OT: NY Giants' Stretch Run

[TomD82]

You can only coach the players the GM drafts for you and the free agents he signs and the weaknesses in the OL, in the defensive backfield , the lack of a two- way TE, problems at linebacking are all Reese's fault and it's time for both the GM and Coach to go.

112 and 80. I agree on the LBs because the front office has totally downgraded the position. They don't want faster smaller LBs or DLs who are speed rushers. Reese looked fine when he drafted Kevin Boss and signed Martellus Bennett who the Giants revived his career. And Will Tye has played well. He was good enough to be recruited by FSU. I actually think it is a philosophical probelm within the organization with the protoype players they want and things like the OL players to be able to play all positions on the OL. Then they try these 1 year deals with players like Bennett and Kamika Mitchell and when it works they leave right after via FA.

Rogers Cromartie is a quality DB. That WR who the GM drafted laying out for the ball to cut the lead to 6 pts looked fine. I have said the Reese does have culupability, but this team has the talent to compete week in and week out. The defense was actually +10 in turnovers going into today's game. Most teams with that are like 8-3 now.

I think Coughlin and his staff are on board with these picks especially the Syracuse players and says we can coach them up, but it turns out they can't. I didn't post Coughlin was never a good coach, but he is way past his time here.

When George Young said when they it's not about the money it's all about the money he knew because with the Giants it's all about the money. The exception is the QB and even there they think he is elite and can make everyone around him better.

As I said Reese deserves some blame here, but if this team ever lost its QB the way Romo has been lost Coughlin would make Jason Garrett look like a genius when he coached without his QB.

 

[Piratz]

Recently read somewhere that there are 5 players who should be let go because the production the Giants are getting from them doesn't justify their contract whether it be because of being consistently injured and unable to get on or stay on the field or their production on the field. The list begins with Beatty, Beason , Schwartz , Jennings and Cruz . Letting them go will create $15 plus million in cap space although the article said the Giants could try to resign Cruz at a much lower number. The question about Reese is whether you think he can spend the cap space and fill the Giants holes thru free agency . For me the answer is no based on his recent record in free agency.

The numbers are about that on just Cruz, Beatty, and Beason. http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-york-giants

It sets up perfectly to give a new leadership team an ability to make changes. My guess is if they play well and win the division, both return without question. My guess is 9 wins. Either 9-7 and one and done in the playoffs or 8-8 and win a game, 7-9 and win 2, something like that at a minimum.

If they don't, Coughlin goes and Reese stays. Personally I find them tied at the hip and would let both go. The erosion of the team in recent years lies at both of their feet. They've tried everything you can try to rebuild it from changing the offense (2013), the defense (2014), importing FA's, reconfigured draft philosophies... There's nothing left.

That's why it's pivotal to see what this group does. They could be 8-3 right now. Or 4-7. Perfectly inconsistent at 5-6. They have a losing record, but positive point differential. Need to see where this team ends up.

 

[hallgrad80]

TD82
I believe where you and I disagree on Reese is that the attributes you look for in today's player , especially on defense , has changed because of the type of offensive schemes that are being run today and Reese and his pro personnel department and scouting staff have not kept pace in recognizing what you need to look for in today's players in order to be successful . Even John Mara has publicly acknowledged that Reese's 2010,2011 and 2012 drafts were"disappointing" ( translated means bad ) and those three bad drafts are a key part of these team's struggles the last couple of years and taken with his busts in free agency just have convinced me it's time for him to go.

 

[Piratz]

TD82
Even John Mara has publicly acknowledged that Reese's 2010,2011 and 2012 drafts were "disappointing" ( translated means bad ) and those three bad drafts are a key part of these team's struggles the last couple of years and taken with his busts in free agency just have convinced me it's time for him to go.

And to have consecutive drafts like that are absolute killers because then nobody is developing in years 1-3 after each of them. So it compounds, and you end up with the type of glaring holes they've had the past few seasons when those years should've been developing.

For instance, the Giants were totally unprepared to rebuild the lines when those championship cores began to age and deteriorate in 2012-13. They had nothing to replace the likes of Snee, Diehl, Tuck, Osi, etc in 2012-13. Those were special groups for sure, but you shouldn't have had the drop off they had where you're losing 6 or 7 games in a row each year.

The past few drafts (2013-15) seem improved, but again, all of those players are in that first phase of development.

You can't rely on FA's in the NFL.

 

[TomD82]

TD82
I believe where you and I disagree on Reese is that the attributes you look for in today's player , especially on defense , has changed because of the type of offensive schemes that are being run today and Reese and his pro personnel department and scouting staff have not kept pace in recognizing what you need to look for in today's players in order to be successful . Even John Mara has publicly acknowledged that Reese's 2010,2011 and 2012 drafts were"disappointing" ( translated means bad ) and those three bad drafts are a key part of these team's struggles the last couple of years and taken with his busts in free agency just have convinced me it's time for him to go.

