OT: NY Giants' Stretch Run

[Piratz]

Piratz
I think Richburg will prove to be the best of that trio followed closely by Flowers , then Pugh giving the Giants a core but the other two positions need to be addressed as well. In looking at some of the 2016 mock drafts the concensus is a DE in round 1 and an OL or DB in round two.

I think the offense will be OK with some tweaks, especially another target to tandem with OBJ. Enough of Randle and relying on Cruz. Agreed on the line. Beatty should be recovered and likely need to try to get his cap number down and bring him back and find another.

The defense is in need of a total personnel overhaul. The only pieces worth keeping are the corners (I'd re-sign Prince), Kennard, Hankins, Moore, and Collins (he'll get better and will help if there's a good cover safety with him). Have to hope the kids Bromley and Odighizhua amount to something for the rotation.

 

[its haLL baLL]

There's a lot of football left to be played. A lot can happen over 5 games in a 16-game season.

McAdoo is leaving a lot to be desired too. On that very good opening drive they were establishing a good pace and tempo with Jennings and Veeren. They ran the ball 4 times for 24 yards. Then on a 3rd and 6 there's a classic Giants delay-of-game making it 3rd and long before the Vereen dropped pass that turned into an INT.

Anyway, then the second drive here we go with Williams running into people on consecutive plays. Why? You ran for 24 yards and 6/carry on the first drive. Stay with it.

Next, on the third drive Darkwa comes in and here we go again.

I mean, what the heck? What is this carousel of RB's? Remember Earth, Wind, & Fire? They had a purpose. This? This is a mess.

Andre Williams is not an NFL running back. To echo one of Tom's points, it is on the coaching staff to stop playing him. He offers ZERO.

 

[its haLL baLL]

Shane Vereen and Jennings are not legit impact RBs? They were for the Pats and Raiders. Harris is not a good WR and excellent impact KO and PR man (especially if the dam coaching staff instruct him to not field the last punt)? Will Tye 6 catches for 74 yards yesterday. Justin Tuck was even willing to give the team a home town discount and the entire organization said don't let the 2 SB trophies hit you on the way out. Randle looked pretty good on that 4th and 16 TD. That's on the coaching staff to get him to run the right route every time. The guy who holds the purse strings said on JPP and Rolle we want them back, but only at the right price hence the franchise tag on JPP. I already mentioned Tuck and he only wanted 2 years 8M. He got 10M from the Raiders

3 OL men out with injuries yesterday and McAdoo knew all about Newhouse from Green Bay. Funny how that team Reese put together is still able to compete virtually every week .That said the organization is going to have to change from top to bottom on how they view, evaluate and draft OL, DL and LBs. As an organization they simply won't draft Shane Ray, Vic Beasley, Randy Gregory, Sean Lee and huge bad ass OG types.

They are able to compete every week because the entire league is TERRIBLE.That has nothing to do with talent, coaching, etc. The quality of football is the worst I have ever seen, which is the only reason the Giants are still in playoff contention.

 

[hallgrad80]

I have throughly enjoyed the debate on this thread and it reminds me of the discussions we had when this board first started and the main topics were recruiting, the merits of the players we recruited or signed and dissecting the games and how the players performed. No acrimony, no attacking other posters just a healthy exchange of each posters view with each poster supporting their position or disagreeing but still respecting the opposite view. Even in a thread that had considerable posts talking about who's at fault for much of what happened this year and whether there should be changes made with our coach and /or GM it was done the right way.

To all who have participated in this discussion thanks .

 

[TomD82]

The problem with this logic is you're giving Reese the credit for fielding a "competitive" team, but giving Coughlin the grief for the losses. Problem I have with that is I think the staff has coached up questionable talent and horrendous depth to be "competitive," especially in 2013 and 2014. They were besieged by injuries and had zero depth behind any of it because the drafts from 2010-12 were not good.

Unfortunately they couldn't close the deal against the Cowboys, Falcons, Saints, and Patriots, and I really don't want to debate what happened in those games because there are multiple offenders in each loss beyond just the head coach.

I would start fresh and remove both Coughlin and Reese if they team implodes. You're certainly not going to retain Coughlin and fire Reese. That's dyfunctional. I do not think Coughlin should return if the team does not rally and win the division. If they do, he's earned it.

