, if any?

I would argue that this was a poorly organized and ineffective protest across the board.

 

[shuvrp]

You are choosing to believe their protest is a sign of disrespect.. even though as they have stated many times, it is not.

This is the crux of the issue that right wing propaganda has pounced upon. Kap met with a Green Beret, Nate Boyer, to determine the least disrespectful way to protest. Boyer suggested the kneel. In no way is the kneel meant to disrespect the military, yet people continue to believe that message put out there by the guy who dodged the draft with "bone spurs."

People are conflating patriotism with adherence to nationalistic rituals. A real patriot is critical of one's own government and does good deeds for their fellow citizens. I bet most of the people angry at these players haven't served, haven't fought for military pay raises, haven't spoken out against dumb wars that put our soldiers in danger for no reason other than to feed the military industrial complex, etc.

 

[knowknow456]

For some reason you think it is OK for someone to disrespect someone else in the name of protest.

The flag and/or the anthem is what is being disrespected.

 

[Pirata]

For some reason you think it is OK for someone to disrespect someone else in the name of protest.

The flag and/or the anthem is what is being disrespected.

Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Disrespect the flag and you are disrespecting me.

 

[Pirata]

You are choosing to believe their protest is a sign of disrespect.. even though as they have stated many times, it is not.

Kap met with a Green Beret, Nate Boyer, to determine the least disrespectful way to protest. Boyer suggested the kneel.

Yeah right...like one clueless Green Beret is the voice of protocol for the nation. Give me a break.

Merge, are you serious? Simply because these guys claim that it's not disrespectful in their minds you're saying that I and many millions of other Americans should accept that?

 

[shuvrp]

Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Disrespect the flag and you are disrespecting me.

Maybe you are being too sensitive about inanimate objects. A big talking point recently has been about political correctness and everyone getting offended by everything. This has never been more clear when you observe the outrage over a harmless and peaceful kneel juxtaposed with apathy shown at government corruption, campaign finance and things that are actually harming the country.

 

[knowknow456]

Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Disrespect the flag and you are disrespecting me.

1. You are not being disrespected; you feel disrespected. There is a difference.
2. Are Americans required to respect the flag?

 

[shuvrp]

Yeah right...like one clueless Green Beret is the voice of protocol for the nation. Give me a break.

"As Boyer scrambled in the aftermath (of an hours long skirmish he almost was killed in) to provide security, he smelled what he thought was burning chicken from a barbecue only to see a medic scraping ash off the charred torso of an American soldier."

That clueless Green Beret is an American hero who saw his fellow soldiers die in battle. Funny how you respect flags more than "clueless Green Berets"

 

[Pirata]

You are choosing to believe their protest is a sign of disrespect.. even though as they have stated many times, it is not.

This is the crux of the issue that right wing propaganda has pounced upon. Kap met with a Green Beret, Nate Boyer, to determine the least disrespectful way to protest. Boyer suggested the kneel. In no way is the kneel meant to disrespect the military, yet people continue to believe that message put out there by the guy who dodged the draft with "bone spurs."

People are conflating patriotism with adherence to nationalistic rituals. A real patriot is critical of one's own government and does good deeds for their fellow citizens. I bet most of the people angry at these players haven't served, haven't fought for military pay raises, haven't spoken out against dumb wars that put our soldiers in danger for no reason other than to feed the military industrial complex, etc.

I served. I'm pretty confident that anyone who has served would not characterize showing respect for the flag as a nationalist ritual.

Regarding your military complex dumb war rant you sound like a screenwriter for Monty Python. You should add oppressed proletariat and other catch phrases like that.

You should just take a minute sit back and think about what the world would be like if we erased the entire United States military. While not perfect it is what it is allowing you and much of the world to live the lives we live.

I personally have a lot more respect for Rosa Parks, MLK, etc, than any of these idiots in football uniforms.

 

[Merge]

Merge, are you serious? Simply because these guys claim that it's not disrespectful in their minds you're saying that I and many millions of other Americans should accept that?

Why does Malcom Jenkins standing while raising his fist offend you?

Because he is using that moment to call attention to something he believes is occurring towards the black community?

The only problem should be that he is not following the US flag code.. which millions of people bastardize each year.

So, yes. I am serious.
When you ask someone kneeling to stand up to show respect to those who have served and they do... why can you not accept that they are not disrespecting you?

 

[shuvrp]

I served. I'm pretty confident that anyone who has served would not characterize showing respect for the flag as a nationalist ritual.

Regarding your military complex dumb war rant you sound like a screenwriter for Monty Python. You should add oppressed proletariat and other catch phrases like that.

You should just take a minute sit back and think about what the world would be like if we erased the entire United States military. While not perfect it is what it is allowing you and much of the world to live the lives we live.