I don't disagree entirely. But, I don't think it is only Reese's own philosophy. I believe what Mara said is we have to do better in the later rounds of the draft. Then he also said about the coaching staff 2 years ago I don't know why it took 3 years to figure out Jerrel Jernigan can play. He also said after the Jacksonville game about the coaching staff I wanted to fire everybody.

The NFL is all about parity and honestly, if I was the owner of this team and I watched these game debacles like Jacksonville, Eagles, 49ers, Dallas game New England etc. I would say what the hell is this coaching staff doing? This coach is still here because of Mara's old man. Maybe a GM/AD should get to pick his own coach. Sound familar?

Thanks

 

[TomD82]

And to have consecutive drafts like that are absolute killers because then nobody is developing in years 1-3 after each of them. So it compounds, and you end up with the type of glaring holes they've had the past few seasons when those years should've been developing.

For instance, the Giants were totally unprepared to rebuild the lines when those championship cores began to age and deteriorate in 2012-13. They had nothing to replace the likes of Snee, Diehl, Tuck, Osi, etc in 2012-13. Those were special groups for sure, but you shouldn't have had the drop off they had where you're losing 6 or 7 games in a row each year.

The past few drafts (2013-15) seem improved, but again, all of those players are in that first phase of development.

You can't rely on FA's in the NFL.

David Wilson did develop and he was a very late draft pick. Nicks was an intergal part of a championship. Jernigan as a mentioned above was a 3rd round pick. As I said Mara talked about the later rounds. They stuck to their draft board on picks like Marvin Austin despite the warning signs. That's part of my argument.

 

[Piratz]

Why would you want Reese to stay though? You really think he's that good of a GM and the coach has just messed it up for 3+ seasons?

I know there's this tired adage of the Giants "not changing" GM's. Wellington Mara was very loyal, especially to people who won for him. The Ray Handley and Dan Reeves Eras were not good to George Young; 5 of 6 seasons without playoffs, only 1 winning record and 1 playoff appearance and win. He was hearing it. Especially since it was a new era in the NFL (free agency). But Young was still allowed to choose Jim Fassel before passing the baton to Ernie Accorsi (also brought on by Young after working with Accorsi in Baltimore) because Young had restored order to the Giants and won two championships with Bill Parcells.

Conventional thinking is based upon that era and that the Giants would retain Reese, not Coughlin. But I'm not so sure. I think John Mara is a bit different, but he hasn't been in this spot before.

 

[bd98]

Why would you want Reese to stay though? You think he's that good of a GM?

Just look at how today's game ended. After somehow getting themselves back in the game despite playing like utter dog-doo for 50 minutes the Giants defense had the Redskins in a 3rd down and needed to make one play to give the offense a chance to win that game. Unfortunately on that one play the Redskins noticed that Jordan Reed was being covered by Craig Dahl. Easy completion, game over. No other GM would possibly think Dahl (or Newhouse or pretty much any linebacker on the roster) was an NFL player. This roster is littered with guys who should be working as Wendy's fry cooks. That's on Reese. What the hell is Coughlin supposed to do with that garbage? This fiasco is Reese. It's all Reese.

 

[Piratz]

Just look at how today's game ended. After somehow getting themselves back in the game despite playing like utter dog-doo for 50 minutes the Giants defense had the Redskins in a 3rd down and needed to make one play to give the offense a chance to win that game. Unfortunately on that one play the Redskins noticed that Jordan Reed was being covered by Craig Dahl. Easy completion, game over. No other GM would possibly think Dahl (or Newhouse or pretty much any linebacker on the roster) was an NFL player. This roster is littered with guys who should be working as Wendy's fry cooks. That's on Reese. What the hell is Coughlin supposed to do with that garbage? This fiasco is Reese. It's all Reese.

Newhouse has been a turnstile. Again today. Even the interior backups held up alright. Beatty got hurt in May and they did nothing. In the last game they finally come up with a game-changing hit on Brady and Newhouse promptly allows Nincovich to abuse him and push the team out of FG range.

Has been totally exposed as the season has gone on, which was going to happen.

Sigh.

Reese knew safety would be a mess and did nothing. Hosley and Randle continue to roam around without any idea what's going on most of the time.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[hbkmyr]

Speaking of coaching (and this is really more that it annoys me, rather than it effected of the outcome) but whose idea was it to run your worst running back and maybe one of the worst players on the team, Williams, twice when backed up deep In their own end of the field In the 1st half?