Meanwhile Dave Gettleman is 11-0 and built a defense.

If the talent on these Giants teams were at the level of Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, Tennessee I would have no problem putting all the blame on Reese, but its not. Is the GM supposed to coach the team also? You guys even post things like he did nothing at safety when he moved up to the 1st pick of the 2nd around to get one. Or it's his fault Walter Thurmond who was an integral part of a championship defense gets signed as a FA and tears his pectoral muscle it's the GM's fault. Is Hankins pectoral tear Reese's fault, too?

If I were Jerry Reese last year I would have done what George Young asked of Bill Parcells after going 3-12-1 and having over a dozen players on IR. Show me your plan for turning this thing around. But, I don't think Reese has authority like Young did.

And if you ask me requiring players to sit up straight in, be 5 minutes early to team meetings and not sit on their helmet during practice doesn't cut it any longer.

 

[bd98]

I understand why they got rid of him and agree with their doing so but man watching Will Hill last night and comparing that to what the Giants run out there at safety...

 

[Piratz]

I understand why they got rid of him and agree with their doing so but man watching Will Hill last night and comparing that to what the Giants run out there at safety...

I think of the same thing every time he makes a big play, every time I see how highly rated he is in various assessments, and so on and so forth. Think PFF had him as the top cover safety earlier this year, FWIW.

sigh.

With Hill at safety and a healthy Beason at LB, the team actually had good defense in the middle of the field that season (2013).

 

[its haLL baLL]

I think of the same thing every time he makes a big play, every time I see how highly rated he is in various assessments, and so on and so forth. Think PFF had him as the top cover safety earlier this year, FWIW.

sigh.

With Hill at safety and a healthy Beason at LB, the team actually had good defense in the middle of the field that season (2013).

Hill needed to get as far away from New Jersey as possible, but man could we use him right now. I hope he's turned his life around. The kid is immensely talented.

 

[Piratz]

Definitely sounds that way, hallball. Too many distractions here that he just could not pull himself up out of, unfortunately.

Seems like he's done well for himself. Ravens did give him a 2-year, $7M deal this summer after his strong 2014.

 

[hbkmyr]

If the talent on these Giants teams were at the level of Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, Tennessee I would have no problem putting all the blame on Reese, but its not. Is the GM supposed to coach the team also? You guys even post things like he did nothing at safety when he moved up to the 1st pick of the 2nd around to get one. Or it's his fault Walter Thurmond who was an integral part of a championship defense gets signed as a FA and tears his pectoral muscle it's the GM's fault. Is Hankins pectoral tear Reese's fault, too?

If I were Jerry Reese last year I would have done what George Young asked of Bill Parcells after going 3-12-1 and having over a dozen players on IR. Show me your plan for turning this thing around. But, I don't think Reese has authority like Young did.

And if you ask me requiring players to sit up straight in, be 5 minutes early to team meetings and not sit on their helmet during practice doesn't cut it any longer.

This is all true, but it also works both ways. Is it Coughlin's fault Hosley can't cover anyone. Do you think he specifically told him to leave Jackson wide open down the field? Is it Coughlin's fault Unga also couldn't cover anyone and left Witten wide open in the end zone? Sure, he moved up in the draft to pick a safety, but one who has been disappointing so far.

I understand the coach has input in roster make up, but if Coughlin has so much control of the roster, what exactly is Reese's job then. And I could make an arguement the talent on this team is at the level of Jacksonville and Tampa Bay.

 

[TomD82]

Hill needed to get as far away from New Jersey as possible, but man could we use him right now. I hope he's turned his life around. The kid is immensely talented.

Yeah it sure sounds like it was more than positive PED tests. I think there was a domestic violence incident also. But, the Giants usually give players second chances. Christian Peter, Tito Wooten and Plax come to mind. And as you say especially when they are that talented.

 

[Section112]

Apparently the Giants had a shadow (low level coach) on Will Hill all the time and he still managed to get into trouble. And the Giants gave him three chances before they booted him (he had two incidents with the Giants with failed drug tests plus the domestic violence incident). He had to go and was a known risk when they signed him. Kid had troubles in HS and college.