1) The National Anthem procession is certainly a nationalistic ritual, but I never said nationalistic rituals are negative things like you are interpreting.
2) If you don't think we have a military industrial complex that influences foreign policy and our military for its own gain, I don't know what to tell you.
3) I wish I was a screenwriter for Monty Python
4) If you erased the entire US military I have no idea what the world would look like.
5) Thanks for your service and dialogue

 

[Merge]

How do you know people are talking, listening, but more important, what is happening as a result? Isn't that what this should be about? What is being done, implemented and has support from law enforcement and the community? I don't see much material actions to date, if any?

I would argue that this was a poorly organized and ineffective protest across the board.

I'm not really into a debate about the efficacy.
The criticism originally was that kneeling does nothing and they should be working with police and lawmakers to find solutions which some have done.

Criticizing their impact to date seems like nitpicking to me. I am sure there are thousands or protests each year that no one ever hears about. I don't need to grade them. They are not my protests. Only the people protesting can decide about how effective they are.

 

[Pirata]

If you look at the definition of ritual I think you might find custom, courtesy, or tradition a better way to describe showing respect for the flag.

While I appreciate the intent of you thanking me for my service, I would be more appreciative of the action of showing respect to the flag.

I also appreciate your dialogue. I also appreciate and would welcome dialogue with the NFL players but not in the manner they choose to do so.

 

[Merge]

While I appreciate the intent of you thanking me for my service, I would be more appreciative of the action of showing respect to the flag.

If it were about showing respect to the flag -

Does it bother you when people wear an American flag shirt?
Does it bother you when people put an American flag on their car so it whips in the wind and frays at the end?
Does it bother you when an NFL team carries out a flag onto the field and displays it horizontally?

All of those show a lack of respect to the flag.

 

[HALL85]

I find it interesting that there are four pages in this thread and no mention of the alleged problem and what solutions are being proposed or enacted.

But we are having a "conversation", so all is good. I'm going to post "problem solved" on my facebook, snapchat and Instagram accounts....Isn't that how it works?

 

[Merge]

I find it interesting that there are four pages in this thread and no mention of the alleged problem and what solutions are being proposed or enacted.

But we are having a "conversation", so all is good. I'm going to post "problem solved" on my facebook, snapchat and Instagram accounts....Isn't that how it works?

A civil rights movement isn't resolved in a short timeline.
As Rosa Parks was mentioned in this thread, we only know her story because she was the figure they decided to use for a movement.
The NAACP had been trying to end bus segregation for years before Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat. Several Women were arrested for the same "crime" prior to Rosa Parks giving up her seat.

This stuff doesn't happen overnight.
Maybe Kap wasn't the right leader for the movement, Jenkins is far more eloquent even when not talking.
Maybe we haven't seen the right leader emerge yet. Maybe this will take 10 years before we can look back at Kap taking a seat leading to something positive or maybe it will fizzle out altogether - but it will not occur based on your expectation of the "correct" timeline.

 

[HALL85]

A civil rights movement isn't resolved in a short timeline.
As Rosa Parks was mentioned in this thread, we only know her story because she was the figure they decided to use for a movement.
The NAACP had been trying to end bus segregation for years before Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat. Several Women were arrested for the same "crime" prior to Rosa Parks giving up her seat.

This stuff doesn't happen overnight.
Maybe Kap wasn't the right leader for the movement, Jenkins is far more eloquent even when not talking.
Maybe we haven't seen the right leader emerge yet. Maybe this will take 10 years before we can look back at Kap taking a seat leading to something positive or maybe it will fizzle out altogether - but it will not occur based on your expectation of the "correct" timeline.

Comparing this alleged widespread injustice to Rosa Parks and the civil rights movement of the 60s is about as ridiculous as you can get. Kind of like comparing murder with littering.

 

[Merge]

Comparing this alleged widespread injustice to Rosa Parks and the civil rights movement of the 60s is about as ridiculous as you can get. Kind of like comparing murder with littering.

TO YOU... Sure

TO THEM... No.

and even if it's not an exact equal comparison... Why does it have to be?
This is a civil rights issue, not to be resolved on your timeline. Sorry.

 

[HALL85]

TO YOU... Sure

TO THEM... No.

and even if it's not an exact equal comparison... Why does it have to be?
This is a civil rights issue, not to be resolved on your timeline. Sorry.

Stick to your ridiculous comparison.

The vast majority of Americans, including police support weeding out bad cops. If anything, the protest has had the opposite effect in improving the situation. That is whats sad.

 

[Pirata]

If it were about showing respect
Does it bother you when people wear an American flag shirt?
Does it bother you when people put an American flag on their car so it whips in the wind and frays at the end?
Does it bother you when an NFL team carries out a flag onto the field and displays it horizontally?

All of those show a lack of respect to the flag.

How you get from A to B is astounding.

I'm surprised you didn't add in Olympians who take their victory lap with the flag draped around their shoulders.

If you think I'm going to take your bait , you're wrong.

Answer your own questions. Your little game is obvious.

You can't see the forest for the trees.

But just by way of reminder, remember that littering is not the same as murder.