 

[Piratz]

Speaking of coaching (and this is really more that it annoys me, rather than it effected of the outcome) but whose idea was it to run your worst running back and maybe one of the worst players on the team, Williams, twice when backed up deep In their own end of the field In the 1st half?

They do this every game. Some token chance for Williams to run well in a few carries. Never happens. Is it just me or do they not try to run to the edges often?

They should scrap all jumbo formations and just run out of the spread anyway.

 

[TomD82]

Piratz,

Honestly I think John Mara wants to take a more Jerry Jones type of role with his team. He was quoted on taking Hankins. IMHO his cousin Chris Mara will be the next GM.

The team did not want to spend on defense and thought JPP and Ayers would be enough of a pass rush, but they did move up to get Collins as the first pick of the entire 2nd rd to address safety. The rest of the DL Wynn, Kuhn etc. they thought they could coach up. They think they can coach anybody up and the coach is on board with that. Mara was quoted that he wanted JPP and Rolle back only at the right price The defense was plus 10 in takeaways this year and that is huge even if it is a smoke and mirrors defense. The coach blew games with that ratio.

The game today and previous post from hbkmyr on Williams is just another example of the coach not having the pulse of his team and absurd decisions. Vereen or Jennings can get you breathing room there.

This coach was a very good coach who went to an AFC championship game and had two magical runs with 9-7 veteran teams. He has done nothing since and it isn't because of a complete lack of talent. This franchise has not been Jacksonsville, Tampa and Tenneesee as far as level of talent the past several years.

hbkmyr

 

[TomD82]

Newhouse has been a turnstile. Again today. Even the interior backups held up alright. Beatty got hurt in May and they did nothing. In the last game they finally come up with a game-changing hit on Brady and Newhouse promptly allows Nincovich to abuse him and push the team out of FG range.

Has been totally exposed as the season has gone on, which was going to happen.

Sigh.

Reese knew safety would be a mess and did nothing. Hosley and Randle continue to roam around without any idea what's going on most of the time.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

I think their plan along was to have Flowers start at RT until Beatty got hurt. And Shereffs has shown he can't play OT at this level. Flowers was a good pick. Their drafting system does not value OLs and LBs any longer. Flowers was their first legit tackle taken since Jumbo Elliot. Usually it is a reach pick like Pugh for OL. I have no problem if a guy like Pugh or Shereff has to be moved inside to OG, but he had better be a road grader. They just don't like these big fat ass type OL.

 

[Piratz]

TomD, they were a total mess in the first half. They looked like a team that was on vacation. It was a sloppy, terrible mess. They looked completely unprepared across the board. That falls on Coughlin. No argument from me. The players too though.

That team did not look ready to play. Eli lost track of the play clock on one play, Vereen and Harris are turning catches into interceptions, Hosely and Merriweather get beaten deep (AGAIN!) by the one player that only goes deep, and so on and so forth. The postgame comments by the players reveal as much.

They're not good enough to get away with it when the offense plays that way. The defense does not have the talent to bail out the offense. Ever. They were down 17-0 and outgained more than 2:1 (238 to 110). I thought they were much better in the second half where they outgained the Redskins by a good margin (222 to 164) and found ways to get their deep passing game going.

That Eli-OBJ tandem is fun to watch. And they need it to be because there's not much else going on there because Randle continues to be a disappointment and the team (AGAIN!) has one of the worst rushing attacks in the NFL.

 

[TomD82]

A

TomD, they were a total mess in the first half. They looked like a team that was on vacation. It was a sloppy, terrible mess. They looked completely unprepared across the board. That falls on Coughlin. No argument from me. The players too though.

That team did not look ready to play. Eli lost track of the play clock on one play, Vereen and Harris are turning catches into interceptions, Hosely and Merriweather get beaten deep (AGAIN!) by the one player that only goes deep, and so on and so forth. The postgame comments by the players reveal as much.

They're not good enough to get away with it when the offense plays that way. The defense does not have the talent to bail out the offense. Ever. They were down 17-0 and outgained more than 2:1 (238 to 110). I thought they were much better in the second half where they outgained the Redskins by a good margin (222 to 164) and found ways to get their deep passing game going.

That Eli-OBJ tandem is fun to watch. And they need it to be because there's not much else going on there because Randle continues to be a disappointment and the team (AGAIN!) has one of the worst rushing attacks in the NFL.

Again I don't disagree, but I never said the defense was good enough to get away with just that they played well or made some plays enough this year to win games that the HC blew and or put them in bad situations to lose. As a coach he should have been all over Randle on that Eli EZ INT. Think James Jones would be as inconsistent like Randle is? Whose fault is that the GM again?