A change of scenery was what he needed to get away from some local distractions but boy could we use him. Kid is crazy athletic. My friends son went to St Peters with him and said he is a freak athletically and a nice kid. But he also said he is not the brightest (he used different words) and he constantly finds and gets into trouble and loves smoking weed. Said the coaches at St Pete's downplayed a lot of stuff that went on with him in High School because he was so gifted on the field.

 

[Piratz]

The problem the coach is going to have with many fans (and maybe even the ownership at this point) is how they've lost games the past two seasons. The blown 21-0 game in Jacksonville last year and the home losses to the Cowboys (93-yard drive when Romo had 7 seconds each drop back, LOL) and 49ers (goal-to-go to put them ahead late and they ran 3 fades).

Or the 4 losses this season where they led with 2 minutes to play.

Those are really horrendous losses when you're talking about a 6-10 and 5-6 teams. They're painful and agonizing ways to lose. This is what fans cannot get past because they look at just those as miscalculations that held the team back.

I think they're competitive because the coach is squeezing a lot out of them but they're so fundamentally flawed in some key areas (running/defense) that holding leads or winning consistently is hard because they're a one-trick pony as a roster. I do not think they're losing games because of the coach.

Tom needs to rally this team. He has done that repeatedly over the course of his 12 seasons here and it needs to happen again. They have now lost 3 of 4. Learn something from the Redskins game. Let's see a spark and sustained improvement over the final 5 games. Start with the Jets and Dolphins, two winnable games.

Rally to win the division, host a playoff game, and they've both earned the right to return. Implode and Tom is definitely gone, Reese likely stays.

 

[its haLL baLL]

Apparently the Giants had a shadow (low level coach) on Will Hill all the time and he still managed to get into trouble. And the Giants gave him three chances before they booted him (he had two incidents with the Giants with failed drug tests plus the domestic violence incident). He had to go and was a known risk when they signed him. Kid had troubles in HS and college.

A change of scenery was what he needed to get away from some local distractions but boy could we use him. Kid is crazy athletic. My friends son went to St Peters with him and said he is a freak athletically and a nice kid. But he also said he is not the brightest (he used different words) and he constantly finds and gets into trouble and loves smoking weed. Said the coaches at St Pete's downplayed a lot of stuff that went on with him in High School because he was so gifted on the field.

Yeah, I know someone who roomed with and played in an All-State game with Hill his senior year. He said, "I know you can't become physically addicted to pot, but this kid is as close as you can get."

 

[its haLL baLL]

The problem the coach is going to have with many fans (and maybe even the ownership at this point) is how they've lost games the past two seasons. The blown 21-0 game in Jacksonville last year and the home losses to the Cowboys (93-yard drive when Romo had 7 seconds each drop back, LOL) and 49ers (goal-to-go to put them ahead late and they ran 3 fades).

Or the 4 losses this season where they led with 2 minutes to play.

Those are really horrendous losses when you're talking about a 6-10 and 5-6 teams. They're painful and agonizing ways to lose. This is what fans cannot get past because they look at just those as miscalculations that held the team back.

I think they're competitive because the coach is squeezing a lot out of them but they're so fundamentally flawed in some key areas (running/defense) that holding leads or winning consistently is hard because they're a one-trick pony as a roster. I do not think they're losing games because of the coach.

Tom needs to rally this team. He has done that repeatedly over the course of his 12 seasons here and it needs to happen again. They have now lost 3 of 4. Learn something from the Redskins game. Let's see a spark and sustained improvement over the final 5 games. Start with the Jets and Dolphins, two winnable games.

Rally to win the division, host a playoff game, and they've both earned the right to return. Implode and Tom is definitely gone, Reese likely stays.

You think they'd fire Coughlin and keep Reese? I think their fates are tied together, personally.

 

[Piratz]

You think they'd fire Coughlin and keep Reese? I think their fates are tied together, personally.

I would tie them as well, but yes, I do think it's more likely Reese is retained and Coughlin is not if they implode. Although I don't think John Mara is Wellington Mara, so all bets are off. It's tricky with Reese:

1). Reese had to shell out $100M in contracts in 2014 with a wild FA spending spree because of the admitted poor drafts from 2010-12 left the team unprepared when the aging core collapsed in 2013 (Snee, Diehl, Baas, Jacobs, Webster, Ross, Kiwanuka, Tuck, and the Will Hill/David Wilson situations).