There is the Desean Jackson game, the Saints game, the Dallas game, the 49er game last year, the NE game and the Jacksonville debacle, at least 2 late season collapes an 0-6 start, 2 home playoff loses and you guys want to put it all on the GM for some bad early and middle round picks like the draft is an exact science. You guys make it sound like all of Reese's picks are Vernon Golhston, Quinton Coples, Trent Richardson and Johnny Manziel.

This coach has been living off his Super Bowls capital for years now. He has been given enough talent to at least make some playoff appearances since then but he has done nothing.

 

[its haLL baLL]

David Wilson did develop and he was a very late draft pick. Nicks was an intergal part of a championship. Jernigan as a mentioned above was a 3rd round pick. As I said Mara talked about the later rounds. They stuck to their draft board on picks like Marvin Austin despite the warning signs. That's part of my argument.

David Wilson was 1st round draft pick. Jernnigan was a bit player for a few weeks at the end of one season and if he is so talented, why is out of the league completely? Reese's drafts have been poor overall and the coaching has been equally poor this season. It is time to clean house, unless somehow they put together a miracle run to the end the season. There is not enough quality on either side of the ball and the coaching has not done its part to coach what talent is there.

I don't understand your high opinion of Reese whatsoever. Look back at his draft classes and free-agent signings - they're not very good. You seem to justify all of Reese's missteps as somehow being the fault of Mara or Coughlin. Truth is, Jerry Reese has not been a very good GM.

 

[hbkmyr]

It falls on the feet of both the GM and Coach. This team woefully lacks much talent and that is Reese's fault. Yet, even with the limited talent, the team has been in position to win several games, but couldn't. That's on Coughlin. Both need to go.

 

[its haLL baLL]

It falls on the feet of both the GM and Coach. This team woefully lacks much talent and that is Reese's fault. Yet, even with the limited talent, the team has been in position to win several games, but couldn't. That's on Coughlin. Both need to go.

Agree 100%.

 

[TomD82]

It's not that I ha

David Wilson was 1st round draft pick. Jernnigan was a bit player for a few weeks at the end of one season and if he is so talented, why is out of the league completely? Reese's drafts have been poor overall and the coaching has been equally poor this season. It is time to clean house, unless somehow they put together a miracle run to the end the season. There is not enough quality on either side of the ball and the coaching has not done its part to coach what talent is there.

I don't understand your high opinion of Reese whatsoever. Look back at his draft classes and free-agent signings - they're not very good. You seem to justify all of Reese's missteps as somehow being the fault of Mara or Coughlin. Truth is, Jerry Reese has not been a very good GM.

It's not that I have such a high opinion of Reese it is that the teams he has assembled have been able to compete yet this is this will be the worst stretch since 1980 if they don't make the playoffs this year. All GMs should be able to choose their coach and Coughlin should have been gone.

I have cited at least half a dozen games where the coach lost the game with strategy, coaching decisions and clock management, had 2 collapses after being 6-2, started 0-6 kept Preston Parker over James Jones and guys here put all the blame on some safety the GM picked who can't play. I didn't see an Ed Reed out there that the GM failed to sign or draft.

Funny how the Patriots are playing all these DB and OL players like the Giants have due to their drafting and injuries yet they barely miss a beat.

 

[its haLL baLL]

It's not that I ha


It's not that I have such a high opinion of Reese it is that the teams he has assembled have been able to compete yet this is this will be the worst stretch since 1980 if they don't make the playoffs this year. All GMs should be able to choose their coach and Coughlin should have been gone.

I have cited at least half a dozen games where the coach lost the game with strategy, coaching decisions and clock management, had 2 collapses after being 6-2, started 0-6 kept Preston Parker over James Jones and guys here put all the blame on some safety the GM picked who can't play. I didn't see an Ed Reed out there that the GM failed to sign or draft.

Funny how the Patriots are playing all these DB and OL players like the Giants have due to their drafting and injuries yet they barely miss a beat.

The Patriots argument goes both ways. Is it because their coaches are able to get the most out of them or is it because they have more quality depth than the Giants? In my opinion, it's more coaching than quality but Belichick is in a class of his own. However, you could make the argument that the Giants starters are other teams reserves.

I agree with what you are saying regarding the coaching. It has been bad this year, plain and simple, but the team also lacks talent. Coughlin and Reese had a good run that brought two Super Bowls. They've been more successful than most, but it is time to move on.

 

[Piratz]

The problem with this logic is you're giving Reese the credit for fielding a "competitive" team, but giving Coughlin the grief for the losses. Problem I have with that is I think the staff has coached up questionable talent and horrendous depth to be "competitive," especially in 2013 and 2014. They were besieged by injuries and had zero depth behind any of it because the drafts from 2010-12 were not good.

Unfortunately they couldn't close the deal against the Cowboys, Falcons, Saints, and Patriots, and I really don't want to debate what happened in those games because there are multiple offenders in each loss beyond just the head coach.