That was uncharacteristic of the Giants. And what was the return? Too many injury busts and poor performances (Schwartz, Jennings, Thurmond, Walton, Ayers, McClain,etc.). They've even changed coordinators and systems in both seasons and the team that promptly has gone 11-16 since with arguably the worst running games and defenses in the league over that span, fundamental areas needed to be addressed in FA to begin with! That never flies well with ownership.

2). But they did make internal changes in how they were going to draft beginning in 2013 and the past 3 drafts have been better, so that accounts for something.

3). The Giants are in good position this offseason in terms of tte cap. It'd be ideal for a new GM/coach combo to make their roster.

 

[hallgrad80]

Lots of blame to go around and it includes Reese, his staff, his scouts, Coughlin, his coordinators and assistant coaches , the players and both owners. There comes a time when you not only have to rebuild your front office and the coaching staff and rethink how the organization makes its decisions from how it evaluates talent, to how it makes its draft decisions, to how well or poorly it handles its cap space to how you use the draft and free agency to build a winning roster. For me that time is here and perhaps the most important question becomes what Mara and Tisch decide to do.

 

[Piratz]

And let's finally put some emphasis on drafting LB's. With what this league has become with the ends and middle open, you must have strong play in there.

 

[TomD82]

This is all true, but it also works both ways. Is it Coughlin's fault Hosley can't cover anyone. Do you think he specifically told him to leave Jackson wide open down the field? Is it Coughlin's fault Unga also couldn't cover anyone and left Witten wide open in the end zone? Sure, he moved up in the draft to pick a safety, but one who has been disappointing so far.

I understand the coach has input in roster make up, but if Coughlin has so much control of the roster, what exactly is Reese's job then. And I could make an arguement the talent on this team is at the level of Jacksonville and Tampa Bay.

We disagree on the talent level that is fine. But it is a fact that this coach has squeezed losses out of the talent pool for 2 years now and has had some debacles that make Rex Ryan and Herm Edwards looks like great game strategists and clock managers.

What's Reese' job here? I'd like to ask John Mara the same thing. After one 3-12-1 season Young could ask Parcells show me your turnaround plan. Young could bypass Bill Belichick for Ray Handley. Nobody can make a move on this coach for years now.

 

[hallgrad80]

Piratz
You're right the last two or three drafts have been better but still a couple of misses in the premier rounds 2,3,&4 but a grand slam with ODB and a HR with Richburg. On the negative side misses with Williams at RB and Nassib both in the 4th round

 

[Piratz]

Piratz
You're right the last two or three drafts have been better but still a couple of misses in the premier rounds 2,3,&4 but a grand slam with ODB and a HR with Richburg. On the negative side misses with Williams at RB and Nassib both in the 4th round

I like the past 3. Remember all the big deal made about drafting certain kinds of players and changing of philosophy? I think it's worked.

To me he's gotten 6 quality players over these past 3 drafts who will be long term, good starters for the team regardless of coaching/scheme. Still a bit below the threshold I think you really need to have to be good (minimum 3 long term starters/key rotation players per draft), but nevertheless much improved and could turn out better if the wild cards develop.

2013 = Pugh and Hankins (not counting Moore, but remains a wildcard if he can figure out the mental part of the game; same issue as Randle)

2014 = Beckham, Richburg, and Kennard (Bromely is the wildcard)

2015 = Flowers and Collins (Odighizhua is the wildcard)

Takes time. Have to give them 2-3 seasons to develop. We're not seeing that development out of the 2010, 2011, and 2012 classes and it's really hurting the team.

2010 = JPP and then literally nothing
2011 = Prince and then literally nothing
2012 = Randle and Hosley, who have really disappointed in their key roles, and then nothing again (Wilson not his fault and what about the "JPP of Tight Ends", LOL?)

You pay for years like that.

 

[hallgrad80]

Piratz
I agree with your assessment and wanted to add one small observation. I think the biggest problem with Moore who, IMO , has a world of talent is TC. I believe there's absolutely a total disconnect between the two and if Moore walks when he's a free agent , he'll become a high quality player. You can't have three unproductive draft classes in a row and expect to build a SB contender and when you add in poor free agent signings it only makes it worse.

 

[Section112]

I like the past 3. Remember all the big deal made about drafting certain kinds of players and changing of philosophy? I think it's worked.

To me he's gotten 6 quality players over these past 3 drafts who will be long term, good starters for the team regardless of coaching/scheme. Still a bit below the threshold I think you really need to have to be good (minimum 3 long term starters/key rotation players per draft), but nevertheless much improved and could turn out better if the wild cards develop.

2013 = Pugh and Hankins (not counting Moore, but remains a wildcard if he can figure out the mental part of the game; same issue as Randle)

2014 = Beckham, Richburg, and Kennard (Bromely is the wildcard)

2015 = Flowers and Collins (Odighizhua is the wildcard)

Takes time. Have to give them 2-3 seasons to develop. We're not seeing that development out of the 2010, 2011, and 2012 classes and it's really hurting the team.

2010 = JPP and then literally nothing
2011 = Prince and then literally nothing
2012 = Randle and Hosley, who have really disappointed in their key roles, and then nothing again (Wilson not his fault and what about the "JPP of Tight Ends", LOL?)

You pay for years like that.

We are paying for those terrible years that is for sure and even though the last three drafts have been better they are probably middle of the road at best. No huge contributors in late rounds - no diamonds in the rough.

It amazes me that we have never improved at LB. We have also been down one safety every year that Rolle was here. He kept things together for us but how many years in a row have we been weak at that other safety position even with WIll Hill. The Stevie Brown years were not good and everyone knew we needed more depth there. And the TE position year after year is a struggle and then we get a good one and can't keep him here. And in the NFC East the offensive line is critically important especially with a non mobile QB like Eli and we are still struggling for 3 years at least. Very strange. One step forward and two back each year. I agree with Tom that our coaching needs to be better and needs a change. But the GM position for the Giants has been a disaster IMO.

 

[Piratz]

Piratz
I agree with your assessment and wanted to add one small observation. I think the biggest problem with Moore who, IMO , has a world of talent is TC. I believe there's absolutely a total disconnect between the two and if Moore wakes when he's a free agent , he'll become a high quality player. You can't have three unproductive draft classes in a row and expect to build a SB contender and when you add in poor free agent signings it only makes it worse.

Something's not right there. It's the same as Randle. Moore's skill set is more unique though. Neither of them seem like they understand or have the mental part of the game down which is really unfortunate because if they did, imagine what both would be doing for this team.

Is it Coughlin? Could be. Is it their lack of maturity? Could be. Maybe a change of scenery wakes them both up because Tom and his coaches cannot connect. Maybe years down the road they admit they just weren't mature enough to improve with the Giants and needed a wake-up call. I don't know.

But both are talented guys that are wasting away and the team desperately needs a threat alongside OBJ and a pass rush. Huge opportunities to cash-in for both are being blown because they cannot play functionally despite the raw talent.

 

[TomD82]

Looks like he is toast! Or maybe not if you read further. LOL!

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/cel...rk_ridge_home_for_sale.html#incart_river_home

 

[Piratz]

Maybe these tough losses have gotten to him too!! LOL

He's overseen an exciting era of Giants football and brought home two championships. His name will go on the Ring of Honor and very well deserved.

Maybe this could be a rallying cry for the team. Lead them to one final playoff push and head off into the sunset on a high note, rebuilding the team to some success one more time.

 

[hbkmyr]

We disagree on the talent level that is fine. But it is a fact that this coach has squeezed losses out of the talent pool for 2 years now and has had some debacles that make Rex Ryan and Herm Edwards looks like great game strategists and clock managers.

What's Reese' job here? I'd like to ask John Mara the same thing. After one 3-12-1 season Young could ask Parcells show me your turnaround plan. Young could bypass Bill Belichick for Ray Handley. Nobody can make a move on this coach for years now.

I'm not debating Coughlin has not done a bad job. As noted earlier, even if you question the talent level, the team was in position to win several games and couldn't get it done. That falls squarely on his shoulder. In fact, I thought he should have been gone last year, but I think after switching to Mcadoo's system, they didn't want Eli to have to learn a different offense after one year.

 

[Burnsly]

The reason they couldn't get it done is because they can't run the ball. Their O line stinks & that's on Reese. The only guy on the line worth keeping is Flowers.