I would start fresh and remove both Coughlin and Reese if they team implodes. You're certainly not going to retain Coughlin and fire Reese. That's dyfunctional. I do not think Coughlin should return if the team does not rally and win the division. If they do, he's earned it.

Meanwhile Dave Gettleman is 11-0 and built a defense.

 

[hbkmyr]

The reason they are "competitive" is a byproduct of the schedule and the crappy division. They've played two teams this year which are over .500 the Pats and Falcons (who actually stink).

 

[Section112]

It falls on the feet of both the GM and Coach. This team woefully lacks much talent and that is Reese's fault. Yet, even with the limited talent, the team has been in position to win several games, but couldn't. That's on Coughlin. Both need to go.

I agree with this. Noone is saying it's only Reese. We should easily have two or three more wins this year and the coaching has been bad. But when we need a stop or someone to make a play we don't have much talent to do that. We become easy to defend because everyone knows cover Beckham and sometimes Vereen and you stop the Giants. Everyone knows the O line is not gonna give Eli a lot of time. And everyone knows the D line is gonna give their QB lots of time and little pressure. That's on the players to make a play and it just hasn't been happening at crucial times. The last three drafts have been better with the high picks. Hell I could have made those high picks but this combo of Reese and Coughlin are just not getting it done and the lower round draft picks have contributed very little. It seems like all the free agents they get are injured and can't stay on the field. Vereen was a very good pickup but we sign free agents and they get hurt constantly each year and don't play. It's not working. Time for a wholesale change no matter what happens the rest of the year IMO.

 

[Piratz]

The reason they are "competitive" is a byproduct of the schedule and the crappy division. They've played two teams this year which are over .500 the Pats and Falcons (who actually stink).

The fact that the division has fallen apart is even more of an indictment on them. But you can only line up against those on your schedule. Only 10 of 32 teams have winning records in the league. This is the new NFL.

In 2013 they went 7-9 and had a -89 point differential. In 2014 they went 6-10 and were -20. This year they are 5-6, but have a +20 point differential. And doing so with a defense that is currently ranked 29th of 32 in yards/play.

Again, if they don't win the division I bid adieu to the management, thank them for the two Super Bowls and start fresh.

 

[TomD82]

I agree with this. Noone is saying it's only Reese. We should easily have two or three more wins this year and the coaching has been bad. But when we need a stop or someone to make a play we don't have much talent to do that. We become easy to defend because everyone knows cover Beckham and sometimes Vereen and you stop the Giants. Everyone knows the O line is not gonna give Eli a lot of time. And everyone knows the D line is gonna give their QB lots of time and little pressure. That's on the players to make a play and it just hasn't been happening at crucial times. The last three drafts have been better with the high picks. Hell I could have made those high picks but this combo of Reese and Coughlin are just not getting it done and the lower round draft picks have contributed very little. It seems like all the free agents they get are injured and can't stay on the field. Vereen was a very good pickup but we sign free agents and they get hurt constantly each year and don't play. It's not working. Time for a wholesale change no matter what happens the rest of the year IMO.

Rodgers Cromartie and Harris were also very good FA signings. Call it the state of the division or league parity whatever the team has been right there and more often than not the coaching staff has not been getting in done for several years now.

If I'm the GM and I see a good FA signing fielding a punt at the 7 yard line with 30 seconds that was going into the end zone, a team that comes out not ready to play, failure to kick punts out of bounds about the only way to lose the game at that time if he doesn't, cutting a proven veteran WR for Preston Parker and blown clock management game after game I'd say to myself this guy is coaching to get me fired. And it looks like just that is going to happen.

 

[Section112]

Its ultimately the GMs decision who to keep and who to cut so cutting that WR and keeping Parker is on Reese as well as Coughlin. They are glued together and need to go. Harris and Cromartie were good signings but why did we have no draft picks in the pipeline to play CB other than Amukamara? How about all the failed free agent signings under Reese - Thurmand - never played, Casillas ($8M) - so so, JT Thomas last year - 3 yrs $12M - has he even seen the field?, John Jerry - last year rated the worst O lineman, Charles Brown OL - not. These are recent. Vereen was a very good signing and so was Ayers and Harris. Rodgers Cromartie had better be good with the money we are paying him - he had a pick 6 yesterday in his hands that would have changed the game but blew it and now is also hurt. He is good but far from an elite CB. Reese's free agent signings are Ok at best IMO.

 

[Piratz]

They need to rally and win the next two games against the Jets (6-5) at home and then at the Dolphins (4-7) on MNF.

NY Giants (5-6; 2-3 in division)
NYJ (6-5)
@MIA (4-7)
CAR (11-0)
@MIN (8-3)
PHI (4-7)

Washington (5-6; 2-1 in division)
DAL (3-8)
@CHI (5-6)
BUF (5-6)
@PHI (4-7)
@DAL (3-8)

 

[Piratz]

If I'm the GM and I see a good FA signing fielding a punt at the 7 yard line with 30 seconds that was going into the end zone, a team that comes out not ready to play, failure to kick punts out of bounds about the only way to lose the game at that time if he doesn't, cutting a proven veteran WR for Preston Parker and blown clock management game after game I'd say to myself this guy is coaching to get me fired. And it looks like just that is going to happen.

This team has the same fundamental issue they've had the past few years. They are one-dimensional and every game has a razor thin margin of error.

They have a terrible defense and cannot run the ball. That's why they have such trouble closing out games and blow leads. Is another coach going to make this talent better in those areas? Here's hoping. If you do not have a team proficient in at least one of the following two areas, you're going to have trouble holding leads:

2015 = 29th in yards/play allowed on defense, 27th in rushing yards/attempt on offense
2014 = 30th in yards/play allowed on defense, 28th in rushing yards/attempt on offense

Think about that list you rattled off of the tough losses the past two seasons. Imagine if they were just league-average in those two areas and put that into those games.

And then there's this...

Marshall Newhouse (-6.1) has proven throughout his career that he’s not an NFL-caliber player. He recorded his worst grade of the year against Washington, finishing with a -6.8 pass protection grade. Overall, he allowed three sacks, a hit, and five hurries, mostly to Ryan Kerrigan (+5.1). Newhouse is now graded as our 76th overall tackle (out of 78 qualifying players) and has a pass blocking efficiency in the bottom five. He’s allowed the most combined pressures in the league (45), having surrendered four sacks, six hits, and 35 hurries

https://www.profootballfocus.com/bl...des-redskins-offensive-line-solid-in-victory/

 

[TomD82]

Its ultimately the GMs decision who to keep and who to cut so cutting that WR and keeping Parker is on Reese as well as Coughlin. They are glued together and need to go. Harris and Cromartie were good signings but why did we have no draft picks in the pipeline to play CB other than Amukamara? How about all the failed free agent signings under Reese - Thurmand - never played, Casillas ($8M) - so so, JT Thomas last year - 3 yrs $12M - has he even seen the field?, John Jerry - last year rated the worst O lineman, Charles Brown OL - not. These are recent. Vereen was a very good signing and so was Ayers and Harris. Rodgers Cromartie had better be good with the money we are paying him - he had a pick 6 yesterday in his hands that would have changed the game but blew it and now is also hurt. He is good but far from an elite CB. Reese's free agent signings are Ok at best IMO.

The Giants philosophy for years now since George Young was hired is owners own, general managers mange and coaches coach. James Jones if he was a salary cap casualty never would have been signed. Cutting him is all on Coughlin. Especially in light of the Cruz injury situation all along.

This coach GM situation is not like Young and Dan Reeves who wanted no part of players like Tyrone Wheatly, Dave Brown and Derek Brown the coach has been on board with all of this. At some point you have to stop trying to put all the blame on the GM, the DCs and the OC. And I was no fan of Tim Lewis, Bill Sheridan, Perry Fewell and Kevin Gilbride. This coach has gotten a pass for years now.

Dwayne Harris yesterday:
"I think we were ready to play but we probably took this team a little bit for granted because ... I don't know," Harris said. "I don't know everyone else's mindset but we came out slow. I think everyone was ready to play but we came out too slow."

 

[Piratz]

At some point you have to stop trying to put all the blame on the GM, the DCs and the OC. And I was no fan of Tim Lewis, Bill Sheridan, Perry Fewell and Kevin Gilbride. This coach has gotten a pass for years now.

TomD, he's going to be gone if they don't win the division. There's nothing that will be changed over the next 5 weeks, so in the meantime, who do you want to be the next coach then? Who can coach this roster up to the level you think it should be?

 

[Section112]

I'm not giving a pass to Coughlin at all. I said I want him to be fired. How is that giving him a pass? But the GM has done a terrible job plain and simple. Not worth arguing if you think this is a good roster??

 

[TomD82]

TomD, he's going to be gone if they don't win the division. There's nothing that will be changed over the next 5 weeks, so in the meantime, who do you want to be the next coach then? Who can coach this roster up to the level you think it should be?

I would look for a defensive minded assistant who could motivate better and coach up younger players better. Somebody like Bowles would have been good because TC never should have been brought back after last year given the situation. That is what you have a GM for.

Either John Mara does not have the balls to do what should have been done because of what TC meant to his father and the 2 SBs or as I posted he is getting ready to clean house and take a more Jerry Jones type role in football operations.