 

[Piratz]

The reason they couldn't get it done is because they can't run the ball. Their O line stinks & that's on Reese. The only guy on the line worth keeping is Flowers.

Richburg and Pugh have done well on the inside this year alongside Flowers on the LH side. They really have. They're going to continue to get better. Problem is on the RH side Schwartz was ho-hum and Newhouse literally one of the worst in the league by any measure.

Plus don't think there's been much TE blocking to be had.

 

[hallgrad80]

Maybe these tough losses have gotten to him too!! LOL

He's overseen an exciting era of Giants football and brought home two championships. His name will go on the Ring of Honor and very well deserved.

Maybe this could be a rallying cry for the team. Lead them to one final playoff push and head off into the sunset on a high note, rebuilding the team to some success one more time.[/QUOTE

I give Reese little credit for the first Super Bowl win. 21 of the 22 starters on that team were Accorsi's picks or free agent signees with the lone Reese starter Kevin Boss and Bradshaw , another Reese pick didn't start but played well in that game. Every O and D lineman, every LB, every DB, every WR , the starting RB's and the QB was there because of Accorsi.

 

[TomD82]

The reason they couldn't get it done is because they can't run the ball. Their O line stinks & that's on Reese. The only guy on the line worth keeping is Flowers.

I agree on Flowers, but I think Richburg is a natural center and is/ will be above average. In the McAdoo scheme they want a center you can pull and also get outside on screens and quick hit pass plays.

To Piratz's point on LBs I totally agree. Kennard looks like a player, but they won't even draft a Von Miller and certainly not a Bruce Irvine like Seattle. They insist on all these big boxy type DE and LBs and lighter nimble OLs. This organization has to get more team speed on defense for sure.

 

[Burnsly]

Sorry to disagree with you Piratz but Richburg & Pugh have not done well this year. They've been manhandled in just about every game. There's a reason why the Giants can't get their rushing game going and those two guys are a big part of it. Unfortunately you can't eat up the clock if you can't run the ball & TC & McAdoo realize this.

 

[its haLL baLL]

Pro Football Focus' Offensive Line Rankings through week 8:

15. New York Giants (12th)
Pass blocking rank: 22nd

Run blocking rank: 8th

Penalties rank: T-2nd

Stud: Its been a nice transition to guard for Justin Pugh (86.8), with the position looking like a natural fit for him.

Dud: It’s amazing: year after year, a new team takes a chance on Marshal Newhouse (32.9). It never goes well.

Summary: Tackle has been where the team has struggled. The loss of Will Beatty has forced Ereck Flowers (39.3) into a spot he’s not ready for, and Newhouse into one he’ll never handle. The interior is a fine group, though.

 

[Piratz]

Sorry to disagree with you Piratz but Richburg & Pugh have not done well this year. They've been manhandled in just about every game. There's a reason why the Giants can't get their rushing game going and those two guys are a big part of it. Unfortunately you can't eat up the clock if you can't run the ball & TC & McAdoo realize this.

In watching the games I often have seen the problems coming from the right side or the edges. Usually their best runs are up the gut on spread formations or delayed hand offs.

Secondly, they've graded pretty well. PFF isn't the be-all, end-all, but at least it's some tool. In addition to what hallball posted on Pugh, here's one from earlier this year on Richburg:


Seven teams have a second-year center as a starter; the one with the best pass blocking efficiency is Weston Richburg at 99.5 He has yet to allow a sack or hit, and has allowed just one hurry.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/10/06/pff-nfl-power-rankings-for-week-5/

 

[Section112]

I think Pugh has been playing hurt this year. I do think he will be OK in the long run. Richburg has potential and Flowers has the potential to be very good. That is the core for the future if they can stay healthy.

Beatty was absolutely terrible the last year and a half that he has played (not sure if folks remember that) and Reese overpaid him by a lot. Not so sure if he comes back or not but I would pass unless they can lower that salary by a lot. Newhouse and John Jerry have been awful and Schwartz when healthy has been adequate but no better for what he was being paid (with this latest break I think his career may be over). The O Line needs a lot of help and the depth that we have currently would not be second string on a lot of NFL teams. And Eli is not getting any quicker running out of the pocket unfortunately and we have him locked up for the next 4 years at least.

 

[TomD82]

112 you make some very good points. I don't see Flowers getting bull rushed the way Beatty was the last few years. Brian Orakpo and Connor Barwin killed Beatty. Flowers has struggled some against speed rushers, but even Carl Banks has said he has played well. Barwin and Kevin Hardy were moved to the right side and beat Schwartz and Newhouse this year. The Giants have tried to run in short yardage to the right over those two just because they are veterans I think and that clearly has not worked. I have no problem with a guy like Jerry though as a pure veteran backup you need some guys like him.

Reese has passed on so many OL in these past drafts like Gordy Glenn, Kevin Zeitler, Bobby Massey, Joel Biltino. They really could have used guys like that or signed a Mike Iupati. They just don't value these guys on their draft board it seems.

 

[Section112]

Agree Tom. It all starts with the offensive line. With time a QB like Eli can do some damage and a good line will make our RBs look so much better. We've been dealing with a problem O line for at least 3 years now which is really causing a lot of inconsistent results.

 

[Piratz]

I'm with all of you guys on the o-line. Always thought Beatty was always average. Seemed a bit smallish for a LT and his athleticism didn't make up for his strength. But I really do think there's a bright future there with the 3 recently-drafted guys mentioned in high rounds. It takes time though for them to develop and look at how they've had to move around Pugh and Richburg. Doesn't help.

Unfortunately the team waited too long to develop and address it, so they were caught with their pants down in 2013 when the line imploded. They'll need to do more this offseason. Need a vet on the RH side to likely replace Schwartz and the tackle on that side is a mess. Beatty is probably the guy for RT and he should be better there instead of on Eli's blindside.

Do you realize they have had literally one of the worst rushing attacks in the NFL for 3 consecutive seasons? It's a huge reason the team has been bad. Cannot control anything. Pure chuck-and-duck.

Yards/attempt
2015 = 27th
2014 = 30th
2013 = 30th

 

[Section112]

I'm with all of you guys on the o-line. Always thought Beatty was always average. Seemed a bit smallish for a LT and his athleticism didn't make up for his strength. But I really do think there's a bright future there with the 3 recently-drafted guys mentioned in high rounds. It takes time though for them to develop and look at how they've had to move around Pugh and Richburg. Doesn't help.

Unfortunately the team waited too long to develop and address it, so they were caught with their pants down in 2013 when the line imploded. They'll need to do more this offseason. Need a vet on the RH side to likely replace Schwartz and the tackle on that side is a mess. Beatty is probably the guy for RT and he should be better there instead of on Eli's blindside.

Do you realize they have had literally one of the worst rushing attacks in the NFL for 3 consecutive seasons? It's a huge reason the team has been bad. Cannot control anything. Pure chuck-and-duck.

Yards/attempt
2015 = 27th
2014 = 30th
2013 = 30th

Those stats are all you really need to see to tell you how badly the talent on the offensive line has been acquired and coached. Can't just point to injuries three years in a row.

 

[Piratz]

Those stats are all you really need to see to tell you how badly the talent on the offensive line has been acquired and coached. Can't just point to injuries three years in a row.

Here's where it crystallizes: Take those stats back one year back to 2012. The year after the SB when they had a really good team that should've made the playoffs if it wasn't for the worst D in the league. They were 7th in rushing yards/attempt.

What happened between 2012 and 2013? Well, go through the age of that line, the injuries in 2013, the retirements, the chaos, the lack of prep. The lack of a blocking TE after 2012 when Martellus Bennett and Bear Pascoe left was a killer too. Remember the beating Eli took in that 2013 year and 0-6 start? They got caught with the cupboard bare and are now chasing to replace. It's a timely process that started too late.

The coach they have - Pat Flannery - has been on Coughlin's staff for all 12 seasons and oversaw that those lines that won two titles. I think his line set a record for most consecutive games started as a unit between 2007-09 or something. That was the O'Hara, Seubert, Diehl, Snee, McKenzie group. And it took them time. Remember Theismann calling them the worst line in the league before they were fully developed?

If you can't find starters, you certainly can't find depth. It's been an abomination. A bunch of late-round gambles who turned out to be busts. The worst was when they had to go to Charles Brown last year against the 49ers. My God.

Anyway, hopefully it's on the upswing.