 

[Piratz]

I would look for a defensive minded assistant who could motivate better and coach up younger players better. Somebody like Bowles would have been good because TC never should have been brought back after last year given the situation. That is what you have a GM for.

Either John Mara does not have the balls to do what should have been done because of what TC meant to his father and the 2 SBs or as I posted he is getting ready to clean house and take a more Jerry Jones type role in football operations.

The losing and the way that they've lost these games is really going to erase out any sentimental value. I mean, these have been torturous games between last year and this year.

I don't think Mara has retained Coughlin based on sentimental value. I think there were a lot of reasonable discussions and evaluations that took place as to why Coughlin has survived the past couple of years. Also think it was a big help that they went from 0-6 to 7-9 in 2013 and 3-9 to 6-10 last year. The strong finishes in bad seasons help coaches immensely. His teams didn't quit.

I'd probably go in that direction as well with a new HC and try to find a scenario where keeping McAdoo on board would work because the thought of having to go through yet another offensive scheme change (would be 3rd offense in 4 seasons) is not a pleasant one.

 

[hallgrad80]

You are what your record is and the simple truth is that the Giants have made the playoffs once in the past six years and that's on Reese, Coughlin and Mara . Even worse this Giant team doesn't have the pieces to say that they're a team on an uptick and just need a few pieces to compete quite the opposite they have far more needs then answers with their roster.

How many players can you say are impact players. Manning and ODB on offense, JPP on defense. No one on the OL. No one at RB , No one at TE or WR. On the DL I like Hankins but who else is a difference maker, the same at LB or in the secondary although Kennard could become a solid LB.

No running game, WR's , other then ODB , who are inconsistent or don't drop passes and don't run the right routes , no quality TE and a porous OL. There was a reason why ODB was targeted 18 times yesterday because the other WR'S and TE's are unreliable. That's just some of the issues with the offense.

No pass rush on defense , a secondary who can't defend, especially deep , LB's who can't pass defend and a DL that can't get a stop when they need it.

Given the above how can anyone argue for Reese to be back he's the guy who put this team together.

 

[TomD82]

112, I did not mean you personally giving the coach a pass I am referring to the general sentiment of this board, the public and the media. My whole point here is saying that this GM gave the coach almost no talent to win is not accurate. There were also posts about getting a new GM to give the coach players he wants to coach. As I also posted there is no Reeves/Young situation and certainly not a John Idzik set up Rex Ryan to fail scenario.

Piratz, you make a valid point about the season ending finishes. That must have swayed Mara.

 

[Section112]

112, I did not mean you personally giving the coach a pass I am referring to the general sentiment of this board, the public and the media. My whole point here is saying that this GM gave the coach almost no talent to win is not accurate. There were also posts about getting a new GM to give the coach players he wants to coach. As I also posted there is no Reeves/Young situation and certainly not a John Idzik set up Rex Ryan to fail scenario.

Piratz, you make a valid point about the season ending finishes. That must have swayed Mara.

Tom your points about the Giants games this year are on target. As bad as they are, they certainly should have at least two more wins and maybe 3 or 4 and you can pin that on the coaches. But some of it is on the players too. They do have some talent but not enough. And apparently not enough to get a key defensive stop in most of the close losses that is for sure. I'm still of the opinion that the coaching staff and GM have underperformed and need to go. I like Spags and what he has done with very little talent. The jury is out on McAdoo as the play calling is a little odd at times especially with the forced RB by committee stuff. So I'm not sure their head coach in waiting strategy with McAdoo is on schedule. They still can make the playoffs but won't go very far so can em all and start fresh I say.

 

[Piratz]

There's a lot of football left to be played. A lot can happen over 5 games in a 16-game season.

McAdoo is leaving a lot to be desired too. On that very good opening drive they were establishing a good pace and tempo with Jennings and Veeren. They ran the ball 4 times for 24 yards. Then on a 3rd and 6 there's a classic Giants delay-of-game making it 3rd and long before the Vereen dropped pass that turned into an INT.

Anyway, then the second drive here we go with Williams running into people on consecutive plays. Why? You ran for 24 yards and 6/carry on the first drive. Stay with it.

Next, on the third drive Darkwa comes in and here we go again.

I mean, what the heck? What is this carousel of RB's? Remember Earth, Wind, & Fire? They had a purpose. This? This is a mess.

 

[TomD82]

You are what your record is and the simple truth is that the Giants have made the playoffs once in the past six years and that's on Reese, Coughlin and Mara . Even worse this Giant team doesn't have the pieces to say that they're a team on an uptick and just need a few pieces to compete quite the opposite they have far more needs then answers with their roster.

How many players can you say are impact players. Manning and ODB on offense, JPP on defense. No one on the OL. No one at RB , No one at TE or WR. On the DL I like Hankins but who else is a difference maker, the same at LB or in the secondary although Kennard could become a solid LB.

No running game, WR's , other then ODB , who are inconsistent or don't drop passes and don't run the right routes , no quality TE and a porous OL. There was a reason why ODB was targeted 18 times yesterday because the other WR'S and TE's are unreliable. That's just some of the issues with the offense.

No pass rush on defense , a secondary who can't defend, especially deep , LB's who can't pass defend and a DL that can't get a stop when they need it.

Given the above how can anyone argue for Reese to be back he's the guy who put this team together.

Shane Vereen and Jennings are not legit impact RBs? They were for the Pats and Raiders. Harris is not a good WR and excellent impact KO and PR man (especially if the dam coaching staff instruct him to not field the last punt)? Will Tye 6 catches for 74 yards yesterday. Justin Tuck was even willing to give the team a home town discount and the entire organization said don't let the 2 SB trophies hit you on the way out. Randle looked pretty good on that 4th and 16 TD. That's on the coaching staff to get him to run the right route every time. The guy who holds the purse strings said on JPP and Rolle we want them back, but only at the right price hence the franchise tag on JPP. I already mentioned Tuck and he only wanted 2 years 8M. He got 10M from the Raiders

3 OL men out with injuries yesterday and McAdoo knew all about Newhouse from Green Bay. Funny how that team Reese put together is still able to compete virtually every week .That said the organization is going to have to change from top to bottom on how they view, evaluate and draft OL, DL and LBs. As an organization they simply won't draft Shane Ray, Vic Beasley, Randy Gregory, Sean Lee and huge bad ass OG types.

 

[Piratz]

hallgrad80, one thing about having missed the playoffs in 5 of 6 seasons is that 2 of them missed were actually winning seasons (10-6 in 2010, 9-7 in 2012), and of course the one year they did make it they won the Super Bowl. So if you told me the next coach would have 3 winning seasons out of 6 with a SB title, I'll take it! LOL

That said, I look beginning with the offseason into 2013. They banked on aging vets on the lines, zero veteran running back depth, and totally overlooked the need for a blocking TE. Look what happened. The lines collapsed. They waited too long to start drafting top linemen, which they started doing that year and every year since. That's where those bad drafts starting showing themselves, particularly on the lines.

Then they had to spend $100M going into 2014 and were chasing all kinds of depth.

I think Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers will be good, but they need time.

 

[hallgrad80]

Shane Vereen and Jennings are not legit impact RBs? They were for the Pats and Raiders. Harris is not a good WR and excellent impact KO and PR man (especially if the dam coaching staff instruct him to not field the last punt)? Will Tye 6 catches for 74 yards yesterday. Justin Tuck was even willing to give the team a home town discount and the entire organization said don't let the 2 SB trophies hit you on the way out. Randle looked pretty good on that 4th and 16 TD. That's on the coaching staff to get him to run the right route every time. The guy who holds the purse strings said on JPP and Rolle we want them back, but only at the right price hence the franchise tag on JPP. I already mentioned Tuck and he only wanted 2 years 8M. He got 10M from the Raiders

3 OL men out with injuries yesterday and McAdoo knew all about Newhouse from Green Bay. Funny how that team Reese put together is still able to compete virtually every week .That said the organization is going to have to change from top to bottom on how they view, evaluate and draft OL, DL and LBs. As an organization they simply won't draft Shane Ray, Vic Beasley, Randy Gregory, Sean Lee and huge bad ass OG types.

Tom
Jennings and Vereen are not impact RB's they are solid RB's not 1,000 yard rushers. Vereen was brought in primarily to give Eli a third down option as none of the RB's on the roster were good catching the ball coming out of the backfield and his getting more touches on running plays is due to the quality of play of the other RB's. I personally believe that the effectiveness of Jennings and Williams has been negatively effected by rushing by committee that TC is using. I do like Vereen as a KO and PR for this team. One of my big knocks on Reese is that he never gets creative in adding extra picks in the draft or moving up to draft a player to fill a position of need and I was floored when he moved up to get Collins and he should have been doing that when the Giants were drafting late in the first and second round.

I think we all agree that Reese's philosophy on the value of the role of the linebackers has led to leave us woefully short of talent at that position. In the last 10 drafts beginning in 2006 the Giants have drafted 9 LB's , 8 of them on Reese's watch and other then Kennard in 2014 , who I think will be a good one, none became the answer or made large contributions although Goff did play well at times.

Piratz
I think Richburg will prove to be the best of that trio followed closely by Flowers , then Pugh giving the Giants a core but the other two positions need to be addressed as well. In looking at some of the 2016 mock drafts the concensus is a DE in round 1 and an OL or DB in round two.